Men- explain yourselves

[Norajane]

But aren't you still cheating? If you make the connection when you're attached?

I'm just saying. When it comes to cheating I will never take the moral high ground. I've cheated before and, while I've not been sexually unfaithful to my current SO, the chances are probably good I'll do it again one day.

Depends on the connection. If it's a fleeting meeting, say at a party or something - then the flirtation and connection are one of those 'two ships passing in the night' kind of things. You recognize and acknowledge the mutual attraction and admiration, but that's all it is.

If you make a connection that you maintain, through other meetings and phone calls, that's just as much cheating as physically doing so. It's actually worse in some ways, because an emotional and mental connection runs much deeper than a one night stand or even a short sex fling.

I don't take the moral high ground either. I've been cheated on, and I've cheated in return (though not in a marriage). Being cheated on is much, much worse. After seeing someone's face after he's just been told what's been going on, I would never do it again.

 

[NoJo]

What I don't like is hearing someone talk badly about their sponse when I am with them.

I'm thinking that if you say this about the person you pledged to love for the rest of your life, what in the heck are you going to say about me?

I so agree with that. Bad-mouthing tells you something about the bad-mouther alone. But sometimes, people reach the end of their tether, and have to vent.

 

[123pickme3]

I agree with you in general - flirtation is a lot of fun when everyone understands there's nothing more behind it. It's a different kind of flirtation when there's interest in taking it further. I'll bet you can tell whether it's harmless or not just by watching your guy flirt at a party, right?

I was referring to his case specifically, though, where he and his wife are "pretty much sexless" years after the affair, and he flirts with others and doesn't see anything wrong with that.

The affair we worked through, that is not why we are pretty much sexless. It is a combination of several different things includeing her going through the change. We fight alot I don't know why. Are we staying together just for the kids I don't know we have alot of issues to work through or maybe we never will I don't know, and know I don't find talking and flirting with other women wrong after all it's not like I will ever meet these women. It is nice to talk to a woman who wants to talk and listen.

 

[NoJo]

I will reiterate yet again.

Relationships, real ones, supportive and loving, are just too fucking rare to jeopardise by cheating.

Maybe you can love more than one. But I'll bet that if your SO decides to follow that impulse, talked about or not, you'll be hurt beyond measure.

Grrrr. I can't understand my species at all.

I understand what you're saying, and, as you're repeating yourself, I'll repeat that I really think your point about it being part of a consumer society is true.

Most married people affairs I've known about have usually been caused in a large part by low self-esteem. Sometimes your partner makes your self-esteem lower (although they may not be to blame for your low self-esteem -- it may be something you've brought into the marriage from a prior relationship, or from childhood).

 

[woodnymph_O]

this all just leads me to say
"THIS IS WHY I AM SO SHOCKED TO SEE A MAN WITH ANY LOYALTY!
they are an amazing species and should be protected under federal law. I just wonder why it is so okay for some men to cheat, or women , but if the SO/husband/wife did the same thing to them they would be just as hurt pissed off and shocked. If you do it, expect it to come back, even the ones who try to forgive are gonna eventually give into the even the score addittude and make sure you have as much hurt to live with as they do .And why shouldn't they , I would probably be that way myself, why should i have to forgive you for something you won't forgive in me? and believe this if nothing else, a woman can get sex 10 times faster than a man , we don't have to promise to love them forever, or even that we will call. So go on and cheat, and then your time will come, and who will give you sympathy? No one
Nymphy

 

[impressive]

Timely article from The Onion:

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/44917&rss=1

 

[woodnymph_O]

You don't find anything wrong with that ????

Wouldn't it be better to be talking and flirting with your wife?

Sorry I had to give an amen to this one, try talking and flirting with the wife, what a novel idea .how about one of the passionate kisses you would give to a stranger, you don't even know where that persons mouth has been, but a woman who loves you , nope, they aren't worth tthe effort you would put into a stranger , now are they?
Nymphy

 

[cloudy]

I'm disheartened to see some of the subtle, and not so subtle, men-bashing that's going on in this thread.

Both genders cheat. I know that Sophia started out asking the question of men, but that's not an excuse to assume that ALL men cheat, or even that MOST cheaters are men.

Out of it now.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I wonder why we don't reverse the question and ask: Why do woman not cheat? Why have we let the female idea of lifelong monogamy become the ideal when divorce statistics suggest it doesn't seem to work for most people?

Why do we assume that monogamy is morally right and polyamory morally wrong?

 

[impressive]

I wonder why we don't reverse the question and ask: Why do woman not cheat? Why have we let the female idea of lifelong monogamy become the ideal when divorce statistics suggest it doesn't seem to work for most people?

Why do we assume that monogamy is morally right and polyamory morally wrong?

I don't think it's necessarily "women" who've decided the ideal, here, Doc.

I'm 100% with you on the moral assumptions question, though.

 

[elsol]

Both genders cheat. I know that Sophia started out asking the question of men, but that's not an excuse to assume that ALL men cheat, or even that MOST cheaters are men.

Actually from those 'psych tests', it's been proven women are more likely to cheat thean men.

Of course that could just mean that a man will lie to bitter fucking end even when there's nothing to lose and there's no way for him to be caught.


Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I don't think it's necessarily "women" who've decided the ideal, here, Doc.

I'm 100% with you on the moral assumptions question, though.

Yes, you're right. I stand corrected. But still, what's significant is that there's nothing especially "right" about being monogamous. It's just an assumption we make. (Unless you're Christian, in which case it's Divine Law. Not sure about that for Muslims, though. Or for Jews, actually.)

It's interesting that apes "cheat" too, or at least the females do. The males are opportunists, and will screw anything they can, but females are supposed to be loyal to the high-status male who claims them. They aren't though, and there's a lot of hanky-panky that goes on in the bushes when the Alpha Male's away. Apparently, Nature approves. It's supposed to good for the gene pool.

Also interesting that a survey mentioned in an article of female orgasm found that women are more orgasmic with lovers than they are with long-term partners.

This articles reports that and a lot of interesting stuff, like:

o A woman's capacity for orgasm depends not on her partner's sexual skill but on her subconscious evaluation of his genetic merits.

o Women's orgasm has little to do with love. Or experience.

o Good men are indeed hard to find.

o The men with the best genes make the worst mates.

o Women are no more built for monogamy than men are. They are designed to keep their options open.

o Women fake orgasm to divert a partner's attention from their infidelities.

The whole article's here:

http://health.yahoo.com/centers/sexual_health/1206

--Zoot

 

[NoJo]

Making inferences from from other species, times or even cultures when it comes to discussing fidelity is a little dangeorous.

The overwhelming factor as far as I can see, is economics.

 

[rgraham666]

Quite personally, I loathe the idea of polyamory.

It will merely sharpen competition in an activity I can barely compete in now.

In a polyamorous society, my chances of getting into a relationship would go from very low to effectively nil.

 

[Pure]

doc said,

I wonder why we don't reverse the question and ask: Why do woman not cheat? Why have we let the female idea of lifelong monogamy become the ideal when divorce statistics suggest it doesn't seem to work for most people?

Why do we assume that monogamy is morally right and polyamory morally wrong?

cloudy points to 'man bashing.'

the terms of the debate are skewed. totally exclusive monogamy is not written in stone by god. it's rare and only exists where society has fearsome backups for it.

the 'exclusive male' whose praises are sung by woodnymph, is a rare duck. any list of admirable male persons will be dominated by NON exclusive ones--I challenge her to prove otherwise. (see the doc's point about the 'best genes.) indeed, given a choice, women will chose the quality, non exclusive male most of the time, over 'exclusive' wimp or prig. Women: Who do you want, Martin King, or George W (or Sr.)? FDR or Richard Nixon? Churchill, or Pope John Paul or Benedict?

biology is the key, as the doc says. a man is likely to take a fuck that's offered.

why that is 'cheating,' has not been made clear or established. (the deeper sorts of infidelity of the heart are ignored).

I wouldn't say, however, 'why do women not cheat'-- we know at least a quarter of married women do and have (compared to more than half the men). as doc says, biology doesn't dictate female monogamy either: watch the talk shows where childrens DNA is compared to hubby's!

We might ask, however, why control of 'cheating' is such an obsession with some women. AND why they take promises about this as 'good as gold.' Any halfwit cluck is going to 'take the pledge' if the payoffs are set. It always amazes me that women, in this age, possibly a majority, believe they can improve their position by securing a marriage--a promise and a document.

why is that, nora?

 

[shereads]

I don't agree with that. My dog has never once licked my balls.

Damn. That coffee was hot. Who brought napkins?

 

[shereads]

Question:

If you lose interest in sex, what should your partner do?

(Be realistic. "He/she should try harder to seduce me" is a nice topic for a story, but not the point of the question. Let's assume the relationship is past that point, and your libido just won't kick back in.)

Should your partner -

- adjust to a lifetime without sex?

- insist that you continue to have sex?

- find sexual fulfillment outside the marriage? Openly? Secretly?

- get a divorce? With or without custody of the children?


Edited to add: I'm not here to defend adultery. Or monogamy, either. People change over time, and in an ideal world couples would change in compatible ways. If that were the case, the temptation to 'cheat' would always be just that: a temptation, like ordering dessert.

A vow of monogamy is like a vow not to change; when change comes, honoring the vow means that one or both partners are forced to choose whether to live without fulfillment, risk losing everything by being completely honest, or lie.

Too bad we're not open to a marriage-like institution that provides children with a stable, two-parent home. Couples would vow to respect each other's needs, and be honest. That's a vow anyone of honor could keep.

 

[cloudy]

Question:

If you lose interest in sex, what should your partner do?

(Be realistic. "He/she should try harder to seduce me" is a nice topic for a story, but not the point of the question. Let's assume the relationship is past that point, and your libido just won't kick back in.)

Should your partner -

- adjust to a lifetime without sex?

- insist that you continue to have sex?

- find sexual fulfillment outside the marriage? Openly? Secretly?

- get a divorce? With or without custody of the children?


Edited to add: I'm not here to defend adultery. Or monogamy, either. People change over time, and in an ideal world couples would change in compatible ways. If that were the case, the temptation to 'cheat' would always be just that: a temptation, like ordering dessert.

A vow of monogamy is like a vow not to change; when change comes, honoring the vow means that one or both partners are forced to choose whether to live without fulfillment, risk losing everything by being completely honest, or lie.

Too bad we're not open to a marriage-like institution that provides children with a stable, two-parent home. Couples would vow to respect each other's needs, and be honest. That's a vow anyone of honor could keep.

Could always go back to the way we used to do it:

A man married into his wife's clan. Any children resulting also belonged to that clan (not necessarily her). When one or the other had had enough, he simply left, or she packed his things, and set them outside. No hard feelings.

I like that.

 

[Pure]

sherToo bad we're not open to a marriage-like institution that provides children with a stable, two-parent home. Couples would vow to respect each other's needs, and be honest. That's a vow anyone of honor could keep

aye to that one! (extracting promises of monogamy from adults, esp. males, is like extracting promises of abstinence from teens!)

 

[zeb1094]

No!

 

[Pure]

ok, zeb, i agree there's a problem is she starts to have kids by another guy and expects the live-in partner-)fall)-guy to provide for them.

but then, he could move in too, same basic agreement.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Question:


Too bad we're not open to a marriage-like institution that provides children with a stable, two-parent home. Couples would vow to respect each other's needs, and be honest. That's a vow anyone of honor could keep.

I don't know what is meant by a "marriage-like institution". The closest we come to that would be a conjugal, sexually exclusive arrangement, which would be like marriage but without the formalities. I think most persons on this forum tend to lump both types of relationships together.

Then, we have the conjugal but non-exclusive type of relationship, either with or without the formality of marriage. Some would call such a relationship an "open marriage". The problem would be when she gets pregnant. The guy would almost certainly wonder "Is it mine or somebody else's?" Ideally, he might wonder but wouldn't really care but such an attitude might be rare. I like to think I would be that way but I don't know if I would, having never been in just such a situation. I have contributed and still am contributing to the welfare of my wife's offspring from a previous marriage, but there is no question of their parentage.

However, many men would feel ill-used and balk at the demands, financial, emotional and others, being placed on them because of a baby, if the baby was not his offspring. If the man were to father a child by another woman and pay support, the woman in the relationship would object to the drain on her resources. This might be mainly financial but could be more than that if the man wanted to be part of his child's life, as most men would.

 

[zeb1094]

ok, zeb, i agree there's a problem is she starts to have kids by another guy and expects the live-in partner-)fall)-guy to provide for them.

but then, he could move in too, same basic agreement.

You mistook my 'No'. I was in reference to the Thread Title.

Men - Explain yourselves. I answered. No!

I feel no need to explain my self. I was put on this earth to perform some function. What that is I have know idea as there was no instruction manual, nor trainning material provided me as to why I'm here.

Once someone can provide said materials then I will be happy to try and explain myself. Until then I will just plod along the best I can, living a life as good as I can. No regrets, no qualms, no explainations.

I'm me, deal with it.

 

[kendo1]

There seems to be a real downer on men in this thread.

We are not all like that.


Sex is not the be all and end all of a relationship- it is a part.
Sometimes it happens that your partner does not want sex when you do.
Respect their feelings and needs. It will pass, maybe.

My wife and I have had our ups and downs, and our ups and downs!, but I love her for who she is- not what she is.

Ken

 

[NoJo]

My experience is that married women have affairs approximately as much as men. Maybe my experience is not typical.

I think a "casual fling" is something that men are vaguely proud of, and women are ashamed of. So women don't like to call them that, preferring to use hyperbole like "torrid affair". Women tend to justify flings by pleading love.

The language may be different, but the dance is the same.