Mgtow

[CandiCame]

Yes, besides those men who feel that they were taken advantage of, single mothers face a lot of stigma.
I get that part of the rationale against the marriage culture.

But there's a reason why they call it maternal instinct.
There are 100 times more men who are likely to be ratbags and either abandon or chip in much less in child care, than women.

If not marriage, then there needs to be another way to perpetuate a cultural view in which raising a child is a big and shared responsibility.

Yikes.

Hey beew, you might not understand why most people want to get married, but you HAVE to understand why men probably don't want to marry YOU, right?

What's weird and... honestly super evil about this is that your premise doesn't match your assertion unless you're a fucking SUPERVILLAN.

"Men are evil ratbags! Therefore, we must force them to be around children! Children need all the evil they can get in their lives!"

Like... calm down there, Miss Trunchbull.

 

[beew]

^^^ So I'm no longer a potential carrot-wielding rapist?

 

[mAnn_Tagonist]

^^^ So I'm no longer a potential carrot-wielding rapist?

More like a dildo wielding goat fucker.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Me too lol. Plus I never wanted kids.

That becomes more and more evident with each passing holiday season.
*nods*

 

[beew]

It's not that they're opposed to marriage that I'm picking on. Everybody had their own life experience and motives.

It's their hypocrisy, the way they're phrasing it: "We're doing it because we care for women, we want to help them break the chain of oppression!"
The same guys who rabidly defend Sharia divorce courts and burkas.

Fucking clowns.

 

[Oblimo]

No, I simply assume that, when two people consciously decide to have a child, they're committed to staying and raising the child together at least during the child's formative years.

Oh lord.

Well, yes, that would be the optimal and rational thing to do.

Reality is very, very different.

My uncle, the psychiatrist, liked to quip that the “people are promoted to the level of their competence” canard of corporate dysfunction applied to marriages as well. You and I are good friends, let’s couple up. We make a great couple, let’s move in together. We’re great live in lovers, let’s get married! Wow, we are unstoppable, let’s have kids! OH GOD THE WORK THE KIDS NEVER STOP NEEDING US AND THE BILLS AND FUCK YOU I CAN’T STAND YOU ANY MORE!

That’s the American Dream.

 

[CandiCame]

It's not that they're opposed to marriage that I'm picking on. Everybody had their own life experience and motives.

It's their hypocrisy, the way they're phrasing it: "We're doing it because we care for women, we want to help them break the chain of oppression!"
The same guys who rabidly defend Sharia divorce courts and burkas.

Fucking clowns.

Literally not a thing. It's been mostly me that you've been bitching at. Me, the atheist, not the Muslim. Who do you THINK you're talking about here?

Though I will say that anyone has a right to wear whatever dumbass shit they want. I don't get the burka thing because it is the antithesis of my general attention whore lifestyle, but if it's something you want to do to be modest before your imaginary god, you're not doing anything worse than those bitches who think it's ok to wear floor-length khaki skirts with ball shoes. The god of fashion will judge you all accordingly.

And again, it's not about helping women break chains of oppression - again, I don't think anyone has said that. The FACT is that women are more averse to marriage than men are. They don't want to get married and nobody likes getting rejected. This one is not on US. It's literally the CONCEPT of marriage- a heterosexual couple can cohabitate and the woman doesn't see that happiness drop- it's literally JUST marriage, so they don't want to do it.

Why are you so unable to accept the fact that marriage is not the default? That it's just one thing, out of a million things, that you don't have to do if you don't want to?

Edit: Hey, yhall remember at first when Beew liked marriages because they strengthened a commitment, then when she found out they didn't, she liked them because they were good for kids, then when she found out they weren't, she liked them because they were good for women, and then when she found out they weren't- she lost her damn mind and now she doesn't like marriage at all, she just dislikes that men aren't forcing women to marry against their will?

 

[beew]

Yeah, right. They wear burkas and hijabs because they love to sweat like pigs during tropical weather, while the hubby wears Armani suits.

No covert coercion there "If you dare take those off, you'll face stigma or rejection."

 

[CandiCame]

Yeah, right. They wear burkas and hijabs because they love to sweat like pigs during tropical weather, while the hubby wears Armani suits.

No covert coercion there "If you dare take those off, you'll face stigma or rejection."

No one should be coerced into wearing anything, but I feel like you've never worn a suit if you think it's a temperature thing. Hijab is MUCH better to wear in hot weather than a suit. A hijab is just a head scarf, and those can be designed to HELP with heat- to the point that every human culture accidentally invents one to help with heat- you wrap your hair up in it and tie it off. Here's some non-muslim folk rocking headscarves trying to beat the heat- because that's how reality works.

Hell, I've wrapped my hair up in a bandana before- just because that's all I had at the time. My hair is actually too thick to be able to do that unless it's pretty short... yes I have a shitton of bandanas. I don't know why. I don't buy them.

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/3a/9a/35/3a9a35cf0facb2b77bf8502ef11af27e--scarf-tieing-turban-style.jpg
http://ngr.ng/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/d9db713e351c8055ea477272bfdb2612.jpg
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d2583ae3ded3ee8e74bb1125eb5520a1-c

Whereas suits were designed as COLD weather wear, and by their very design are never going to breath because to hold a tailored shape (as opposed to a draping shape like a headscarf) you HAVE to have a thick, tightly-woven fabric. If your suit isn't tailored, then it's a leisure or lounge suit, and you're a jackass. No one can pull it off, and no one really wears them anymore because my whole gender had one of our rare moments of insight and realized how goddamn awful the leisure/lounge suit looked. You cannot use light material in a suit. You just can't. Yes it's hot as hell, I'm burning up and miserable too, but we all collectively agreed that we would rather look decent than have any kind of air flow. Just wear a wife-beater and boxers under it and maybe those undergarments will absorb all the sweat.

It was such a problem before synthetic fabrics became mainstream that we wore basically a whole outfit UNDER the suit, to absorb the sweat. Which I actually really like because I think it's very Gomez Addams, and because it genuinely works better than modern male undergarments, because the cotton isn't cut with acrylic. That means that you could wear a suit several times without having to clean it- the reason we have to clean them so frequently now is because we sweat through them, because we aren't wearing sweat-absorbing undergarments- but the suits have stayed just as miserable to wear.

Also, they had a rib knit around the stomach, which makes you look slimmer. Helps get that dorito shape that is still a pretty ideal male silhouette.


The fact that T-shirts were underwear is why it was REBELLIOUS for men to just wear them- which is a thing people started doing in the 50s. That was the equivilancy of running around in your underwear. That was the thing you wore under your suit, so that you wouldn't sweat through it. And James Dean is out here just running around topless /except for his underwear/.

My point is that suits are hot and miserable, and everyone hates them, but you have to look professional. Well... not hate, but... is uncomfortable in but wears anyway because you look so goddamn good. And it does pretty much universally look good- but also part of me wonders if I've just been conditioned to think that. But there's something about a guy in a suit.

Also... you realize that Armani designs hijabs, right? And Abayas. Like... you realize that "modest" designer fashion is a thing, right?

Because religious people love the shit out of hypocrisy.

http://girlshijab.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Stunning-hijab-for-stunning-women.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/4f/3a/f0/4f3af02039037e01366f6e38c68159ba--hijab--trend-fashion.jpg
https://cdn1.thr.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/landscape_928x523/2017/06/screen_shot_2017-06-01_at_2.42.41_pm_-_h_2017.jpg

Either way, this has changed from sexism to xenophobia, but I will ALWAYS talk fashion.

Headscarves in one form or another are a huge thing all over the world- and "modesty" fashion uses them a LOT. It's why nuns, Jewish ladies, and Hindu ladies wear them. Again, I'm not a fan of modesty fashion- but no twink would be worth his salt if he didn't know world-wide fashion history. Muslims don't have a monopoly on headscarves related to modesty- which is why it's really weird to me that that's something that Islamaphobic people latched onto.

Of course no one should be forced to wear anything they don't want to- but neither should anyone be forced to be more naked than they would like. For some of these "modesty" people, that's what going without a hijab is- it's feeling naked in public. And no one should have to feel uncomfortable because of their clothing choice, unless it's something outwardly violent that they wore specifically to hurt someone else, like a T-shirt that says "Kill the gays" or something. But if you want to cover your hair or get it off your neck or whatever, like... that ain't hurting nobody.

We've gotten way off topic, but I'll talk fashion all day long.

This thread is hitting all my buttons- math, fashion history, men, women... this is a good thread.

 

[CandiCame]

To keep up the fashion thing- the only headscarf I own was actually given to me by a friend I used to work with at my old office, and it's a male headscarf, from India (this guy was from India and had returned home to visit and brought it back for me, making me feel like a JACKASS, because I had nothing for him), from a men's clothing store. I just wanted to add that headscarves aren't an exclusively female thing- there are a lot of cultures where men wear them- sometimes for culture, sometimes for modesty, sometimes just for fashion.

https://image.dhgate.com/0x0/f2/albu/g6/M00/B7/80/rBVaR1r__4yAd-HhAABlPbZPBBg169.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/79/7e/06/797e067712c496c9c0c643d1441e1201--steven-tyler-aerosmith-rock-n-roll.jpg
https://images.fineartamerica.com/images/artworkimages/mediumlarge/1/pakistani-pashtun-man-models-with-headscarf-and-necklace-peshawar-pakistan-imran-ahmed.jpg
http://www.bluemaize.net/im/scarves/men-head-scarf-3.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ec/5a/3c/ec5a3c675318cc09faace48324c8900d.jpg
https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/man-headscarf-450w-3895585.jpg
https://png.pngtree.com/element_origin_min_pic/16/10/14/225800ea64cadd6.jpg
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-80abfc1d957e066a907ef3a5dc1a92c1
https://assets.capitalfm.com/2015/41/dougie-poynter-head-scarf-instagram--1444987120-view-1.png
https://www.nairaland.com/attachments/1381414_108221489_jpg3f685cc42c3562779aebcedd2d152443

Edit: One of my pics stretched the screen

 

[Emerson40]

Hashtag has a fashion sense that he fashioned, all on his own.


He calls it ‘Disheveled Idiot With a Sharpie’:

 

[SpeareChucker]

Interesting phrase
Post modern world.
What's after modern?
Return to Walden's Pond?

 

[bellisarius]

A little more research kinda shows that MGTOW is not just a US phenomena. It's catching on throughout the Western world.

But guess who's expressing 'grave concern?' The purveyors of diamonds. Now that's FUNNY folks.

 

[Rightguide]

Interesting phrase
Post modern world.
What's after modern?
Return to Walden's Pond?

Return to the dark Age or a new dystopia where dog eat dog and lock and load are the plan of the day.

 

[BotanyBoy]

If not marriage, then there needs to be another way to perpetuate a cultural view in which raising a child is a big and shared responsibility.

No, there doesn't because freedom.

It should be really simple.

If woman has kid that's on her.

If couple has kid, he's liable for half....get chyer contracts out folks.

https://comedycentral.mtvnimages.com/images/shows/chappelle/videos/season_2/CHAPPELLE_02_0204_LOVECONTRACT_640x360.jpg

Return to the dark Age or a new dystopia where dog eat dog and lock and load are the plan of the day.

OMG it would be so much better that way.....civility is fuckin' over rated dishonesty.

 

[Kirkrapine]

Interesting phrase
Post modern world.
What's after modern?

No, the question is, what's after postmodern.

And the answer is: Cyberzoic! It's perfect! It can mean anything you want, it sounds like a geological era, and it's got "cyber" in it! I hereby declare 2018 the first year of the Cyberzoic Era!

 

[Rightguide]

No, there doesn't because freedom.

It should be really simple.

If woman has kid that's on her.

If couple has kid, he's liable for half....get chyer contracts out folks.





OMG it would be so much better that way.....civility is fuckin' over rated dishonesty.

There was a time when there was no law west of Pennsylvania.

 

[BotanyBoy]

There was a time when there was no law west of Pennsylvania.

https://asheathersworldturns.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/123736-deadwood-huzzah-gif-imgur-al-s-7yij.gif

 

[Kirkrapine]

There was a time when there was no law west of Pennsylvania.

And that was not a world you or Bot would really want to live in.

 

[beew]

Well, yes, that would be the optimal and rational thing to do.

Reality is very, very different.

My uncle, the psychiatrist, liked to quip that the “people are promoted to the level of their competence” canard of corporate dysfunction applied to marriages as well. You and I are good friends, let’s couple up. We make a great couple, let’s move in together. We’re great live in lovers, let’s get married! Wow, we are unstoppable, let’s have kids! OH GOD THE WORK THE KIDS NEVER STOP NEEDING US AND THE BILLS AND FUCK YOU I CAN’T STAND YOU ANY MORE!

That’s the American Dream.

No, there doesn't because freedom.

It should be really simple.

If woman has kid that's on her.

If couple has kid, he's liable for half....get chyer contracts out folks.

https://comedycentral.mtvnimages.com/images/shows/chappelle/videos/season_2/CHAPPELLE_02_0204_LOVECONTRACT_640x360.jpg



OMG it would be so much better that way.....civility is fuckin' over rated dishonesty.

I partly understand some Milenials' eagerness to get rid of traditions, and the views of those who are weary of the drawbacks or chains of a traditional family unit. I constructed my life in that way too.

But the older I get, the more I see the importance of traditions as a source of shared wisdom.
There must be some good reasons why so many cultures that had no contact in time or space, created the formal institution of marriage or the equivalent of it, especially when kids are involved.
Yes, it has many disadvantage too, but it has just as many pros too.

Interesting topic.

 

[CandiCame]

I partly understand some Milenials' eagerness to get rid of traditions, and the views of those who are weary of the drawbacks or chains of a traditional family unit. I constructed my life in that way too.

But the older I get, the more I see the importance of traditions as a source of shared wisdom.
There must be some good reasons why so many cultures that had no contact in time or space, created the formal institution of marriage or the equivalent of it, especially when kids are involved.
Yes, it has many disadvantage too, but it has just as many pros too.

Interesting topic.

I mean... we know the answer to this? If you have patralinial inheritance laws and don't have DNA testing, you want to have some way to track who the father of kids are. That was the original point. You entered into a contract that basically said, "You assure me that you will ONLY bear my biological children, and I'll provide you with resources."

If you DON'T have patralinial inheritance laws, but still want to track who the father of what kid is to avoid inbreeding, it's still a pretty good idea to keep track of the men, so even in matralinial cultures, you keep tabs on that, which is more or less a marriage. I mean, you'd CALL it a marriage if you had to explain it to people (the way that people coparenting will sometimes say that they're married to save time and dumbassery), but it doesn't have the same "transfer of property" connotations and confuses the fuck out of white folks who think that they can do first night rights on somebody who's already super pregnant and is accepting the father into her clan BECAUSE he's her baby daddy, not because she was bartered property. Threw them off so bad they had to run a smear campaign. Look at hte 18th century "Petticoat Government" bullshit.

Sometime it was clear-cut and mutually beneficial, sometimes it was clusterfuck.

Once we had that basic premise, it opened up the door to barter fertile women as bargaining chips and is now widely considered a bad idea among my generation.

Like... it's not some big mystery why we started doing this. It was to keep track of who the baby daddy was before we had an independent way to do that. We can just do that now.

It evolved beyond that, and now has all kinds of legal connotations, but as for "Why did a bunch of societies come up with this same basic concept?" That's the reason.

Edit: Also, the nuclear family has only been around since the nuclear age- about 70 years ago. Before that almost every culture in the world did the extended family thing. "Marriage" is a pretty nebulous concept that is NOT always defined as "one man + one woman = children". Polyamorous marriages were pretty common until really recently, divorce has always been a thing, marriages of convenience have been a thing, arranged marriages with child brides, etc. There is no one "traditional" marriage.

Traditionally in the Cherokee nation, the guy would ask permission to join his wive's clan and had to prove he was worth having- usually by proving that he could father children but you could also do big manly shows of manliness. You weren't just trying to impress the chick, you were trying to impress the whole clan, but ESPECIALLY her mom. That, "Ugh, my mother-in-law is so annoying, let's never listen to her and just bitch all the time about it" sitcom shit did NOT fly.

Then you just showed up with some corn and a deer and they let you move in. There was no ceremony or anything, really, because you weren't property that was being transferred, you were literally just moving in together. That's the wedding. They agree to let you move in, and you do. No cake or nothing. Because it wasn't considered a big deal. If she wanted you gone, you'd come home and all your shit would be outside and if you didn't get it, she'd have a yard sell.

Which... still seems like a pretty common reaction? Why do yhall do that? Why can't I come INSIDE and get my shit?

But that was literally the signal for "divorce". No paperwork or anything, just collect your shit and leave. Go back to your mom's house and cry and write music about it.

That's traditional. And you can see that a lot of those traditions are still pretty popular, not just among the tribe but that's every country-western song ever.

My point is, that "tradition" means different things to different people, but "both of you have a big legal ceremony and then move out together into a new single family unit" is not super traditional. For the vast majority of cultures it was just one of the people moved into the other person's extended family home.

 

[BotanyBoy]

And that was not a world you or Bot would really want to live in.

Actually it is, so you can stop telling me what I think already.

I know you lefties are inherently total control freaks with an EXTRA large side of sumg and arrogance, but I have my own opinions and you don't know what they are and certainly don't have any authority to be speaking on my behalf.

But the older I get, the more I see the importance of traditions as a source of shared wisdom.

Traditions =/= legal institutions.

There must be some good reasons why so many cultures that had no contact in time or space, created the formal institution of marriage or the equivalent of it, especially when kids are involved.

Sure...but they aren't in charge are they??

Again with the control freakage...what is with you people and your need to control how other people live their lives?

Yes, it has many disadvantage too, but it has just as many pros too.

Interesting topic.

No....if you have a dick it is ALL bad and nothing good comes of getting married.

 

[mAnn_Tagonist]

Sounds like someone needs his binky...lol