Mexico 'conquers' US--Ironies

[Pure]

CNN anchor, Lou Dobbs, "Mexico is exporting its poverty to us."

According to Bush, Mexico is supposed to supply impoverished workers for subminimum wage--but they are to work hard and keep the fields picked and the hotels and restaurants running.

Their wages are low in part because the employer pays no payroll taxes, there are no health benefits-- pay may be cash only.

But they are bankrupting the public health system, its said. Public health was supposed to take care of a *limited number* so the employers could ignore health benefits.

Businessmen by the hundreds and households by the thousands call
"Give us laborers, housecleaners--cheap!"

Then the buggers hang around the US, even demonstrate and demand 'rights'. Don't they know that when the Bill of Right protects "people' and "persons" , these Latino illegal people do not count!

The constitution [14th Amt] REALLY riles the right, esp. amicus. It seems that if you're born in the US, you're a citizen. The kids of the damn Hispanics serve as anchors for the family--harder to deport citizens (the kids) and their families (parents).

SO--lets preserve the founders' intent and rewrite the Bill of Rights to protect only CITIZENS from unlawful search seizure and arbitrary imprisonment!. Arbitrary deportation or imprisonment for all others with no access to the courts!

Let's honor Republican Abe Lincoln and rewrite the 14th amendment, deleting the line that says 'if you're born in the US, you're citizen'. (This made all kids of slaves into citizens, in the early years.)

These demonstrators, said Lou Dobbs, should be in Mexico! Well, the presidents of US and Mexico arranged for them to come to the US: labor for the US takes the pressure off Mexico, and indeed enriches its families who stay behind (because of money sent to them).

There is much right wing gnashing of teeth as Big Business carries out its open borders project and has the Pres in its pocket. Hey Red-sters, you voted in the party of big business and can't do enough for it in tax breaks, why all the complaining?

--NOTE: the Wall Street Journal is twisting and turning on this one: they've had editorials defending Tyson and at other times, have want a clampdown on illegals. See Fulford's column at 'vdare'.
http://www.vdare.com/fulford/ricoing.htm

 

[neonlyte]

Paying for their healthcare is the CHEAP option. Cheaper than bailing out a bankrupt Mexico (even on the impoverised wages, bn$s flow south). Cheaper than paying full wages for labourers and housecleaners. Cheaper than having to process legal immigrants, second generation illegals are Free, and let's face it - someone has to do the dirty work.

 

[zeb1094]

SO--lets preserve the founders' intent and rewrite the Bill of Rights to protect only CITIZENS from unlawful search seizure and arbitrary imprisonment!. Arbitrary deportation or imprisonment for all others with no access to the courts!

Arbitrary imprisonment and deportation? So you would have us open the doors to all the prisons in America and just let everyone run amuck? Criminals should not be jailed?

I hope you remember that next time you are robbed, mugged, beaten or raped. Or you child dies from a overdose of illegal drugs or is run down by a drunk driver.

Or the next time you go to pay your property taxes and find that they had to raise them to a rediculous rate to cover the cost of keeping the schools open and the county hospital running. And if you don't pay your house will be foreclosed on.

 

[Pure]

zeb, i'm not sure you read me that way I intended. hypothetically I'm talking of changes to the Bill of Rights (desired by the 'right') so it continues to protect citizens from arbitrary arrest and imprisonment BUT does not protect NONcitizens from those government actions.

so an 'illegal' could be picked up and imprisoned and/or deported without being allowed access to courts.

your question is most bizarre

So you would have us open the doors to all the prisons in America and just let everyone run amuck?

no, rather i'd (under the changes to the BR being discussed) fill the prisons with illegals and throw away the key (where deportation was not feasible).

 

[JamesSD]

I've said for a long time that the best way to stop illegal immigration is to impose strict penalties and enforcement on those who hire illegals. But such a practical and unpopular solution will never come to pass.

 

[zeb1094]

zeb, i'm not sure you read me that way I intended. hypothetically I'm talking of changes to the Bill of Rights (desired by the 'right') so it continues to protect citizens from arbitrary arrest and imprisonment BUT does not protect NONcitizens from those government actions.

so an 'illegal' could be picked up and imprisoned and/or deported without being allowed access to courts.

your question is most bizarre

So you would have us open the doors to all the prisons in America and just let everyone run amuck?

no, rather i'd (under the changes to the BR being discussed) fill the prisons with illegals and throw away the key (where deportation was not feasible).

Ah, then I applogize, although that is not the way I read your post. However, I do agree with you then.

 

[zeb1094]

I've said for a long time that the best way to stop illegal immigration is to impose strict penalties and enforcement on those who hire illegals. But such a practical and unpopular solution will never come to pass.

Go see the Mexico Earthquake thread...

 

[Pure]

lou dobbs and the red state folks seem to think their senators work for THEM! not for the companies that shelled out hard earned profits to help the senator's campaigns.

TYSON chicken processing, closed 10 plants, yesterday (out of a 100)--these are rough figures from the CNN. They feared not enough workers would show up. Alternatively, maybe they wanted the illegal workers to join demonstrations!

Tyson is going to push for *stiff penalties* for hiring illegals??

who do you think the 'red' senators are going to listen to--Joe Blow whose wages have dropped, or Mr. Tyson?
====

Some Tyson plants to close for rally, meat glut
Bird flu fears weaken chicken export market while possible absences of Hispanic workers for immigration rally underlie Monday's closure.

April 7, 2006: 4:29 PM EDT


CHICAGO (Reuters) - Tyson Foods Inc., the largest U.S. meat producer, said it will reduce production for one day Monday in response to poor market conditions and to concerns a nationwide immigration rally set for that day could affect attendance by its Hispanic workers.

The meat industry relies heavily on immigrant workers to staff production facilities, and a large percentage of those workers are Hispanic. The rally advocating national immigration reform could affect their attendance that day.

"Some of our plants are not scheduled to operate Monday, due to multiple reasons including market conditions and the planned immigration rallies," Tyson spokesman Gary Mickelson said in an e-mail.

The market conditions were not specified, but food industry analysts and meat companies have said there is an abundance of meat. Bird flu overseas is partly to blame because it has hurt exports of U.S. chicken and that meat is piling up here.

Tyson (Research) said about 30 percent of its work force is Hispanic.

Other U.S. meat companies either said they were aware of the rally or declined to comment about it.

"We at Tyson support comprehensive immigration reform and support our Team Members' right to express themselves on this important matter," said Mickelson.

"We're telling them if they plan to take part in a rally Monday, and their plant is scheduled to operate, we hope they will not take any unauthorized time off but will instead get pre-approval from their supervisor or participate during non-work hours," he said.

 

[Jagged]

I would like us to adopt the Mexican laws in regards to immigration. So we would be fair as they are in this instance and hence be a good neighbor.


Also this is the law people are breaking. Just because a lot of people are breaking the law doesn't make it okay. You want to change the law fine, but you broke the yesterday not today.



When are unemployment is very low and every American who wants a job has one then we can discuss a guess worker program. Then we can bring in English speaking, tax paying, noncriminal people who check in regularly with the government.

 

[WyoD_S]

I would like us to adopt the Mexican laws in regards to immigration. So we would be fair as they are in this instance and hence be a good neighbor.

My thought exactly.

So, how does Mexico deal with illegal immigrants from Central America?

If they enter Mexico illegally, they are jailed and deported.

What's the problem with the US doing the same?

 

[Pure]

the real problem is the Bill of Rights. sloppily drafted it protects "the people". short of changing the wording, which would be arduous, i think the approach taken for slaves and women would work. let Congress pass a law stating that illegals are not persons, and let that be held up by the Supreme Court.

i don't go so far as the posters above; i don't think it's necessary to repeal the Bill of Rights, or maybe have the Pres declare it inoperative during the war on terror.

----
wouldn't it be odd if there was only a law against importing heroin, but no criminal law against being a dealer in it, within the States; indeed no criminal laws against possessing it.**

Republicans deal in migrant labor, and many prefer illegal, which means 'illegal entry.' Being in the US and working is not illegal, iirc, nor is hiring such a person more than a minor infraction bearing a small fine.

Does someone really expect a law putting good Texas and Arizona Republicans in jail?

----
** I have revised the wording slightly, since it is an "infraction", but not a criminal act, to be in the US without the right papers. IOW, a CIVIL procedure applies, and deportation is a possible result.

 

[WyoD_S]

One thing I don't get is the 'proposed' migrant worker program.

I spent a couple of weeks a year ago in Calexico, CA. Every morning there were dozens of busses carrying hundreds of 'migrant workers' across the border to tend the fields. Every evening they went back South.

So, isn't there already a 'migrant worker' program in place?

If not, how did what I saw occur on a daily basis, at a controlled border crossing?

 

[JamesSD]

Also this is the law people are breaking. Just because a lot of people are breaking the law doesn't make it okay. You want to change the law fine, but you broke the yesterday not today.

The people employing illegals are also breaking the law, and should be punished accordingly.

 

[Xelebes]

I'm canadian and I support them booting out the illegal aliens. Is there something wrong here? I certainly hope not.

 

[Pure]

it dawned on me that the 'problem' of "illegal aliens"

is like the old "problem" of lessened morals standards and "loose women."

it's fictitious; virtually everyone benefits, just as with "loose women."

but it's a great sermon topic. "Illegals" or "Jezebels."

 

[matriarch]

.........

----
wouldn't it be odd if there was only a law against importing heroin, but none against being a dealer in it, within the States; indeed no laws against possessing it.

.................................

Does someone really expect a law putting good Texas and Arizona Republicans in jail?

Exactly. There would be no call for illegal migrant workers if the employers didn't knowingly hire them.

The do hire them, however, because they know the workers are desperate, will do all the crappy jobs that other workers (legal) won't do and work for less money, because its more than they'd get in their home country. And they didn't used to complain about conditions or wages, because they needed the work.

If you really want to stamp it out, then start at the root, penalise the employers.....ALL the employers......who hire them.

Oh, but wait. That would have a disastrous effect on the economy, wouldn't it That would mean employing US citizens. That would mean paying them realistic wages. That would mean paying out for health care. That would mean putting up the prices of your products to cover the extra costs............

 

[Liar]

If you really want to stamp it out, then start at the root, penalise the employers.....ALL the employers......who hire them.

Reminds me of Swedish prostitution laws. Trading money for sex is illegal. But t's the customer that gets penalized, not the prostitute. Why? Because that's where the root cause is. On the demand side. Those that prostitute themselves are 99% of the time driven there by desperation and/or lack of options (drug habits, trafficking, debts), and making them criminals wouldn't stop them. It may or may not be fair on a principal level, but it's pragmatically what seems to work best, if the goal is to minimize it. Many ordinary Joes don't buy sex anymore in fear of the law. (They take the boat over to Germany or Estonia instead.) So the market is significally smaller.

Same thing with this immigration. As long as there's incentive to work there illegally, people will.

 

[Pure]

Irony

regarding what matriarch posted:

Suppose there were to be enacted [a law] saying: "Every employer must limit employment to 1) US citizens, or 2) by specific permission--legal, documented non citizen {'alien'} residents, who produce such documents for the employer to take a copy and verify. VERY nasty penalties, such as 'seizure' in the worst cases, jail and/or million dollar fines otherwise.

IMAGINE Republican trying to speak to this--those talking God and country and our unique moral approach: "This is a terrible idea to hire mainly US citizens and some 'legal' residents. US citizens demand too much money. Every red blooded American employer NEEDS the flexibility of illegal labor."

 

[SweetPrettyAss]

regarding what matriarch posted:

Suppose there were to be enacted saying: "Every employer must limit employment to 1) US citizens, or 2) by specific permission--legal, documented non citizen {'alien'} residents, who produce such documents for the employer to take a copy and verify. VERY nasty penalties, such as 'seizure' in the worst cases, jail and/or million dollar fines otherwise.

IMAGINE Republican trying to speak to this--those talking God and country and our unique moral approach: "This is a terrible idea to hire mainly US citizens and some 'legal' residents. US citizens demand too much money. Every red blooded American employer NEEDS the flexibility of illegal labor."

I think there are such laws but they are not enforced.

The same kind of approach could be used to fight the trade in illegal drugs. Legalize harmless, non addictive drugs, especially marijuana, and concentrate on what is actually dangerous. There would be less people in prison and nobody smuggling MJ and no street dealers to bother with. Then, go after consumers, those who provide a lucrative market for the dangerous drugs, including dealers.

 

[Pure]

Here's what I've found, of and about the law:

It sounds not too bad, but notice it's less strict than my proposal. The penalties are rather light, in practice.

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecentersbcdd?&printer_friendly=1

Summary of the Law


A person (including a group of persons, business, organization or local government) commits a federal felony when he:


· assists an alien whom he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him to obtain employment,

An employer has constructive knowledge that an employee is an illegal unauthorized worker if a reasonable person would infer it from the facts.10 Constructive knowledge constituting a violation of federal law has been found where (1) the I-9 employment eligibility form has not been properly completed, including supporting documentation, (2) the employer has learned from other individuals, media reports, or any source of information available to the employer, that the alien is unauthorized to work,

==
Federal Immigration and Nationality Act
Section 8 USC 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv)(b)(iii)

"Any person who . . . encourages or induces an illegal alien to . . . reside . . . knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such . . . residence is . . . in violation of law, shall be punished as provided . . . for each illegal alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs . . . fined under title 18 . . . imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both."

 

[LadyJeanne]

It sounds not too bad, but notice it's less strict than my proposal. The penalties are rather light, in practice.

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecentersbcdd?&printer_friendly=1

Summary of the Law


A person (including a group of persons, business, organization or local government) commits a federal felony when he:


· assists an alien whom he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him to obtain employment,

An employer has constructive knowledge that an employee is an illegal unauthorized worker if a reasonable person would infer it from the facts.10 Constructive knowledge constituting a violation of federal law has been found where (1) the I-9 employment eligibility form has not been properly completed, including supporting documentation, (2) the employer has learned from other individuals, media reports, or any source of information available to the employer, that the alien is unauthorized to work,

==
Federal Immigration and Nationality Act
Section 8 USC 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv)(b)(iii)

"Any person who . . . encourages or induces an illegal alien to . . . reside . . . knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such . . . residence is . . . in violation of law, shall be punished as provided . . . for each illegal alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs . . . fined under title 18 . . . imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both."

I looked into this, Pure. The INS is tasked with identifying employers who don't comply, and going after them. They don't have enough money or people to do so, so the employers are never fined.