Memorial Day
- Thread starter Dreamweaver72
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Expertise
Omniscient, Omnipotent and Occasionally Charming
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EBW
I don't want to beat you over the head with this, since you at least made a half assed non-convincing "appology" but....
You can add my name to the chorus of those who think you were grossly out of line. Further, no we here in Canada do not celibrate Memorial Day. We honor our war dead on November 11 which is REMEMBERANCE DAY (ironic title since you completely fucked it up).
I'll send you a nickel for a poppie, and leave you with some advice, take it or leave it..... when you have a depth of knowledge that is as shallow as yours is on this subject it is best to keep your mouth shut and have some people think of you as a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.
I don't want to beat you over the head with this, since you at least made a half assed non-convincing "appology" but....
You can add my name to the chorus of those who think you were grossly out of line. Further, no we here in Canada do not celibrate Memorial Day. We honor our war dead on November 11 which is REMEMBERANCE DAY (ironic title since you completely fucked it up).
I'll send you a nickel for a poppie, and leave you with some advice, take it or leave it..... when you have a depth of knowledge that is as shallow as yours is on this subject it is best to keep your mouth shut and have some people think of you as a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.
Derya
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I like your quote at the end there Expertise, it's one of my Dad's favorites. I probably shouldn't comment any more in such an emotional post, but it has gotten to me to read through this and I just have a few things to say, so I'm going to say them because everyone does...
- A reminder folks MEN and WOMEN who have served and died for their countries...it's both!!! And the families who have suffered the losses, worries, adjustments, and pain.
- I will unequivocally shout from the tallest mountain I have not one ounce of respect or anything else for a draft dodger, anyone who fled to avoid the draft ( that includes the piece of trash that led our country for the past eight years). Serve your time in jail if that is your choice or elect to serve as a conscientous objector (spelling?). A man or woman, yes, has to determine for themselves what is right and what is wrong, but do it within the confines of the law. In these manners you can honor your country and still retain your right to be a citizen of such, otherwise, in my opinion GET OUT AND STAY OUT!
- The people who have served our country all through history deserve our respect and our thanks period....it is because of them that we HAVE THE FREEDOM TO PROTEST; TO PUBLICLY DENOUNCE OUR LEADERS; TO CHOOSE (in peacetime) WHETHER TO SERVE IN THE MILITARY OR NOT and any other freedom we take for granted.
- It seems the thread has commented quite a bit regarding Americans fighting the Nazis and how stopping Hitler was important and justified. Yes Hitler needed to be stopped and thank God it did eventually come to that, but don't fool yourselves, America went to war because the enemy brought the war to us and we ain't talking Germany. If Japan had not bombed Pearl Harbor...how much longer would it have been before we entered the war? Was incinerating Hiroshima and Nagasaki OK? More justified than killing Vietnamese? EVERY LAST THING ABOUT WAR AND CONFLICT IS AWFUL, INHUMANE, AND HORRIFIC, BUT IT HAPPENS. We are fortunate to still have the vantage point of a country who remains in essence a victor.
- The military cannot effectively perform as thousands of independent chiefs making individual decisions on every count. There has to be leadership, chain of command, etc and sometimes it is wrong. Our military is an entity made up of humans, and last I heard humans were an imperfect creation. So, yes sometimes, there are irreversible wrongs, crimes etc committed and just as there is "honor as well as dishonor among theives" there is "honor and dishonor among patriots".
- No one except those who have lived through and seen the horror of war are truly qualified to comment.
My Dad is a man who could never hunt because he couldn't kill an animal, who doesn't kill insects he finds in the house, who attends Mass every day of his life. He is a man who prays he will never be put in the position to decide the fate of another human being. Yet, this is the same man who served as a Marine at the end of WWII. He did not see combat and thanks God literally everyday for that, but he did not hesitate to enlist. He is but one of many men and women who are just like him, some who have not been so fortunate and have had their lives changed drastically forever. These are the people that we should honor.
http://megsplace.com/dolls/hatnature.gif
- A reminder folks MEN and WOMEN who have served and died for their countries...it's both!!! And the families who have suffered the losses, worries, adjustments, and pain.
- I will unequivocally shout from the tallest mountain I have not one ounce of respect or anything else for a draft dodger, anyone who fled to avoid the draft ( that includes the piece of trash that led our country for the past eight years). Serve your time in jail if that is your choice or elect to serve as a conscientous objector (spelling?). A man or woman, yes, has to determine for themselves what is right and what is wrong, but do it within the confines of the law. In these manners you can honor your country and still retain your right to be a citizen of such, otherwise, in my opinion GET OUT AND STAY OUT!
- The people who have served our country all through history deserve our respect and our thanks period....it is because of them that we HAVE THE FREEDOM TO PROTEST; TO PUBLICLY DENOUNCE OUR LEADERS; TO CHOOSE (in peacetime) WHETHER TO SERVE IN THE MILITARY OR NOT and any other freedom we take for granted.
- It seems the thread has commented quite a bit regarding Americans fighting the Nazis and how stopping Hitler was important and justified. Yes Hitler needed to be stopped and thank God it did eventually come to that, but don't fool yourselves, America went to war because the enemy brought the war to us and we ain't talking Germany. If Japan had not bombed Pearl Harbor...how much longer would it have been before we entered the war? Was incinerating Hiroshima and Nagasaki OK? More justified than killing Vietnamese? EVERY LAST THING ABOUT WAR AND CONFLICT IS AWFUL, INHUMANE, AND HORRIFIC, BUT IT HAPPENS. We are fortunate to still have the vantage point of a country who remains in essence a victor.
- The military cannot effectively perform as thousands of independent chiefs making individual decisions on every count. There has to be leadership, chain of command, etc and sometimes it is wrong. Our military is an entity made up of humans, and last I heard humans were an imperfect creation. So, yes sometimes, there are irreversible wrongs, crimes etc committed and just as there is "honor as well as dishonor among theives" there is "honor and dishonor among patriots".
- No one except those who have lived through and seen the horror of war are truly qualified to comment.
My Dad is a man who could never hunt because he couldn't kill an animal, who doesn't kill insects he finds in the house, who attends Mass every day of his life. He is a man who prays he will never be put in the position to decide the fate of another human being. Yet, this is the same man who served as a Marine at the end of WWII. He did not see combat and thanks God literally everyday for that, but he did not hesitate to enlist. He is but one of many men and women who are just like him, some who have not been so fortunate and have had their lives changed drastically forever. These are the people that we should honor.
http://megsplace.com/dolls/hatnature.gif
Expertise said:
The apology you refer to, I suppose, is half assed. I don't really apologize for my opinion but it may have hurt some feelings, which I kind of feel bad about,Henceforth it probably seemed less than 100%. It wasn't a tearful, sobbing "I was so wrong" because I still don't see that I was.
I suppose that my opinion is somewhat less valid because all I know about this subject comes from textbooks and not personal experience but I'm not sure if I agree with the "You weren't there, You can't judge" concept. How could we then have opinons on History's greatest tragedies? Is everyones opinion on the Civil war not vaild because none of us lived through it?
Maybe. Not for me though. I tend, I suppose, to over simplify moral decisions because I have a fairly strong moral compass on things. I have a pretty clear definition on right and wrong when it comes to certain things which probably comes off as a little arrogant. But I'm not complaining, It helps me sleep at night.
Ciao
Dreamweaver72
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I posted this as a thought for the Memorial holiday, I am suprised at the discussion that resulted. It was a great discussion, and I will reserve comment till later.
Dreamweaver72
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Yes EBW....Great, and interesting and enlightinging discussion by all, I didn't think a post such as this would raise the comments that have been posted, but alas I do get suprised now and then....To me it is tough...my best friend died in action June 2nd 1974, just outside Danag. I it make this time hard on me. Then on top of the knowledge from my old man, and my granfar;s record..I realized that the sacriface these men made.The Memorial day "holiday" has ment alot to me
Which must be brutal for you. If one thing that I would really hope came out of my posts here is that I sincerely hope that if we learned anything from the past century is that the solution to the problems we may have as a society is not to send thousands of young men and women(Happy, Derya?) off to die.
Dreamweaver72
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I think the brutal part for me is that my draft number was high enough not to be drafted, I missed by one number....1 lousy # made the difference on who lived or who died...This new generation doesn't even have to worry about it. Infact nobody has had to worrry about it for over 25 years. We all have our scars from that time period, The Veitnam era, from the ones who served, to the ones who fought in the streets, We are still healing from that era..But at this time I remember the friens that I have lost...The horrors that my old man went thru...The fight my granfar fought....and realize it was right and wrong...and who knows where we would be if it wasn't done?? Nobody can answer that.
Dreamweaver said:
Which, I guess, Is as legitimate a way to spend Memorial day as I've ever heard.
And You're right, nobody could answer it for sure. I'd like to think that if we could, as a species, reject the concept of war and violence that an awful lot of good people would still be alive today.
Comshaw
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Thanks EWB I found it. Now for my few chosen words on your post.
Let me say that I hold in high esteem people like Mohammed Ali, Bill Clinton, and all those that refused to fight. They were brave people who stood up for their principals. But I also hold all those that fought the war in as high esteem.
conflicting view points? not really. I can disagree with someone and still admire their courage. I very rarely speak about the war, but you have dug your fingers into a black scar on my soul, so I've got to scream back at you.
To start with I have to tell you who I am and was. I will be brutally honest about that.
I spent 11 months 15 days in Vietnam. I was medivac to San Francisco and spent 7 months in Letterman hospital. I was one of those young men that didn't say no. Why? Because I come from a long line of patriotic solders. Back 7 generations to be exact. In the 20th century my grandfather was in WWI, my father was in WWII, I was in the Vietnam war. I went to Vietnam because my country called. In my mind I was doing what my father had done and my grandfather before him. Serving my country. Was the war wrong? Yes it was. Did I know it at the time? No. I was a starry eyed 19 year old who had been raised on war stories. Stories of bravery and sacrifice. It was my turn to be the hero. Unfortunately I returned to a country that despised me. I was spit on, called a "fucking army robot" and told by a couple of WWII vets that Vietnam wasn't a real war. It took me years but I made my peace with my demons, no thanks to people like you who were there at every turn telling me I was a killer, an embarrassment to the country, compared to Nazi's and many, many other disparaging comments, after the fact of course. So your comments, though they hurt, aren't the first, or the worst to do so.
The Vietnam War wasn't easy for anybody. The NVA and VC lost countless people. Many, many Vietnamese civilians were killed. Many of the soldiers who fought were killed or maimed, the rest were despised by many in our society and those who refused to go were denigrated and hated by the others.
From your comments you seem to think it was an easy choice to go to war. You really believe that we wanted to face the reaper? That death didn't mean anything to us? That we knew better and just didn't care enough to complain? You my young friend are really ignorant of history and human nature.
You say that the only justified war in the 20th century was WWII. You compare the Viet vet to the Nazi's, the Khmer Rouge and the Serb's. You really believe that? Please, before you say any more read some history, talk to a few who were there. Did the Nazi's target civilian populations in England? They didn't put anything out of bounds because innocent civilians would be hurt did they? Read some history on the bombing War over North Vietnam.
The US Army and Marines marched millions into the killing fields and gunned them down, just like the Khmer Rouge, that's what your saying? If so who reported such things as the Mei Li(sorry 'bout the spelling) massacre? And why did they prosecute Lieutenant Cally? Read your history.
The soldiers in the Viet War raped, pillaged and murdered, just like the Serb's right? Please find the stat's for incarcerations in the Long Bin Jail for such things. Criminals were punished for their crimes. It was a war, civilians were killed, but not how you seem to believe it happened. We operated by the Geneva convention 99% of the time. And those times the military didn't, were such cases as Mei Li and those that were brought to light were prosecuted.
It's very easy to sit here, thirty years after the Vietnam war ended and judge those that fought it. Very easy and wrong. You can say what you wish, but you have no way of knowing how it was or why.
What I wish you would do is make sure of your facts before you spout rhetoric. You posted the comment, "I don't intimately know what the moral atmosphere was at any time then my own.". It seems you don't know much of anything about what was and what wasn't other then the head lines from that time. you accused other's of using emotional arguments, but you have done worse. You have used half truth's and opinion's as truth. You want to form an opinion on what was, or what you think it should have been? Try being honest with yourself for a while.
As I said in the beginning, the war was wrong, but you make it sound like we were there to kill every living thing that moved. If that were true, why did Cally go to jail? Why was almost 90% of North Vietnam out of bounds to our bombers? Please, get all the facts before you go off half cocked.
EWB said,"...don't ask me to stand up and cheer."
I won't ask and haven't expected anyone else to for twenty some odd years. What I do expect is for people like you to leave my scars alone. Quit poking at them. I've made my peace and I'm comfortable with who I am. If there is one thing society gave me, it's the capacity to be self sufficient. I don't need or want your approval. I can be brutally honest with myself if need be, can you?
On that note, let me ask you about this:
I was raised 18 miles from the Canadian border. Over the years I've noticed a strange occurrence, what is it about you Canadians? On one hand you scream to high heaven if someone from this side of the border makes a comment on anything up there (not that I've ever noticed any flood of comments on Canadian politics or social ills from this side of the border, I wonder why that is?). I've heard from many up there that we are trying to "take over" your country by some unknown but nefarious means.
On the other hand, ya'll seem to love to comment on goings on here in the states, having no compunction what so ever on stating your feeling for or against anything happening here. Interesting. Two observations here: Your house is so goddamn boring you have to watch your neighbors for something to talk about? And you can live comfortably with a double standard, do as I say and not as I do?
Anyway see ya.
Comshaw
Let me say that I hold in high esteem people like Mohammed Ali, Bill Clinton, and all those that refused to fight. They were brave people who stood up for their principals. But I also hold all those that fought the war in as high esteem.
conflicting view points? not really. I can disagree with someone and still admire their courage. I very rarely speak about the war, but you have dug your fingers into a black scar on my soul, so I've got to scream back at you.
To start with I have to tell you who I am and was. I will be brutally honest about that.
I spent 11 months 15 days in Vietnam. I was medivac to San Francisco and spent 7 months in Letterman hospital. I was one of those young men that didn't say no. Why? Because I come from a long line of patriotic solders. Back 7 generations to be exact. In the 20th century my grandfather was in WWI, my father was in WWII, I was in the Vietnam war. I went to Vietnam because my country called. In my mind I was doing what my father had done and my grandfather before him. Serving my country. Was the war wrong? Yes it was. Did I know it at the time? No. I was a starry eyed 19 year old who had been raised on war stories. Stories of bravery and sacrifice. It was my turn to be the hero. Unfortunately I returned to a country that despised me. I was spit on, called a "fucking army robot" and told by a couple of WWII vets that Vietnam wasn't a real war. It took me years but I made my peace with my demons, no thanks to people like you who were there at every turn telling me I was a killer, an embarrassment to the country, compared to Nazi's and many, many other disparaging comments, after the fact of course. So your comments, though they hurt, aren't the first, or the worst to do so.
The Vietnam War wasn't easy for anybody. The NVA and VC lost countless people. Many, many Vietnamese civilians were killed. Many of the soldiers who fought were killed or maimed, the rest were despised by many in our society and those who refused to go were denigrated and hated by the others.
From your comments you seem to think it was an easy choice to go to war. You really believe that we wanted to face the reaper? That death didn't mean anything to us? That we knew better and just didn't care enough to complain? You my young friend are really ignorant of history and human nature.
You say that the only justified war in the 20th century was WWII. You compare the Viet vet to the Nazi's, the Khmer Rouge and the Serb's. You really believe that? Please, before you say any more read some history, talk to a few who were there. Did the Nazi's target civilian populations in England? They didn't put anything out of bounds because innocent civilians would be hurt did they? Read some history on the bombing War over North Vietnam.
The US Army and Marines marched millions into the killing fields and gunned them down, just like the Khmer Rouge, that's what your saying? If so who reported such things as the Mei Li(sorry 'bout the spelling) massacre? And why did they prosecute Lieutenant Cally? Read your history.
The soldiers in the Viet War raped, pillaged and murdered, just like the Serb's right? Please find the stat's for incarcerations in the Long Bin Jail for such things. Criminals were punished for their crimes. It was a war, civilians were killed, but not how you seem to believe it happened. We operated by the Geneva convention 99% of the time. And those times the military didn't, were such cases as Mei Li and those that were brought to light were prosecuted.
It's very easy to sit here, thirty years after the Vietnam war ended and judge those that fought it. Very easy and wrong. You can say what you wish, but you have no way of knowing how it was or why.
What I wish you would do is make sure of your facts before you spout rhetoric. You posted the comment, "I don't intimately know what the moral atmosphere was at any time then my own.". It seems you don't know much of anything about what was and what wasn't other then the head lines from that time. you accused other's of using emotional arguments, but you have done worse. You have used half truth's and opinion's as truth. You want to form an opinion on what was, or what you think it should have been? Try being honest with yourself for a while.
As I said in the beginning, the war was wrong, but you make it sound like we were there to kill every living thing that moved. If that were true, why did Cally go to jail? Why was almost 90% of North Vietnam out of bounds to our bombers? Please, get all the facts before you go off half cocked.
EWB said,"...don't ask me to stand up and cheer."
I won't ask and haven't expected anyone else to for twenty some odd years. What I do expect is for people like you to leave my scars alone. Quit poking at them. I've made my peace and I'm comfortable with who I am. If there is one thing society gave me, it's the capacity to be self sufficient. I don't need or want your approval. I can be brutally honest with myself if need be, can you?
On that note, let me ask you about this:
I was raised 18 miles from the Canadian border. Over the years I've noticed a strange occurrence, what is it about you Canadians? On one hand you scream to high heaven if someone from this side of the border makes a comment on anything up there (not that I've ever noticed any flood of comments on Canadian politics or social ills from this side of the border, I wonder why that is?). I've heard from many up there that we are trying to "take over" your country by some unknown but nefarious means.
On the other hand, ya'll seem to love to comment on goings on here in the states, having no compunction what so ever on stating your feeling for or against anything happening here. Interesting. Two observations here: Your house is so goddamn boring you have to watch your neighbors for something to talk about? And you can live comfortably with a double standard, do as I say and not as I do?
Anyway see ya.
Comshaw
I appreciate the fact that you must have taken some time to write that and as such you missed the general consensus of moving on. Still I'm kind of off this subject now so I don't really have time or inclination to respond here.
I'll say a few things. One are my uses of examples imperfect? sure. Do I think that what Vietnam Vets did was comparable to SS officers? Not all of them certainly. What I wanted to say is that the people who have committed the most heinous, brutal acts in history probably thought they were right and were brought on by the atmosphere of the time. It is unfortunate that people can't see why I used those examples but I realize that its an emotional thing for you.
Also, I really am past this so I'm not going into specifics but I'd disagree with almost everytime you interpreted things I said. I think you're twisting everything I said to show me as heartless as possible and if that makes you feel better than fine.
Finally, I didn't bring up the Vietnam war. I commented on someone else bringing it up. What I was trying to say(Unsuccessfully, admittedly) was that Society seems to be saying that Vietnam is growing more and more acceptable. Try to understand that I think it was dead wrong for anyone to be there, war criminal and every day soldier. Men like Ali and others seem to be losing respect in peoples eyes(Notice Derya's comment for instance) and that drives me up the wall. I'd love to let you get on with your life and heal but American society seems hellbent on making Vietnam a good war. You criticize those who wouldn't fight, We make fun of those who went to jail, we don't respect those who made the world a better place and respected commentators like Bob Novak or Bill Maher both have said "It was a principaled war". Society brings it up. I react to it. I suppose I can be honest with myself.
Canada? Yes it is that boring, Yes we do fear the most powerful nation in the world exerting too much influence on us(See NAFTA) and we do have a certain degree of nosyness. And I would contend that I've never heard any Canadian complain about Americans commenting on our issues. I'd be knocked off my ass if an American knew one of our issues quite frankly. So there isn't a double standard in the least. Feel free to comment on Canada. It doesn't happen much.
Why don't you hear America criticize Canada's social policy? Because it'd be like the pot calling the refridgerator black. The UN seems to think we're the best country in the world. 6 years running.
[Edited by EvilBollWeevil on 05-26-2001 at 02:10 AM]
I'll say a few things. One are my uses of examples imperfect? sure. Do I think that what Vietnam Vets did was comparable to SS officers? Not all of them certainly. What I wanted to say is that the people who have committed the most heinous, brutal acts in history probably thought they were right and were brought on by the atmosphere of the time. It is unfortunate that people can't see why I used those examples but I realize that its an emotional thing for you.
Also, I really am past this so I'm not going into specifics but I'd disagree with almost everytime you interpreted things I said. I think you're twisting everything I said to show me as heartless as possible and if that makes you feel better than fine.
Finally, I didn't bring up the Vietnam war. I commented on someone else bringing it up. What I was trying to say(Unsuccessfully, admittedly) was that Society seems to be saying that Vietnam is growing more and more acceptable. Try to understand that I think it was dead wrong for anyone to be there, war criminal and every day soldier. Men like Ali and others seem to be losing respect in peoples eyes(Notice Derya's comment for instance) and that drives me up the wall. I'd love to let you get on with your life and heal but American society seems hellbent on making Vietnam a good war. You criticize those who wouldn't fight, We make fun of those who went to jail, we don't respect those who made the world a better place and respected commentators like Bob Novak or Bill Maher both have said "It was a principaled war". Society brings it up. I react to it. I suppose I can be honest with myself.
Canada? Yes it is that boring, Yes we do fear the most powerful nation in the world exerting too much influence on us(See NAFTA) and we do have a certain degree of nosyness. And I would contend that I've never heard any Canadian complain about Americans commenting on our issues. I'd be knocked off my ass if an American knew one of our issues quite frankly. So there isn't a double standard in the least. Feel free to comment on Canada. It doesn't happen much.
Why don't you hear America criticize Canada's social policy? Because it'd be like the pot calling the refridgerator black. The UN seems to think we're the best country in the world. 6 years running.
[Edited by EvilBollWeevil on 05-26-2001 at 02:10 AM]
Two more things.
First, You say I present opinions and Half truths as truths. I have no doubt about the first part but please, use an example of where I'm lying. Just saying that I'm wrong doesn't actually prove me wrong.
Also, I've noticed that a lot of you have been calling me EWB. Is this a making-fun-of-me thing that I'm not hip to?
Is it Evil Wussy Bitch?
First, You say I present opinions and Half truths as truths. I have no doubt about the first part but please, use an example of where I'm lying. Just saying that I'm wrong doesn't actually prove me wrong.
Also, I've noticed that a lot of you have been calling me EWB. Is this a making-fun-of-me thing that I'm not hip to?
Is it Evil Wussy Bitch?
brazenblaze
Literotica Guru
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The Veteran/Soldier
http://www.aristotle.net/memorial/the wall
"It is the soldier, not the reporter, Who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet, Who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier, Who salutes the flag, Who serves beneath the flag, And whose coffin is draped by the flag, Who allows the protestor to burn the flag."
Father Denis Edward O'Brien,
USMC
For Those who fought for it
FREEDOM
Has a taste the protected
Will never know
http://www.aristotle.net/memorial/the wall
"It is the soldier, not the reporter, Who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet, Who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier, Who salutes the flag, Who serves beneath the flag, And whose coffin is draped by the flag, Who allows the protestor to burn the flag."
Father Denis Edward O'Brien,
USMC
For Those who fought for it
FREEDOM
Has a taste the protected
Will never know
Comshaw
VAGITARIAN
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2000
- Posts
- 12,365
EWB posted:
"I appreciate the fact that you must have taken some time to write that and as such you missed the general consensus of moving on. Still I'm kind of off this subject now so I don't really have time or inclination to respond here."
Let me say this up front, if you are tired of this discussion, don't respond to this, don't even read it.
I didn't miss anything, unlike you who seems to have missed most of the point of my earlier post.
As for "moving on" because you don't have the inclination to respond, you should have done that, or at the least thought about what you were about to say, before you started this whole thing.
Unlike some I don't live here. I've got a life. I'm an occasional visitor and will be behind most of these discussions. But please don't ask me to shut up and move on went a subject that has effected me so drastically and so deeply is being bantered about.
Sorry about that opinion as truth comment. What I meant to say is you use opinion as fact not truth. What I was implying was that you were using an emotional argument in place of facts. All that does is stir up the pot, it never proves a point. When? How about when you compare the Viet vet to the Nazi's? Or the Serb's? Or this that you posted:
"The government gave these kids the guns, They pulled the triggers. No choice? Ask the people who rotted in jail for saying that they wouldn't be killers at the governments whim and fancy. They sure as hell did have control over their own actions in the war. They should have known better. German troops in WW2 should have known better. The men that were ordered by Calley to massacre civilians should have said NO. Believed they were doing the right thing?? IN what fucked up world is that justification for the atrocities committed." and "These men who died for nothing or the crimes committed by the ones who came home."
You make it sound like Calley came skipping home to the accolades of the populous, instead of being dragged home in chains and put in prison, and that every other soldier there committed atrocities. Opinion, rhetoric stated as fact.
The problem here is that you have been saying that the soldier was at fault for the war and should have stopped it. Again I'll say, you have no fucking idea what it was like and what the view was like from where I was.
I love youngsters like you that have 20/20 hindsight.
Posted by EBW: "I like to criticize lots of people from the past though."and "These were men who made the wrong choice, to listen to their government when the should have known better."and "And every single Man who said
"I will not fight" showed more spiritual courage than a Boatload of Marines facing heavy fire."
To paraphrase a quote from a movie,"How's the view from the cheap seats EWB?" It is so easy to critisize when you have never put your ass on the line, never had to make that decision to face death or face prison. There is a reason I use the tag line I do.
Your absolutely sure we should have know better? If you are, even though you have no facts to back up your assertion, only your opinion on it, I'll let it drop. I can argue facts, I can't argue with someone that has none but still believes they are right.
I know you didn't mention Vietnam first, but you did make some very disparaging comment about the soldiers that went to Vietnam. You really believe America is trying to make Vietnam a good war? If you do I pity you, for you have no sense of what is. What America has been doing is trying to accept those they sent to war 30 odd years ago, not justify the war. As I said before makes no difference to me, I've made my peace. I don't expect a pat on the back for my service. Over the years I've learned the hand that pat's you more then likely has a knife in it.
EWB posted: "Try to understand that I think it was dead wrong for anyone to be there, war criminal and every day soldier."
I understand that, and I believe I said the same in my post, but it still doesn't excuse your comparisons with the Nazi's. Those are two different and distinct issues, and your post was nothing more then an emotional attempt to hide the fact that you didn't know what you were talking about.
Posted by:
"Men like Ali and others seem to be losing respect
in peoples eyes(Notice Derya's comment for instance) and that drives me up the wall. I'd love to let you get on with your life and heal but American society seems hellbent on making Vietnam a good war."
I assume your talking about this post by Derya:
"I will unequivocally shout from the tallest mountain I have not one ounce of respect or anything else for a draft dodger, anyone who fled to avoid the draft ( that includes the piece of trash that led our country for the past eight years). Serve your time in jail if that is your choice or elect to serve as a conscientous objector (spelling?)"
Sorry to burst your bubble , but that type of opinion has been around since this whole debate started thirty odd years ago. It's not new and men like Ali have only lost in the eyes of those who don't agree with your way of thinking. As for me, please reread my earlier post. Apparently you didn't read it very well.
Anyway, I'm going to let this drop after one last comment. I know I can't change your mind. your facts are none existent, your too emotional to take a cool look at what you're saying, and your logic is all wrong. No?
Let see if I can put this all together.
Your contention is that the Viet Vet are on a par with the Nazi's, Kymer Rouge and Serb's. And the reason they are on a par is because war atrocities were committed by all those groups. Right so far? You conveniently ignore the fact that the US prosecuted those caught doing such things, and that the degree of occurrence are different. Millions of Jews, Cambodia's and those killed by the Serb's don't equate to the comparatively few innocents killed by the US in Vietnam(notice I didn't say killed. The NVA killed more civilians in the south then the US did with bombs in the North.) So even though the degree isn't the same the action in any form is cause for equal comparison, right?
The individual soldiers could have stopped all of those killings by just saying "No".
Have I got the gist of your comments so far?
So i'm a war criminal and should be treated like all those at Nuremberg, right?
OK, on another tack, you posted:
"Because it'd be like the pot calling the refridgerator black. The UN seems to think we're the best country in the world. 6 years running."
So let me sum up; I take it Canada has no crime, no murders, no rapes, has no political problems, has taken care of all your poor and destitute peoples? If not, if you have just one incident of any of these problems, then by your own logic Canada is in no better social shape then the US. If that true then it's your fault because you live there and you can change things. Therefore you should be brought to justice for allowing such things to go on in your country.
And as for the UN naming Canada the best country, I believe The Vietnam War was sanctioned by the UN, so I guess it makes that war justified then. No? If that esteemed body can be wrong about the war, they can damn sure be wrong about other things.
I'll let go now. As I said before, what ever you say it can't be as bad as has been said. One last suggestion, since you seem to have a lot of passion in you, why not get involved and make a differance, rather then throw things from the peanut gallery and spend your life criticizing others?
Comshaw
"I appreciate the fact that you must have taken some time to write that and as such you missed the general consensus of moving on. Still I'm kind of off this subject now so I don't really have time or inclination to respond here."
Let me say this up front, if you are tired of this discussion, don't respond to this, don't even read it.
I didn't miss anything, unlike you who seems to have missed most of the point of my earlier post.
As for "moving on" because you don't have the inclination to respond, you should have done that, or at the least thought about what you were about to say, before you started this whole thing.
Unlike some I don't live here. I've got a life. I'm an occasional visitor and will be behind most of these discussions. But please don't ask me to shut up and move on went a subject that has effected me so drastically and so deeply is being bantered about.
Sorry about that opinion as truth comment. What I meant to say is you use opinion as fact not truth. What I was implying was that you were using an emotional argument in place of facts. All that does is stir up the pot, it never proves a point. When? How about when you compare the Viet vet to the Nazi's? Or the Serb's? Or this that you posted:
"The government gave these kids the guns, They pulled the triggers. No choice? Ask the people who rotted in jail for saying that they wouldn't be killers at the governments whim and fancy. They sure as hell did have control over their own actions in the war. They should have known better. German troops in WW2 should have known better. The men that were ordered by Calley to massacre civilians should have said NO. Believed they were doing the right thing?? IN what fucked up world is that justification for the atrocities committed." and "These men who died for nothing or the crimes committed by the ones who came home."
You make it sound like Calley came skipping home to the accolades of the populous, instead of being dragged home in chains and put in prison, and that every other soldier there committed atrocities. Opinion, rhetoric stated as fact.
The problem here is that you have been saying that the soldier was at fault for the war and should have stopped it. Again I'll say, you have no fucking idea what it was like and what the view was like from where I was.
I love youngsters like you that have 20/20 hindsight.
Posted by EBW: "I like to criticize lots of people from the past though."and "These were men who made the wrong choice, to listen to their government when the should have known better."and "And every single Man who said
"I will not fight" showed more spiritual courage than a Boatload of Marines facing heavy fire."
To paraphrase a quote from a movie,"How's the view from the cheap seats EWB?" It is so easy to critisize when you have never put your ass on the line, never had to make that decision to face death or face prison. There is a reason I use the tag line I do.
Your absolutely sure we should have know better? If you are, even though you have no facts to back up your assertion, only your opinion on it, I'll let it drop. I can argue facts, I can't argue with someone that has none but still believes they are right.
I know you didn't mention Vietnam first, but you did make some very disparaging comment about the soldiers that went to Vietnam. You really believe America is trying to make Vietnam a good war? If you do I pity you, for you have no sense of what is. What America has been doing is trying to accept those they sent to war 30 odd years ago, not justify the war. As I said before makes no difference to me, I've made my peace. I don't expect a pat on the back for my service. Over the years I've learned the hand that pat's you more then likely has a knife in it.
EWB posted: "Try to understand that I think it was dead wrong for anyone to be there, war criminal and every day soldier."
I understand that, and I believe I said the same in my post, but it still doesn't excuse your comparisons with the Nazi's. Those are two different and distinct issues, and your post was nothing more then an emotional attempt to hide the fact that you didn't know what you were talking about.
Posted by:
"Men like Ali and others seem to be losing respect
in peoples eyes(Notice Derya's comment for instance) and that drives me up the wall. I'd love to let you get on with your life and heal but American society seems hellbent on making Vietnam a good war."
I assume your talking about this post by Derya:
"I will unequivocally shout from the tallest mountain I have not one ounce of respect or anything else for a draft dodger, anyone who fled to avoid the draft ( that includes the piece of trash that led our country for the past eight years). Serve your time in jail if that is your choice or elect to serve as a conscientous objector (spelling?)"
Sorry to burst your bubble , but that type of opinion has been around since this whole debate started thirty odd years ago. It's not new and men like Ali have only lost in the eyes of those who don't agree with your way of thinking. As for me, please reread my earlier post. Apparently you didn't read it very well.
Anyway, I'm going to let this drop after one last comment. I know I can't change your mind. your facts are none existent, your too emotional to take a cool look at what you're saying, and your logic is all wrong. No?
Let see if I can put this all together.
Your contention is that the Viet Vet are on a par with the Nazi's, Kymer Rouge and Serb's. And the reason they are on a par is because war atrocities were committed by all those groups. Right so far? You conveniently ignore the fact that the US prosecuted those caught doing such things, and that the degree of occurrence are different. Millions of Jews, Cambodia's and those killed by the Serb's don't equate to the comparatively few innocents killed by the US in Vietnam(notice I didn't say killed. The NVA killed more civilians in the south then the US did with bombs in the North.) So even though the degree isn't the same the action in any form is cause for equal comparison, right?
The individual soldiers could have stopped all of those killings by just saying "No".
Have I got the gist of your comments so far?
So i'm a war criminal and should be treated like all those at Nuremberg, right?
OK, on another tack, you posted:
"Because it'd be like the pot calling the refridgerator black. The UN seems to think we're the best country in the world. 6 years running."
So let me sum up; I take it Canada has no crime, no murders, no rapes, has no political problems, has taken care of all your poor and destitute peoples? If not, if you have just one incident of any of these problems, then by your own logic Canada is in no better social shape then the US. If that true then it's your fault because you live there and you can change things. Therefore you should be brought to justice for allowing such things to go on in your country.
And as for the UN naming Canada the best country, I believe The Vietnam War was sanctioned by the UN, so I guess it makes that war justified then. No? If that esteemed body can be wrong about the war, they can damn sure be wrong about other things.
I'll let go now. As I said before, what ever you say it can't be as bad as has been said. One last suggestion, since you seem to have a lot of passion in you, why not get involved and make a differance, rather then throw things from the peanut gallery and spend your life criticizing others?
Comshaw
Again, what's with the EWB????
It's EBW, Dammit!!!
EBW.
It isn't that hard to get it right. Not that hard at all. Christ sakes!
Also, the average Nazi soldier didn't kill any Jews. He simply fought for Hitler. It was the SS who killed most of the Jews.
Also, while I appreciate the assumptions you make about me I've been arrested and jailed numerous times for standing up to the corrupt actions of my Government. I do make a difference. I do know what it's like(Well, not the facing death part, unless you count my contention that by not fighting the Companies that are poisoning the World we'll all die) to make the difficult choice between compliance and jail. Sorry to burst your Bubble.
The only other thing I'll say is about what I'd rather be the theme of this thread.
You say:
I know you didn't mention Vietnam first, but you did make some very disparaging comment about the soldiers that went to Vietnam. You really believe America is trying to make Vietnam a good war? If you do I pity you, for you have no sense of what is. What America has been doing is trying to accept those they sent to war 30 odd years ago, not justify the war
If that's the case then why are the people who didn't serve, like Bubba, so roasted for it? Why is Draft Dodger a bad name? If your contention were the case then a Bill Clinton or W wouldn't be made fun of for skipping out of service.
You further say:
Sorry to burst your bubble , but that type of opinion has been around since this whole debate started thirty odd years ago. It's not new and men like Ali have only lost in the eyes of those who don't agree with your way of thinking.
Wouldn't you say, judging by the reaction to what I've said, that the amount of people who disagree with the way I think is pretty sizeable?? It seems like a lot of people have lost respect for Ali if the criteria was not agreeing with what I've said than every person who's posted besides me has lost respect for those who went to jail, and that is what I dislike so heartily.
Finally, you say:
Let see if I can put this all together.
Your contention is that the Viet Vet are on a par with the Nazi's, Kymer Rouge and Serb's. And the reason they are on a par is because war atrocities were committed by all those groups. Right so far?
Actually I'm not sure you could get it more wrong. The atrocities aren't what tie these groups together but that they, IMHO, served when they shouldn't have. But you, like most people who have posted, find it more convenient to paint what I've said as a vicious attack on everyone and everything Military so you can take this BS highroad. WHich is fine but it doesn't help you to so bizarrely twist what I say.
[Edited by EvilBollWeevil on 05-26-2001 at 04:01 PM]
It's EBW, Dammit!!!
EBW.
It isn't that hard to get it right. Not that hard at all. Christ sakes!
Also, the average Nazi soldier didn't kill any Jews. He simply fought for Hitler. It was the SS who killed most of the Jews.
Also, while I appreciate the assumptions you make about me I've been arrested and jailed numerous times for standing up to the corrupt actions of my Government. I do make a difference. I do know what it's like(Well, not the facing death part, unless you count my contention that by not fighting the Companies that are poisoning the World we'll all die) to make the difficult choice between compliance and jail. Sorry to burst your Bubble.
The only other thing I'll say is about what I'd rather be the theme of this thread.
You say:
I know you didn't mention Vietnam first, but you did make some very disparaging comment about the soldiers that went to Vietnam. You really believe America is trying to make Vietnam a good war? If you do I pity you, for you have no sense of what is. What America has been doing is trying to accept those they sent to war 30 odd years ago, not justify the war
If that's the case then why are the people who didn't serve, like Bubba, so roasted for it? Why is Draft Dodger a bad name? If your contention were the case then a Bill Clinton or W wouldn't be made fun of for skipping out of service.
You further say:
Sorry to burst your bubble , but that type of opinion has been around since this whole debate started thirty odd years ago. It's not new and men like Ali have only lost in the eyes of those who don't agree with your way of thinking.
Wouldn't you say, judging by the reaction to what I've said, that the amount of people who disagree with the way I think is pretty sizeable?? It seems like a lot of people have lost respect for Ali if the criteria was not agreeing with what I've said than every person who's posted besides me has lost respect for those who went to jail, and that is what I dislike so heartily.
Finally, you say:
Let see if I can put this all together.
Your contention is that the Viet Vet are on a par with the Nazi's, Kymer Rouge and Serb's. And the reason they are on a par is because war atrocities were committed by all those groups. Right so far?
Actually I'm not sure you could get it more wrong. The atrocities aren't what tie these groups together but that they, IMHO, served when they shouldn't have. But you, like most people who have posted, find it more convenient to paint what I've said as a vicious attack on everyone and everything Military so you can take this BS highroad. WHich is fine but it doesn't help you to so bizarrely twist what I say.
[Edited by EvilBollWeevil on 05-26-2001 at 04:01 PM]
Dreamweaver72
Experienced
- Joined
- May 1, 2001
- Posts
- 39
Well it is good to see dialog about this whole subject, This wasn't what I expected when I wrote my little item, It was just a rememberance. But after reading thru the whole thing once more, I want to add just a few of my own views.
Comshaw, I hope I got the mame right...From the other side of the fence, we all didn't despise the men who came back, If you know what was happening at the time, We understood, Unfortunatly, ignorance was rampart then as it is now.
That will be the only one I will respond to by name, as for the rest I would add: Hindsight is a wonderful thing, as we get past an event, it becomes easier to think of what could be changed,
Pacfist...Neville Chamberlain was one, Woodrow Wilson was one, and littered through out history there are people who wanted peace, and would give anything for it, But as history has proven, sometimes there ain't no choice but to fight...
Now that doesn't mean we have to continue to have war, we can learn not to war, But with the human race there is always someone who comes along, and has to be put down, But as a species we are getting better.
Again thanks for the responses, and Peace!
Comshaw, I hope I got the mame right...From the other side of the fence, we all didn't despise the men who came back, If you know what was happening at the time, We understood, Unfortunatly, ignorance was rampart then as it is now.
That will be the only one I will respond to by name, as for the rest I would add: Hindsight is a wonderful thing, as we get past an event, it becomes easier to think of what could be changed,
Pacfist...Neville Chamberlain was one, Woodrow Wilson was one, and littered through out history there are people who wanted peace, and would give anything for it, But as history has proven, sometimes there ain't no choice but to fight...
Now that doesn't mean we have to continue to have war, we can learn not to war, But with the human race there is always someone who comes along, and has to be put down, But as a species we are getting better.
Again thanks for the responses, and Peace!
Problem Child
titleless
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2001
- Posts
- 27,935
This is a little late..
...but I was listening to it today...thought it fit
BROTHERS IN ARMS -dire straits
These mist covered mountains
Are a home now for me
But my home is the lowlands
And always will be
Some day you'll return to
Your valleys and your farms
And you'll no longer burn
To be brothers in arm
Through these fields of destruction
Baptism of fire
I've watched all your suffering
As the battles raged higher
And though they did hurt me so bad
In the fear and alarm
You did not desert me
My brothers in arms
There's so many different worlds
So many different suns
And we have just one world
But we live in different ones
Now the sun's gone to hell
And the moon's riding high
Let me bid you farewell
Every man has to die
But it's written in the starlight
And every line on your palm
We're fools to make war
On our brothers in arms
...but I was listening to it today...thought it fit
BROTHERS IN ARMS -dire straits
These mist covered mountains
Are a home now for me
But my home is the lowlands
And always will be
Some day you'll return to
Your valleys and your farms
And you'll no longer burn
To be brothers in arm
Through these fields of destruction
Baptism of fire
I've watched all your suffering
As the battles raged higher
And though they did hurt me so bad
In the fear and alarm
You did not desert me
My brothers in arms
There's so many different worlds
So many different suns
And we have just one world
But we live in different ones
Now the sun's gone to hell
And the moon's riding high
Let me bid you farewell
Every man has to die
But it's written in the starlight
And every line on your palm
We're fools to make war
On our brothers in arms
G
Guest
Guest
EBW said:
Talk is cheap, especially for someone born 5 years after the end of the Vietnam war. Maybe you would have resisted if given the choice, but who knows because you have spent your life far away from the cutting edge of the sword of freedom. For you to line up to spit on a returning Vietnam vets might play well in your narrow view of the world, but it really rubs the shit out of us who live outside of your pc history book.
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