The Female Gaze

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

This is the part of the discussion that's interesting for me, too.

Thinking about gaze in terms of writing, especially writing porn and erotica (there's the old viewing eye dichotomy, again), is intriguing, especially where writing often has an internalising gaze: what's my gaze when I'm looking in at myself?

That's an interesting question because I'm not sure to what extent it's possible to think of one's self in a non-empathetic manner. Strictly speaking, the literal definition (able to understand the feelings of another) doesn't apply, but I think people are easily able to think of themselves in the spirit of empathy. I think that's the default inner gaze. So, abusing the definition of "empathy" due to lack of a better term, if men look at themselves empathetically, why isn't the outward male gaze empathetic?

Since we're talking about empathy as a defining characteristic of the female gaze, it might be worthwhile to consider that there are three types of empathy that are commonly described: cognitive empathy (non-emotional; simply the ability to put oneself in another's place, to see a situation from another's perspective, but without the other person's emotional context), emotional empathy (feeling the other person's feelings as if feeling one's own's feelings, such as the feeling behind crying because someone else is crying or laughing because someone else is laughing), and compassionate empathy (recognizing and understanding someone else's emotions, but not experiencing them as if they were ones own).

For the purposes of gaze, emotional empathy and compassionate empathy are probably indistinguishable, but I think a gaze based in cognitive empathy without the other two types would produce a different result. I wonder if watching/reading something created using a congnitively empathetic gaze would feel like "going through the motions?"

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I've received some adoring female gaze.

I've worked in the trades for many years, often in remote rural areas. I've definitely felt it grow as I've helped sort out troubles around the ranch, farm or home.

I've taught workshops for back-to-the-landers and had very amorous reviews written about my presentation.

I've played and sung for a rock-n-roll band and was amazed by how many switches that can flip. I often play at campfires or festivals and have often had to excuse myself from the attention. My wife gets a kick out of it when she sees girls or guys get interested in me when I perform. She's laughed about getting dirty looks from someone who has approached me while she's been standing by. Her gaze grows stronger when she sees someone else who is attracted to her guy.

I often get good female attention when I wear my kilt. A couple of my wife's friends have said it's a little intimidating to see a guy who is confident enough to wear one -- and very attractive. That reaction is much narrower but still there when I crossdress, unless I'm playing music. I can wear a short skirt and a corset and get great attention 'on-stage,' but I only get good energy about it from a few 'off-stage', and that often is more of a 'male gaze' kind if thing.

There is definitely something alluring about performing or doing something skillful that attracts the female gaze.

Although it was certainly a buzzkill for some, the strongest I ever felt the female gaze was when I was single and hanging out with my two year-old son.

Basically, the strongest female gaze I ever get seems to be when I'm doing something they want to be part of. Maybe that's true of male gaze too, it's just a matter of the gazer's interests.

There's definitely something very attractive about talent, and about a man demonstrating the ability to be a good father. I don't have kids and have never wanted kids, and I still think that's attractive. Not as attractive as the ability to be a good dog-dad or cat-dad, of course! (Am I the only one who thinks Jackson Galaxy is hot because of his cat whispering?) But I think what you're talking about is gaze in terms of attention, rather than gaze in terms of perspective. It sounds like you're speaking of literally being looked at with attraction, versus the approach to storytelling or way of viewing others and the world. Or did I misunderstand?

The comment that you find the level of attraction-based interest greatest when you are doing something people want to be a part of is interesting. I was always particularly attracted to men who have talents I do not have, but which I envy, like musicians and artists. I found those talents more attractive even than talents more important to me, like writing.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Have you ever watched Go Go Tales by Abel Ferrara? Would be curious to know your thoughts.

I have not. I'll put it on my list.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I've received some adoring female gaze.

I've worked in the trades for many years, often in remote rural areas. I've definitely felt it grow as I've helped sort out troubles around the ranch, farm or home.

I've taught workshops for back-to-the-landers and had very amorous reviews written about my presentation.

I've played and sung for a rock-n-roll band and was amazed by how many switches that can flip. I often play at campfires or festivals and have often had to excuse myself from the attention. My wife gets a kick out of it when she sees girls or guys get interested in me when I perform. She's laughed about getting dirty looks from someone who has approached me while she's been standing by. Her gaze grows stronger when she sees someone else who is attracted to her guy.

I often get good female attention when I wear my kilt. A couple of my wife's friends have said it's a little intimidating to see a guy who is confident enough to wear one -- and very attractive. That reaction is much narrower but still there when I crossdress, unless I'm playing music. I can wear a short skirt and a corset and get great attention 'on-stage,' but I only get good energy about it from a few 'off-stage', and that often is more of a 'male gaze' kind if thing.

There is definitely something alluring about performing or doing something skillful that attracts the female gaze.

Although it was certainly a buzzkill for some, the strongest I ever felt the female gaze was when I was single and hanging out with my two year-old son.

Basically, the strongest female gaze I ever get seems to be when I'm doing something they want to be part of. Maybe that's true of male gaze too, it's just a matter of the gazer's interests.

So, I think you are mixing a few things together here, and it's a little hard to piece them out, but if I get the gist of what you are saying, you see the female gaze as being about qualities the object of the gaze possesses, rather than mere physical attributes. Is that correct?

I'm a little confused because you also included the comments about the way women look at you when you cross dress or wear your kilt. In those cases, you seem to be talking about it more in terms of attraction to your appearance. Or are you saying that it's the courage and confidence you show that attracts their gaze?

 

[stickygirl]

I don't know how I missed this article before, but it's worth a read and has something for everyone: should we be bound by gender; does female gaze exist; examples of female gaze.... some interesting comment from cinematographers on the subject. The article suggests that no one is right or wrong: this isn't about point scoring one gender's views against another, but a yearning to create great work without resorting to stereotypes and that it isn't, despite it's name, exclusively about sight and eyes, but vision.

...and another from the Guardian, for completeness

 

[MelissaBaby]

That's an interesting question because I'm not sure to what extent it's possible to think of one's self in a non-empathetic manner. Strictly speaking, the literal definition (able to understand the feelings of another) doesn't apply, but I think people are easily able to think of themselves in the spirit of empathy. I think that's the default inner gaze.

Someone said in a comment on My Fall and Rise, and I'll paraphrase because I'm lazy (No, let's say busy) that it was the story of a young woman who felt great compassion for others learning how to find it for herself. That really spoke to me, and made me think of my story, and my life in a way I had not before. It wasn't easy for me to think of myself in a spirit of empathy. It's something I had to learn.

I think women tend to be more introspective than men. Men I have known, if they lay awake at night, seem to usually going through a form of performance anxiety. Did I do well at work today? Will I get that thing done tomorrow?" Women, I think, are more likely to lay awake thinking about their relationships, their feelings toward others.

Mister Rogers said that boys are fancy on the outside and girls are fancy on the inside. I actually used that quote in one of my stories. I think that's the fundamental basis of the difference in gaze, as in so much else. The male gaze projects it's desires outward, while the female draws them in.

 

[AlexBailey]

There's definitely something very attractive about talent, and about a man demonstrating the ability to be a good father. I don't have kids and have never wanted kids, and I still think that's attractive. Not as attractive as the ability to be a good dog-dad or cat-dad, of course! (Am I the only one who thinks Jackson Galaxy is hot because of his cat whispering?) But I think what you're talking about is gaze in terms of attention, rather than gaze in terms of perspective. It sounds like you're speaking of literally being looked at with attraction, versus the approach to storytelling or way of viewing others and the world. Or did I misunderstand?

The comment that you find the level of attraction-based interest greatest when you are doing something people want to be a part of is interesting. I was always particularly attracted to men who have talents I do not have, but which I envy, like musicians and artists. I found those talents more attractive even than talents more important to me, like writing.

@Meliassa too


I know I'm kind of hopping around on 'what sort of gaze' here, but I'm seeing it as all related. Gaze is perspective. It's what a person or an audience sees and what their attention focuses on.

If I'm understanding correctly;

* 'Male gaze' in a nutshell, is more likely to focus on physical attributes and relative appearance, with an eye toward short term possibilities. There is often a lot of ego attachment to 'winning' a particular object of desire.

* 'Female gaze' is more likely to focus on connection and potential for nurturing. There is often a focus on stability and 'grit' and more long-term goals.

Both concepts are generalizations and ends of a spectrum with most people of any gender having a mix of the two. It presents in story telling, cinema, personal attraction, even casual interaction or sometimes even in business transactions.





On another note, many years ago, long before she wrote Lost In Translation, I knew Sofia Coppola personally. That movie demonstrates her personality as I saw her. Patient and understated, observant to underlying dynamics and details. 'Female gaze'. When she was a kid, her dad Francis Ford Coppola, produced a piece for the three part movie; New York Stories. Sofia is credited with the story line in one part. It's also a good reflection of her perspective... as I knew it.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Someone said in a comment on My Fall and Rise, and I'll paraphrase because I'm lazy (No, let's say busy) that it was the story of a young woman who felt great compassion for others learning how to find it for herself. That really spoke to me, and made me think of my story, and my life in a way I had not before. It wasn't easy for me to think of myself in a spirit of empathy. It's something I had to learn.

I think women tend to be more introspective than men. Men I have known, if they lay awake at night, seem to usually going through a form of performance anxiety. Did I do well at work today? Will I get that thing done tomorrow?" Women, I think, are more likely to lay awake thinking about their relationships, their feelings toward others.

Mister Rogers said that boys are fancy on the outside and girls are fancy on the inside. I actually used that quote in one of my stories. I think that's the fundamental basis of the difference in gaze, as in so much else. The male gaze projects it's desires outward, while the female draws them in.

To me, that seems more like looking at oneself with compassion, as the comment indicated. Empathy is the foundation of compassion of course, because empathy is what prompts a compassionate response, but what I meant to address was the ability to recognize and understand feelings. Or do you feel you to did lack the capacity to recognize your feelings at that point in your life? Certainly, people have trouble sorting them out and often misidentify them. I wouldn't say they lack the capacity. But, I can see how someone could get to the point where they were so divorced from their feelings that they couldn't recognize them.

I didn't realize how great Mr. Rogers was until I read about the reason he always made a big deal out of feeding the fish in the aquarium on the set when he was leaving at the end of the show. A little girl wrote in, worrying about whether they got fed every day. She was blind, so when he fed the fish without commenting on it, she didn't know that they'd been fed. After that, he always said he was feeding the fish. I thought that was very sweet.

 

[MelissaBaby]

There's definitely something very attractive about talent, and about a man demonstrating the ability to be a good father. I don't have kids and have never wanted kids, and I still think that's attractive. Not as attractive as the ability to be a good dog-dad or cat-dad, of course! (Am I the only one who thinks Jackson Galaxy is hot because of his cat whispering?) But I think what you're talking about is gaze in terms of attention, rather than gaze in terms of perspective. It sounds like you're speaking of literally being looked at with attraction, versus the approach to storytelling or way of viewing others and the world. Or did I misunderstand?

The comment that you find the level of attraction-based interest greatest when you are doing something people want to be a part of is interesting. I was always particularly attracted to men who have talents I do not have, but which I envy, like musicians and artists. I found those talents more attractive even than talents more important to me, like writing.

I think you are really on to something. I don't believe in that "you complete me" nonsense, but I do think we subconsciously look for attributes in others that we wish we possessed ourselves.

My husband is a chef. I grew up on food stamps and church suppers. When I met him, I was enthralled with his culinary talents before I saw him in any overtly romantic or erotic light. He's a big guy. He boxed in the Air Force and he has hands like baked hams. I would watch him putting together cheeseboards and veggie trays, laying out each slice of cold cuts or piece of fruit into beautiful patterns, cutting tomatoes and cucumbers into elaborate garnishes shaped like swans or roses, delicately arranging each element into an elegant work of art, all with these big fucking Alley Oop hands, and I was just swept away.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

@Meliassa too


I know I'm kind of hopping around on 'what sort of gaze' here, but I'm seeing it as all related. Gaze is perspective. It's what a person or an audience sees and what their attention focuses on.

If I'm understanding correctly;

* 'Male gaze' in a nutshell, is more likely to focus on physical attributes and relative appearance, with an eye toward short term possibilities. There is often a lot of ego attachment to 'winning' a particular object of desire.

* 'Female gaze' is more likely to focus on connection and potential for nurturing. There is often a focus on stability and 'grit' and more long-term goals.

Both concepts are generalizations and ends of a spectrum with most people of any gender having a mix of the two. It presents in story telling, cinema, personal attraction, even casual interaction or sometimes even in business transactions...

I can connect your explanation to your earlier comment, so I think I see what you mean now. If I'm understanding now, you were addressing why, when you are viewed through the lens of female gaze, that gaze is more admiring when you demonstrate certain skills or attributes that are relevant to connection and long-term goals. So, you were emphasizing that you've noticed women become more attracted to you when you become more than a just a pretty face, and that's because they've noticed something about who you are that they like?

 

[AlexBailey]

In regards to my kilt; while some f/m see it as a guy wearing a skirt (make gaze?) others see it as courageous. (female gaze?) The attraction I get from it can come from either direction and sometimes both simultaneously.

Yes Nyx.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I think you are really on to something. I don't believe in that "you complete me" nonsense, but I do think we subconsciously look for attributes in others that we wish we possessed ourselves.

My husband is a chef. I grew up on food stamps and church suppers. When I met him, I was enthralled with his culinary talents before I saw him in any overtly romantic or erotic light. He's a big guy. He boxed in the Air Force and he has hands like baked hams. I would watch him putting together cheeseboards and veggie trays, laying out each slice of cold cuts or piece of fruit into beautiful patterns, cutting tomatoes and cucumbers into elaborate garnishes shaped like swans or roses, delicately arranging each element into an elegant work of art, all with these big fucking Alley Oop hands, and I was just swept away.

You cracked me up with the "Alley Oop hands." You described it so well that I could imagine him preparing things so beautifully. Watching people cut those kind of garinishes is fascinating. I imagine that preparing elegant food could be pretty attractive if boxed mac & cheese used to be your haute cuisine. (No disrespect to the mac & cheese intended!)

I like men's hands - not in a fetish sort of way, but I find them attractive. That's especially true if they're being used in a skilled way, or if there's something expressive about them. I always think it's neat watching a guy with great big hands doing something really intricate.

My husband gave me kind of the reverse reaction about the convenience of hand size. He was drawing something and the pencil looked so little in his hand and he was drawing something so tiny that his hand almost covered up, so I teased him, telling him I didn't know how he could do it with his great big paws. He said he didn't know how I managed to get anything done with my little tiny hands. (I have normal-sized hands.) I had never thought about smaller hands being less useful, and I guess he'd never thought about larger hands being less useful. Perspective!

 

[SimonDoom]

I think you are really on to something. I don't believe in that "you complete me" nonsense, but I do think we subconsciously look for attributes in others that we wish we possessed ourselves.

My husband is a chef. I grew up on food stamps and church suppers. When I met him, I was enthralled with his culinary talents before I saw him in any overtly romantic or erotic light. He's a big guy. He boxed in the Air Force and he has hands like baked hams. I would watch him putting together cheeseboards and veggie trays, laying out each slice of cold cuts or piece of fruit into beautiful patterns, cutting tomatoes and cucumbers into elaborate garnishes shaped like swans or roses, delicately arranging each element into an elegant work of art, all with these big fucking Alley Oop hands, and I was just swept away.

You're a talented writer. Just that little snippet about your husband gives me a vivid picture of him, and of your relationship and how you feel about him. You definitely have a gift.

 

[NotWise]

I like men's hands - not in a fetish sort of way, but I find them attractive. That's especially true if they're being used in a skilled way, or if there's something expressive about them. I always think it's neat watching a guy with great big hands doing something really intricate.

I once found a blog in which women talked about the masculine features they found most attractive. Big, rough hands were near the top of the list. I've used that in my stories several times.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I once found a blog in which women talked about the masculine features they found most attractive. Big, rough hands were near the top of the list. I've used that in my stories several times.

I like artistic-looking ones, too. Some men have hands that I can imagine playing a piano, whether or not they actually do. Some are long and almost elegant. I think the main thing is that they're expressive of something, or seem to be. It's kind of funny that some guys are hitting the gym for aesthetic reasons, but women are checking out their hands - and from the blog you referenced, they're appreciating hands that don't come with gym muscles.

 

[NotWise]

I like artistic-looking ones, too. Some men have hands that I can imagine playing a piano, whether or not they actually do. Some are long and almost elegant. I think the main thing is that they're expressive of something, or seem to be. It's kind of funny that some guys are hitting the gym for aesthetic reasons, but women are checking out their hands - and from the blog you referenced, they're appreciating hands that don't come with gym muscles.

But gym muscles might not be a downside. At least one of my daughters has a distinct preference for well-muscled men. She had a boyfriend who's biceps were bigger around than her thighs, and her husband set the state record (for his system, age and weight class) in the dead lift.

YMMV.

 

[stickygirl]

I like artistic-looking ones, too. Some men have hands that I can imagine playing a piano, whether or not they actually do. Some are long and almost elegant. I think the main thing is that they're expressive of something, or seem to be. It's kind of funny that some guys are hitting the gym for aesthetic reasons, but women are checking out their hands - and from the blog you referenced, they're appreciating hands that don't come with gym muscles.

Hands will often give away someone's mood better than their words or face. When I'm 'reading' someone I pay a lot of attention to hands and the dance they make. Hands are easier to look at than faces, to me.

I enjoyed Melissa's description too and although I've worked with a chef who was a horrible bully, I put it down to his perfection and frustration. Cooking is a pretty empathetic activity in that you make something for other people's pleasure and hopefully your own.

The reactions Alex had from audience sound atypical simply because 'guy in a frock' messes with people's moral/social compass. It's fun, but uncharacteristic of people in general. It sounds as though his on-stage performance and demeanour would let him get away with it. Would you agree Alex? In general strangers love to single out an individual and 'other' them, which seldom ends happily.

 

[MelissaBaby]

To me, that seems more like looking at oneself with compassion, as the comment indicated. Empathy is the foundation of compassion of course, because empathy is what prompts a compassionate response, but what I meant to address was the ability to recognize and understand feelings. Or do you feel you to did lack the capacity to recognize your feelings at that point in your life? Certainly, people have trouble sorting them out and often misidentify them. I wouldn't say they lack the capacity. But, I can see how someone could get to the point where they were so divorced from their feelings that they couldn't recognize them.

I think that it's an addict thing. You develop a divorce from yourself. The guilt, the shame, the self loathing, create a divide within you. It's a survival mechanism. If that was you, really you, that stole from your grandmother to buy drugs, that lost your job because you came in high, that sucked that guy's dick for an eight ball, you couldn't get through a day. No, you're not really like that. You watch yourself do things you would never imagine you would do, yet you somehow find a way to separate it from who you really are.

Thank you for giving me that compassion/empathy distinction to mull over.

 

[MelissaBaby]

You cracked me up with the "Alley Oop hands." You described it so well that I could imagine him preparing things so beautifully. Watching people cut those kind of garinishes is fascinating. I imagine that preparing elegant food could be pretty attractive if boxed mac & cheese used to be your haute cuisine. (No disrespect to the mac & cheese intended!)

I like men's hands - not in a fetish sort of way, but I find them attractive. That's especially true if they're being used in a skilled way, or if there's something expressive about them. I always think it's neat watching a guy with great big hands doing something really intricate.

My husband gave me kind of the reverse reaction about the convenience of hand size. He was drawing something and the pencil looked so little in his hand and he was drawing something so tiny that his hand almost covered up, so I teased him, telling him I didn't know how he could do it with his great big paws. He said he didn't know how I managed to get anything done with my little tiny hands. (I have normal-sized hands.) I had never thought about smaller hands being less useful, and I guess he'd never thought about larger hands being less useful. Perspective!

Big hands gaze.

 

[MelissaBaby]

You're a talented writer. Just that little snippet about your husband gives me a vivid picture of him, and of your relationship and how you feel about him. You definitely have a gift.

That's very kind, Simon. Thank you.

 

[davet_1_1]

My husband is a chef. I grew up on food stamps and church suppers. When I met him, I was enthralled with his culinary talents before I saw him in any overtly romantic or erotic light. He's a big guy. He boxed in the Air Force and he has hands like baked hams. I would watch him putting together cheeseboards and veggie trays, laying out each slice of cold cuts or piece of fruit into beautiful patterns, cutting tomatoes and cucumbers into elaborate garnishes shaped like swans or roses, delicately arranging each element into an elegant work of art, all with these big fucking Alley Oop hands, and I was just swept away.

I don't have much to add beyond saying this description was a delight to read.

 

[AlexBailey]

The reactions Alex had from audience sound atypical simply because 'guy in a frock' messes with people's moral/social compass. It's fun, but uncharacteristic of people in general. It sounds as though his on-stage performance and demeanour would let him get away with it. Would you agree Alex? In general strangers love to single out an individual and 'other' them, which seldom ends happily.

Hi Sticky,

Well, I do live in California. Trans folk are not uncommon in our community. My wife’s boss is non-gender, among my adult childrens’ peers there are at least six trans girls and boys — including two ex-girlfriends who are now boys, so I’m just a late bloomer.

I’m pretty open about my non-binary status and often dress publicly in a hybrid sort of way, though few who I would not consider ‘friends’ would know. I’m careful about not being out alone. I do not pass when my face is showing.

That’s the one nice thing about the Covid lockdown, I’ve gone to the store enfemme with a mask without any issues. Someone observant like you though —checking hands? Yikes! Lol.

Before the lockdowns I went to a cross dressers’ night club in San Francisco. There were several other people like me who don’t pass. A bunch of us were sharing drinks at a table, basking in openness like turtles on a log when I looked around at all of the strong hands and hairy forearms. Whew! You know you’re queer when the combination of lace and snaggled fingernails turns you on!

Great thread, girl!

 

[stickygirl]

Hi Sticky,
Whew! You know you’re queer when the combination of lace and snaggled fingernails turns you on!

You're outrageous

 

[MelissaBaby]

I don't have much to add beyond saying this description was a delight to read.

Thank you.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Hi Sticky,

Well, I do live in California. Trans folk are not uncommon in our community. My wife’s boss is non-gender, among my adult childrens’ peers there are at least six trans girls and boys — including two ex-girlfriends who are now boys, so I’m just a late bloomer.

I’m pretty open about my non-binary status and often dress publicly in a hybrid sort of way, though few who I would not consider ‘friends’ would know. I’m careful about not being out alone. I do not pass when my face is showing.

That’s the one nice thing about the Covid lockdown, I’ve gone to the store enfemme with a mask without any issues. Someone observant like you though —checking hands? Yikes! Lol.

Before the lockdowns I went to a cross dressers’ night club in San Francisco. There were several other people like me who don’t pass. A bunch of us were sharing drinks at a table, basking in openness like turtles on a log when I looked around at all of the strong hands and hairy forearms. Whew! You know you’re queer when the combination of lace and snaggled fingernails turns you on!

Great thread, girl!

I really appreciate that you've brought another perspective to this discussion.