Men, money, and relationships

[LadyJeanne]

It means like "taking ice to Iceland". We have a surfeit of gay men here. We're all gay. we don't need any.

Maybe that's why he saw a bit more 'action' than I did.

 

[tolyk]

That's an excellent point. People do make assumptions that I am career minded and prefer career to family when the truth is I have a career specifically because I don't have the family, which I'd prefer.

That's very understandable.. Need something to fill the void, eh?

Hmm.. never realised how dirty that phrase is..

 

[LadyJeanne]

I used to envy women at work who got maternity leave. But they found it hard to progress their careers.

Don't men get paternity leave over there? Men could take up to 3 months at my former employer. No one ever took more than a month, but they could.

 

[SweetVA]

I don't think it's about money. I think men might think that if you're career minded, they see you as"manly" -- i.e. assertive and independent. And some (stoopid) men don't like that.

I think you've hit it right on the head. I'm on a couple of dating sites.. I won't even look twice at a guy who indicates that he wants his partner to make less than he does. Shows a major lack of self esteem and an inability to deal with an independent woman. Won't work for me....

VA

 

[LadyJeanne]

That's very understandable.. Need something to fill the void, eh?

Hmm.. never realised how dirty that phrase is..

Lol!

It's not about filling the void in terms of 'doing' something with my time. More that I'm going to do the best damned job I can so I can take care of my financial security. That's very important to me coming from a background where I was on the free lunch program in school.

 

[mlady_france]

Seems these days more is expected of women, in that we are expected to have both a career an be still be the "happy homemaker". The idea of the happy little house wife always did apeal to me, but I found that I was being asked "but what career do you want" much more often than "how many kids do you want".

 

[Softouch911]

That's an excellent point. People do make assumptions that I am career minded and prefer career to family when the truth is I have a career specifically because I don't have the family, which I'd prefer.

At our house, we've got both, LJ .... and among my friends I think I have to agree with your premise. I constantly hear about how they couldn't stand to live like I do -- But I think I've got it pretty good --

I had a high-stress shitty job. She makes more than twice as much as I did. She really is career-minded, and it's paying of for her. Nice she's willing to share. She says, "You always want to spend time writing. So quit and write." I take care of the house and kids (when they were here). We joke that I'm her "Boy Toy" ... at least I think it's a joke.

Whatever problems I have with the arrangement aren't related to $$$ But I still think your point is right. I just mention it because there's no reason it can't work.



Softouch

 

[LadyJeanne]

At our house, we've got both, LJ .... and among my friends I think I have to agree with your premise. I constantly hear about how they couldn't stand to live like I do -- But I think I've got it pretty good --

I had a high-stress shitty job. She makes more than twice as much as I did. She really is career-minded, and it's paying of for her. Nice she's willing to share. She says, "You always want to spend time writing. So quit and write." I take care of the house and kids (when they were here). We joke that I'm her "Boy Toy" ... at least I think it's a joke.

Whatever problems I have with the arrangement aren't related to $$$ But I still think your point is right. I just mention it because there's no reason it can't work.



Softouch

I'm glad to hear that it does work. There isn't a logical reason it can't. But, I suppose, it's not really about logic and reason for men who can't stand it.

 

[LadyJeanne]

I think you've hit it right on the head. I'm on a couple of dating sites.. I won't even look twice at a guy who indicates that he wants his partner to make less than he does. Shows a major lack of self esteem and an inability to deal with an independent woman. Won't work for me....

VA

That issue actually comes up on dating sites???

 

[tolyk]

Lol!

It's not about filling the void in terms of 'doing' something with my time. More that I'm going to do the best damned job I can so I can take care of my financial security. That's very important to me coming from a background where I was on the free lunch program in school.

Completely understandable. I didn't grow up poor, but have never been well off. My dad was in the canadian army, but drank away all his excess money. So we didn't really have all that much.. I guess that's why I'm not a material person, so I'm rather thankful for it.. the only thing I treasure now is my photo albums of my kids, and my dragon statue collection (which I would mourn about losing, but would get over it quickly)

I'm glad I'm not the only one who found that void comment funny..

 

[LadyJeanne]

Seems these days more is expected of women, in that we are expected to have both a career an be still be the "happy homemaker". The idea of the happy little house wife always did apeal to me, but I found that I was being asked "but what career do you want" much more often than "how many kids do you want".

I'm amazed that we can ever get out of the way of our expectations to actually make love relationships work.

 

[rgraham666]

I'm amazed that we can ever get out of the way of our expectations to actually make love relationships work.

If you look at the divorce statistics, it's even more amazing.

 

[R. Richard]

From what I have read, I am on the other side of the situation.

A few years ago, I met a lady at a "downtown business mixer" and we were mutually attracted. I asked her out to supper, picked her up at her work and we seemed to hit it off. I again asked her out and she was willing, but she had to attend a party for one of her old friends. That was OK with me and we went to a by damn mansion in the rich part of town.

Once we got to the party, the only topic of the conversations I was in was money. The general theme of the conversations was "What does a po' boy like you think he is doing with a rich girl like that?" My reply was that I was a steadily employed professional, I owned a house that would fit comfortably within the single room we were in and I even had a little in the bank. I had not been attracted by rich lady's money, which I didn't know she had, but by her face, figure and "the usual things."

I was apparently branded a "gold digger" (if that is a proper term as applied to a male) and it was the last I was ever to see of her.

 

[mlady_france]

I'm amazed that we can ever get out of the way of our expectations to actually make love relationships work.

All we can really do is try our best to be everything WE want and hope for a man that understands. Here's wishing all women great success in everything they wish for. And men too

 

[LadyJeanne]

From what I have read, I am on the other side of the situation.

A few years ago, I met a lady at a "downtown business mixer" and we were mutually attracted. I asked her out to supper, picked her up at her work and we seemed to hit it off. I again asked her out and she was willing, but she had to attend a party for one of her old friends. That was OK with me and we went to a by damn mansion in the rich part of town.

Once we got to the party, the only topic of the conversations I was in was money. The general theme of the conversations was "What does a po' boy like you think he is doing with a rich girl like that?" My reply was that I was a steadily employed professional, I owned a house that would fit comfortably within the single room we were in and I even had a little in the bank. I had not been attracted by rich lady's money, which I didn't know she had, but by her face, figure and "the usual things."

I was apparently branded a "gold digger" (if that is a proper term as applied to a male) and it was the last I was ever to see of her.

It's so fitting that assumptions start with ASSes.

 

[Quiet_Cool]

I'll be honest, I'm a bit bothered by the idea that she might make more than me. Well, that's not entirely it; let me rephrase. I don't like the idea that she "support" me in any way. If we had a scenario where she paid half and I paid half, and the rest of the money went where it went, sobeit, but I wouldn't be comfortable with her paying the rent and me struggling by with the electric bills.

I can't say exactly why, though the things mentioned already do come into play. Insecurities, and whatnot. Truth is, in my experience, women tend to expect us to make more, not just gold-diggers, but nearly all of them. And a lot of women tend to make comments about being "independent" while not seeming to realize what the word means. I'm not implying that no women are truly independent, as has already been clarified here, merely that most women (most people, I admit, but in this case, I deal with women and not men) are anything but honest about who they are or what they're like, and too often, we deal with people for years before realizing who we're actually dealing with (and even then, they tend to surprise us with things, often not pleasant surprises).

I'm blue-collar at this point, and I'm talking about blue collar girls (the word women isn't appropriate in all cases, I know; same holds for the word men). Working against that type of experiences, I don't think I could really be comfortable with her paying more than I do. We could argue it's my own independence, and to a point, it is, but there's also the honest discomfort of being judged and not being seen (often by yourself) as good enough for the girl when she makes more. I wouldn't want or expect anyone to drop a good job or career because fo this feeling I have, but it might cause a bit of tension.

Of course, it might be the motivation I need to get a better fucking job too!

Q_C

 

[Weird Harold]

My position is that virtually all men would hate it, or at least be uncomfortable if the woman in their lives made more money than they did, to the point where that relationship would likely end unless the financial circumstances changed.

He said that's likely, unless he had a lower-paying job that had something else going for it...defending the country on military pay, teaching, ministers...

In my parents generation, not even his qualifier would apply -- men of that generation had a problem with women making or having money of their own period and most of the women do too.

My generation is a bit more comfortable withthe concept of a "working wife" but still have that "man is supposed to be the breadwinner" mentality from absorbing the attitudesof our parents about gender roles.

My daughters' generation is less locked into the traditional gender roles than mine and more into seeing marriage and relationship as a financial partnership where who makes the money is less important than how much there is. (My elder daughter makes more as an Avon Lady than her husband makes at a more conventional 9-5 job and it doesn't seem to bother either of them much.)

My granddaughters' generation will be even less locked into the traditional gender roles. Their male contemporaries seem much more comfortable with the concept of girls being smart and competent than my daughters contemporaies were at the same ages. That attitude could easily change as they move on into junior high, high school, and college, but they at least seem to be starting out with less gender role baggage than their parents did.

There still are, and probably always will be, "macho" types who are threatened by competent -- and solvent -- women but the numbers are slowly dwindling with each passing generation.

It might seem like there aren't any men who can accept you for who and what you are, but your odds of finding one are much better today than they were even ten or twenty years ago -- even among the "Blue collar" types.

 

[The_Fool]

It doesn't matter who makes it, it's already spent anyway.....

 

[LadyJeanne]

I'll be honest, I'm a bit bothered by the idea that she might make more than me. Well, that's not entirely it; let me rephrase. I don't like the idea that she "support" me in any way. If we had a scenario where she paid half and I paid half, and the rest of the money went where it went, sobeit, but I wouldn't be comfortable with her paying the rent and me struggling by with the electric bills.

I can't say exactly why, though the things mentioned already do come into play. Insecurities, and whatnot. Truth is, in my experience, women tend to expect us to make more, not just gold-diggers, but nearly all of them. And a lot of women tend to make comments about being "independent" while not seeming to realize what the word means. I'm not implying that no women are truly independent, as has already been clarified here, merely that most women (most people, I admit, but in this case, I deal with women and not men) are anything but honest about who they are or what they're like, and too often, we deal with people for years before realizing who we're actually dealing with (and even then, they tend to surprise us with things, often not pleasant surprises).

I'm blue-collar at this point, and I'm talking about blue collar girls (the word women isn't appropriate in all cases, I know; same holds for the word men). Working against that type of experiences, I don't think I could really be comfortable with her paying more than I do. We could argue it's my own independence, and to a point, it is, but there's also the honest discomfort of being judged and not being seen (often by yourself) as good enough for the girl when she makes more. I wouldn't want or expect anyone to drop a good job or career because fo this feeling I have, but it might cause a bit of tension.

Of course, it might be the motivation I need to get a better fucking job too!

Q_C

I appreciate your honesty, QC. I think your statement (which I highlighted in bold) is major part of the reasoning behing it. Even if the woman thinks he's good enough though he makes less money, the man thinks he's not good enough. And if he feels that way, sooner or later, he's going to leave and find someone that he can feel good being with.

 

[LadyJeanne]

In my parents generation, not even his qualifier would apply -- men of that generation had a problem with women making or having money of their own period and most of the women do too.

My generation is a bit more comfortable withthe concept of a "working wife" but still have that "man is supposed to be the breadwinner" mentality from absorbing the attitudesof our parents about gender roles.

My daughters' generation is less locked into the traditional gender roles than mine and more into seeing marriage and relationship as a financial partnership where who makes the money is less important than how much there is. (My elder daughter makes more as an Avon Lady than her husband makes at a more conventional 9-5 job and it doesn't seem to bother either of them much.)

My granddaughters' generation will be even less locked into the traditional gender roles. Their male contemporaries seem much more comfortable with the concept of girls being smart and competent than my daughters contemporaies were at the same ages. That attitude could easily change as they move on into junior high, high school, and college, but they at least seem to be starting out with less gender role baggage than their parents did.

There still are, and probably always will be, "macho" types who are threatened by competent -- and solvent -- women but the numbers are slowly dwindling with each passing generation.

It might seem like there aren't any men who can accept you for who and what you are, but your odds of finding one are much better today than they were even ten or twenty years ago -- even among the "Blue collar" types.

I agree that things are changing. I think I'm in that generation that's seeing the rewards of education and evolution of women in the workplace - women becoming successful and accepted as executives and not "just" secretaries - but society's views on that haven't necessarily caught up with the social reality of women outstripping men's average salaries.

 

[LadyJeanne]

It doesn't matter who makes it, it's already spent anyway.....

I guess cigars and chambord can eat away at anyone's budget, eh?

 

[SeaCat]

You know, it's funny how this crops up from time to time. It's even funnier how the answers never seem to vary much. I know a lot of guys, both blue and white collar who just can't get their minds around the idea their wife would even want to make more than them. (Hell I know a lot of women who can't think of a life where their husband made less than them.) Every time I run into one of these people just shake my head and wander away muttering into my beard about human stupidity.

My wife and I are both at the low end of the totem pole in Nursing. Neither of us makes a lot, but my wife does make a bit more than I do. (We won't get into the reasons behind that one!) I personaly could care less as long as the bills get paid. All of our money goes into the same banking account. It's not her money or my money, it's our money. (Likewise with our other posessions. It's not my car, it's our car. Everything but our clothes. While she can and does wear mine and get away with wearing my clothes I don't think it would cut it if I started wearing Bustiers and a thong. )

Cat

 

[The_Fool]

I guess cigars and chambord can eat away at anyone's budget, eh?

Cigars anyway....the chambord hasn't graced the liquor cabinet in quite a while. And I'm drinking bottled water....

The ACID cigar on the way home was rather tasty though.


I'm sure this has been said but I'll say it again anyway. Having a woman make more that the man can be construed to mean that the man is not supporting the woman (and himself) effectively, which is a blow to the masculinity. I think. I dunno. Just a thought.

 

[cantdog]

You know, it's funny how this crops up from time to time. It's even funnier how the answers never seem to vary much. I know a lot of guys, both blue and white collar who just can't get their minds around the idea their wife would even want to make more than them. (Hell I know a lot of women who can't think of a life where their husband made less than them.) Every time I run into one of these people just shake my head and wander away muttering into my beard about human stupidity.

My wife and I are both at the low end of the totem pole in Nursing. Neither of us makes a lot, but my wife does make a bit more than I do. (We won't get into the reasons behind that one!) I personaly could care less as long as the bills get paid. All of our money goes into the same banking account. It's not her money or my money, it's our money. (Likewise with our other posessions. It's not my car, it's our car. Everything but our clothes. While she can and does wear mine and get away with wearing my clothes I don't think it would cut it if I started wearing Bustiers and a thong. )

Cat

Sensible people brighten my day every time. It's our money, the man says. Exactly. Let 'em think what they think. Fuck 'em. A couple are in it together, hell or high water, or they aren't a couple. If the boys in the blue collar job (and I had those boys to work with for twenty years as a firefighter) give the man shit about it, all he has to do is not get ruffled. If you clearly don't care about the issue, and they can't get a rise out of you about it, they'll find something else to talk about before long. Easiest thing in the world to deal with.

All that "What will they all think?" jive is baloney. Life is a one-shot; if you're doing well enough to suit you, what the hell difference what anyone thinks?

 

[sophia jane]

Sensible people brighten my day every time. It's our money, the man says. Exactly. Let 'em think what they think. Fuck 'em. A couple are in it together, hell or high water, or they aren't a couple. If the boys in the blue collar job (and I had those boys to work with for twenty years as a firefighter) give the man shit about it, all he has to do is not get ruffled. If you clearly don't care about the issue, and they can't get a rise out of you about it, they'll find something else to talk about before long. Easiest thing in the world to deal with.

All that "What will they all think?" jive is baloney. Life is a one-shot; if you're doing well enough to suit you, what the hell difference what anyone thinks?

Well said!!

SJ