MFA Discussion Thread

Tzara

Continental
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Posts
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Hello, authors.

I've started a thread on the Poetry Forum about the value (or lack of value) of the MFA (Master of Fine Arts in Writing) degree. Don't know if erotic fiction writers give a rat's ass about the topic, but if you'd like to comment on it, please go here.

My thought is that if you're exclusively interested in writing erotic fiction, the thread topic won't be of much interest. Perhaps that itself is a topic of discussion.

Anyway, I'd love your comments, should you deign to leave some.
 
Hello, authors.

I've started a thread on the Poetry Forum about the value (or lack of value) of the MFA (Master of Fine Arts in Writing) degree. Don't know if erotic fiction writers give a rat's ass about the topic, but if you'd like to comment on it, please go here.

My thought is that if you're exclusively interested in writing erotic fiction, the thread topic won't be of much interest. Perhaps that itself is a topic of discussion.

Anyway, I'd love your comments, should you deign to leave some.

Personally, I think a master's degree is rather excessive. I will readily concede the need to know what you are doing, and to have a good command of language, spelling, etc., but some basic writing courses and experience should be enough.

Of course, I don't claim to be a writer of fine literature; I am strictly a writer of smut. I believe it is good quality smut, but smut nevertheless. :)
 
Poetry is an excellent route to learning how to write prose, simply cuz it forces you to acquire skills that good prose demands.

I have no idea of what use an MFA diploma serves.
 
I have no idea of what use an MFA diploma serves.

It validates your own worth. It might not mean much to the uninitiated, but it proves your competence, to yourself and possibly to an employer.

My father started his Open University degree once he had retired i.e. after age 75. He was proud of his achievement in completing it and graduating age 81 but it was useless since he didn't need it to prove his intelligence to an employer.

My brother, once he had retired, started a degree course in the History of Art, and graduated. He wanted the qualification to educate himself in the aspects of Art that he wouldn't normally look at. He enjoyed the course and has progressed from pen and ink drawing to painting in oils and sculpture - because he was inspired by his studies.

An MFA is only of practical use if you are employed in a field that requires or appreciates that award.
 
Personally, I think a master's degree is rather excessive. I will readily concede the need to know what you are doing, and to have a good command of language, spelling, etc., but some basic writing courses and experience should be enough.

Of course, I don't claim to be a writer of fine literature; I am strictly a writer of smut. I believe it is good quality smut, but smut nevertheless. :)
That's kind of what I was thinking might be the typical response from a Authors' Hangout denizen, Box. I think it is unlikely that most, even any, MFA programs would welcome someone interested in writing erotic fiction, whether it be "smut" or Anaïs Nin's more self-consciously "literary" erotic fiction.

I know a couple authors who graduated from the University of Iowa Writers Workshop, which is the most prestigious MFA program in the country. Both currently write mysteries which, while perhaps more "legitimate" a form of fiction than erotic stories for literary types, is still something of a stylistic ghetto. Certainly they both felt this to be the case, as they wrote only "literary" fiction while in the program.
 
I have no idea of what use an MFA diploma serves.
I'm not sure it is intended to serve a purpose. My impression of the degree is that it, at best, might help one to be a "better writer," whatever that means.

Having an MFA might qualify one to teach at community college or university level, from a practical standpoint. I would presume that most students are more interested in learning to write better.

That may be a flawed assumption, of course.
 
Writing is a creative ability. You have it or you don't.

English courses to help with grammar and structure and some other general courses can hone the skill, but a masters is a bit much.

I look at it as how many of us know people with these great educations and degrees, but they can;t apply shit to real life?

Paper sometimes is only worth the paper its printed on.
 
An MFA is only of practical use if you are employed in a field that requires or appreciates that award.
Bingo. (Is that a term that means anything to you English? Just curious.)

I don't think the MFA is intended as a "practical" degree. One might find employment with the degree, but there certainly is no certainty about that. It's more a "I want to improve as a writer" degree, I think.

I'm curious, though. The States have seen an explosion of MFA programs--they are all over the place. It's almost the exception that a university doesn't have an MFA program because, of course, they bring in money.

Is this true of the UK? I don't really have the feeling that it is, but I don't really know.
 
That's kind of what I was thinking might be the typical response from a Authors' Hangout denizen, Box. I think it is unlikely that most, even any, MFA programs would welcome someone interested in writing erotic fiction, whether it be "smut" or Anaïs Nin's more self-consciously "literary" erotic fiction.

I know a couple authors who graduated from the University of Iowa Writers Workshop, which is the most prestigious MFA program in the country. Both currently write mysteries which, while perhaps more "legitimate" a form of fiction than erotic stories for literary types, is still something of a stylistic ghetto. Certainly they both felt this to be the case, as they wrote only "literary" fiction while in the program.

Detective fiction is or can be highly lucrative. Among the highest selling novels in history are Mike Hammer novels by Mickey Spillane. :eek:
 
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Writing is a creative ability. You have it or you don't.
Really? That seems a rather Calvinist view of literary talent.

If one is not born to write, one has no hope of ever being able to write anything of worth, either of commercial or literary or even personal importance?

Is there some test one can take to tell if we should not waste our time trying to write if we are destined by fate to be poor writers?

I fear, lovecraft, that you paint a rather dismal picture for those of us who aspire to write, even if only for personal satisfaction. If I "don't have it," I am apparently condemned to a kind of Sisyphean task of pushing my pen's nib forever uphill, only to find that my few laboriously slovenly paragraphs have slid back down into the Slough of Writerly Despond each morning.

One might ask if there is some mark by which the Chosen can tell if they are toiling in vain or whether they have the "it" that ensures their creativity.

I presume, and I don't mean this snottily, that you feel you have "it," as you would logically otherwise cease writing.

May I ask how you know you are blessed with that "creative ability?"
 
Bingo. (Is that a term that means anything to you English? Just curious.)

We understand the term but in UK English it usually refers to the call for a full card in a Bingo Hall. Bingo is seen as a pastime for bored middle-aged housewives.

I don't think the MFA is intended as a "practical" degree. One might find employment with the degree, but there certainly is no certainty about that. It's more a "I want to improve as a writer" degree, I think.

I'm curious, though. The States have seen an explosion of MFA programs--they are all over the place. It's almost the exception that a university doesn't have an MFA program because, of course, they bring in money.

Is this true of the UK? I don't really have the feeling that it is, but I don't really know.

Without searching I'm not sure that any UK Universities offer an MFA. Many do creative writing at several levels, but a Master of Fine Arts? I don't think so. They might call it something else. I'll look and edit this post.

Edited: Found This at Bath Spa University. I have never heard of Bath Spa University. :rolleyes:

And this at City University which has a proven track record for degrees in Journalism.

Kingston claims to be offering the FIRST MFA in Creative Writing in the UK but the details are sketchy. I would be cautious about committing to their course because it looks like they are experimenting to see if anyone is interested.
 
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As was said in someones sig line at one time, I have a Master of Fine Arts degree. Would you like fries with that?

It might make you feel warm and fuzzy but there are very few real world applications. It might make you a "better" writer but is the time and money worth it? And in whose terms are we using the word "better."
 
An MFA looks very good (and helps getting past the gatekeepers) on query letters for a certain (mainly literary) type of novel or short story.
 
As was said in someones sig line at one time, I have a Master of Fine Arts degree. Would you like fries with that?

It might make you feel warm and fuzzy but there are very few real world applications. It might make you a "better" writer but is the time and money worth it? And in whose terms are we using the word "better."

15 years ago my company sent me back to school.

I earned a degree and....

have never done a damn thing with it. I looked around for jobs in that field for awhile and realized that A) there really wasn't that huge a difference in income and B and more importantly I came to the conclusion I would hate doing it for a living.
 
Really? That seems a rather Calvinist view of literary talent.

If one is not born to write, one has no hope of ever being able to write anything of worth, either of commercial or literary or even personal importance?

Is there some test one can take to tell if we should not waste our time trying to write if we are destined by fate to be poor writers?

I fear, lovecraft, that you paint a rather dismal picture for those of us who aspire to write, even if only for personal satisfaction. If I "don't have it," I am apparently condemned to a kind of Sisyphean task of pushing my pen's nib forever uphill, only to find that my few laboriously slovenly paragraphs have slid back down into the Slough of Writerly Despond each morning.

One might ask if there is some mark by which the Chosen can tell if they are toiling in vain or whether they have the "it" that ensures their creativity.

I presume, and I don't mean this snottily, that you feel you have "it," as you would logically otherwise cease writing.

May I ask how you know you are blessed with that "creative ability?"

I am a dismal sort.

What I'm saying is I think that someone can learn to write to a degree, but there are people who naturally have the gift and it can't be taught.

A major league hitting coach can give a batter pointers to be a better hitter, but if that hitter is not born with the innate ability to hit a 98 mile an hour fastball, then the game is over. Any ability can be improved, but it has to be there.

An MFA strikes me as a vanity degree.
 
Probably an obvious point, but the degree itself--the thing signifying that you took all the required courses and received grades good enough to graduate--isn't what makes you a better writer.* That degree should act as a signal to potential employers that you are a better writer, but given that the MFA doesn't qualify you for many jobs or opportunities (at least according to those on this thread), it's not the best signal to throw your money after.

However, and depending on the school/department/instructor/semester, you might be able to take courses that are part of an MFA curriculum without getting the actual degree. You can pay by the class, or if you are really lucky and get in good with the prof, audit the class for free. The time and the money would be much lower this way, and you'd only be taking the classes you really want to take.

In other words, if you are only looking for personal betterment, and really believe that you would benefit from a select group of courses, you don't need the full-blown MFA to get there. I don't see why the vast majority of people would do the entire program instead of taking a choose-your-own-adventure approach.

*Assuming, for the sake of argument, that taking writing courses makes you a better writer.
 
We understand the term but in UK English it usually refers to the call for a full card in a Bingo Hall. Bingo is seen as a pastime for bored middle-aged housewives.
That's what it means here as well. Bingo as I used it is a way of saying "right!" or "I've got it!"
Without searching I'm not sure that any UK Universities offer an MFA. Many do creative writing at several levels, but a Master of Fine Arts? I don't think so. They might call it something else. I'll look and edit this post.

Edited: Found This at Bath Spa University. I have never heard of Bath Spa University. :rolleyes:

And this at City University which has a proven track record for degrees in Journalism.

Kingston claims to be offering the FIRST MFA in Creative Writing in the UK but the details are sketchy. I would be cautious about committing to their course because it looks like they are experimenting to see if anyone is interested.
I'm rather sorry to hear that. The MFA in writing degree is a kind of cash cow for American universities. Not that that's a bad thing in itself--universities need money, of course, but MFA programs have proliferated to a ridiculous degree in the States.

I fear they are preying on the insecurities of novice writers. God knows we novices is all chock full of insecurities.
 
As was said in someones sig line at one time, I have a Master of Fine Arts degree. Would you like fries with that?

It might make you feel warm and fuzzy but there are very few real world applications. It might make you a "better" writer but is the time and money worth it? And in whose terms are we using the word "better."
Well, that's the whole "do I do it?" decision right there, isn't it?

It isn't going to get you a job. It might help you get a job (say, as a community college instructor), but it won't guarantee it.

Not that a PhD would either.

I think the value, if it has value, is in learning to write better. Why, supposedly, you're in the program in the first place.

Oh, and the connection with people who have negotiated the publication maze, of course.
 
An MFA looks very good (and helps getting past the gatekeepers) on query letters for a certain (mainly literary) type of novel or short story.
I guess I'm a bit skeptical that mentioning an MFA (at least a generic MFA from CowCollegeU) would help on a query letter. I think a more valuable connection would be obtaining the support and career buy-in of a successful instructor.

I write mainly poetry, so I may have a bit skewed view of things, but I would think that getting, say, Jorie Graham to talk you up with journals and publishers would go some long way to getting your work published by something other than We'reReallyObscure Press.

I would think the same would obtain for fiction, though we might be talking about Knopf instead of a university press.
 
Well, that's the whole "do I do it?" decision right there, isn't it?

It isn't going to get you a job. It might help you get a job (say, as a community college instructor), but it won't guarantee it.

Not that a PhD would either.

I think the value, if it has value, is in learning to write better. Why, supposedly, you're in the program in the first place.

Oh, and the connection with people who have negotiated the publication maze, of course.

I got lucky and kind of fell through a hole in the Maze. :D
 
I am a dismal sort.

What I'm saying is I think that someone can learn to write to a degree, but there are people who naturally have the gift and it can't be taught.

A major league hitting coach can give a batter pointers to be a better hitter, but if that hitter is not born with the innate ability to hit a 98 mile an hour fastball, then the game is over. Any ability can be improved, but it has to be there.

An MFA strikes me as a vanity degree.
Well, to confirm your initial comment, I tried to write fiction for a number of years. Can't do it. Have nothing to say and can't tell a story.

So, yeah, I am not going to become a novelist.

But I think writers can be taught to write better. Within their limitations, of course. To expand on your baseball analogy, why do all professional teams have a hitting coach, if the ability to hit a 98 mph fastball is innate?

Because you can get better at it. There are things you can do to make it more likely you will get a hit. Same with writing, I think. An MFA won't make you a genius, but it might make you a better writer than you were before.

I think. Or, hope, since I am considering trying to get an MFA.

You're probably right, at least a bit, in calling it a vanity degree. I wouldn't be getting it to improve anything other than to (hopefully) improve my writing. So, vanity.

But in that sense no worse than a $500 haircut or designer clothes, eh?
 
I guess I'm a bit skeptical that mentioning an MFA (at least a generic MFA from CowCollegeU) would help on a query letter. I think a more valuable connection would be obtaining the support and career buy-in of a successful instructor.

Yes, having contacts is better (and you get contacts while taking an MFA, by the way--that's how I got connected with mainstream publishers for editing; I took a graduate degree in publishing and got networked). But the subject is the value of a MFA in getting published. I've been a query letter gatekeeper, so I'm not a bit skeptical about the clout of an MFA over having no credentials at all for writing.

As far as developing skills, I've seen going through an MFA program ending up both ways for a writer. Some it develops. In others, it beats their natural voice and their own interesting styles out of them.
 
It validates your own worth. It might not mean much to the uninitiated, but it proves your competence, to yourself and possibly to an employer.

My father started his Open University degree once he had retired i.e. after age 75. He was proud of his achievement in completing it and graduating age 81 but it was useless since he didn't need it to prove his intelligence to an employer.

My brother, once he had retired, started a degree course in the History of Art, and graduated. He wanted the qualification to educate himself in the aspects of Art that he wouldn't normally look at. He enjoyed the course and has progressed from pen and ink drawing to painting in oils and sculpture - because he was inspired by his studies.

An MFA is only of practical use if you are employed in a field that requires or appreciates that award.

Over the years I completed all kinds of training, and have a wall full of certificates, but none of what I learned trained me for any of the work I performed. The 'real' work always seems to require natural talent that cant be taught. At best training shapes whats already there, you cant carve a David from a fistfull of marble.
 
Really? That seems a rather Calvinist view of literary talent.

If one is not born to write, one has no hope of ever being able to write anything of worth, either of commercial or literary or even personal importance?

Is there some test one can take to tell if we should not waste our time trying to write if we are destined by fate to be poor writers?

I fear, lovecraft, that you paint a rather dismal picture for those of us who aspire to write, even if only for personal satisfaction. If I "don't have it," I am apparently condemned to a kind of Sisyphean task of pushing my pen's nib forever uphill, only to find that my few laboriously slovenly paragraphs have slid back down into the Slough of Writerly Despond each morning.

One might ask if there is some mark by which the Chosen can tell if they are toiling in vain or whether they have the "it" that ensures their creativity.

I presume, and I don't mean this snottily, that you feel you have "it," as you would logically otherwise cease writing.

May I ask how you know you are blessed with that "creative ability?"

The IT factor is what you do when you come to a WHAT NOW! moment. Its also called the MOMENT OF TRUTH. Art is the terra incognito beyond science.
 
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