Memorial Day

[Weevil]

you're absolutely right dude.

If more of the general public had been smarter and protested earlier and more vigorously, the war would've ended sooner.

So whose fault is that? The Politicians, for lying to us? Our parents for instilling the WWII John Wayne war is Glorious mentality of the time?

Blame whoever you want, but don't put down the guys who went and did what they thought was the right thing.

There has to be a balance between defending your freedom and knowing when it's right to go and when it's right to say no, we won't go.

We should be alert for situations that are no win, or not worth fighting for, but if everyone just says "hell no, I'm not gonna go die "for my government" then what happens when a situation comes up that really is worth fighting for?

Its everyones fault. Its the fault of everyone who supported the war. Its the fault of everyone who called the protestors Smelly Hippies. Its the fault of everyone who ragged on Clinton for not serving. And like it or not it is the fault, to a degree, of every man drafted who didn't tell the government to stick their draft notice up their ass.That they thought they were right is almost pointless.

Also it isn't a question of saying "I won't fight for my government." its saying "I won't fight for no reason other than my government saying so."

 

[Problem Child]

So, you're saying every one of the 1,000,000 + guys that went to Viet Nam were all wrong, and should have known better. The fact that they were drafted or truly believed what they were doing was going to help the South Vietnamese people has no bearing on the matter.

Must be hard to breathe way up in the stratosphere where you live.

 

[Laurel]

I see. So you're not really getting involved in a political thread. This means I don't need to smack you, correct?

Bingo!

I'm not knowledgeable enough to discuss this topic. I'm a pacifist, but I'm not naive enough to think that conflict isn't an integral part of society. What's "right" conflict versus "wrong" conflict is where I get lost. It all looks silly to me.

 

[Weevil]

EBW

Do you realize that one of the great faults of Vietnam was the fallout after McCarthyism. Due to the McCarthy era, all of our Asian experts had been politically assassinated. We were counting on European experts to direct the war in Vietnam.

Plus you have to understand the communist hysteria going on at the time. People truly were buying into the domino effect.

I agree that some things that happened during Vietnam were wrong. But to blame all vets because of that, is terrible.

Lav, I simply can't poo-poo it away by saying that it was an easy choice. It wasn't. Joan Baez's husband(Whose name I don't remember) did not have an easy choice. He chose to find out why the government was asking him to kill and said no, despite all of the stuff you mentioned. It was unpopular, Illegal and probably didn't make him friends.

The fact that lots of people were wrong doesn't make them less wrong.

Lastly, the Vietnam War was horrible. For both sides. The people who didn't try to end it don't get points now. Its just the way I feel. I can drop it though.

 

[lavender]

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[Weird Harold]

Please let the subject drop!

Lavender, Problem Child, and any others who have an opinion please let this thread drop. There is another thread reminding everyone that Memorial Day is coming up this Monday, and this acrimony does a dis-service to the spirit of remembering EVERYONE, civilian or Military.

Honoring the memory of the dead does NOT imply or require approval of the reasons they died.

PS to EBW: Monday May 28, 2001 is the day to remember the victims of My Lai, along with every other victim of atrocity, government mismanagement, or aggression.

 

[Weevil]

So, you're saying every one of the 1,000,000 + guys that went to Viet Nam were all wrong, and should have known better. The fact that they were drafted or truly believed what they were doing was going to help the South Vietnamese people has no bearing on the matter.

Must be hard to breathe way up in the stratosphere where you live.

Yes, I am. No, not really. The fact that they thought they were right, to me, is like finding out the motive of a criminal. It might be note worthy or interesting or even give you insights into why they did what they did but it sure as hell can't give them a free pass.

The Air is fine up here. Its a shame more people can't see the view.

 

[Weevil]

Re: EBW

But, people in our generation don't understand patriotism like it was then Let's worry about not making the same mistakes in the future rather than chastizing a whole huge group of soldiers for actions of a few.

Read more of my posts Lav. My problem is with the majority of the Soldiers. They went. Sorry.

 

[Weevil]

Re: Please let the subject drop!

Lavender, Problem Child, and any others who have an opinion please let this thread drop. There is another thread reminding everyone that Memorial Day is coming up this Monday, and this acrimony does a dis-service to the spirit of remembering EVERYONE, civilian or Military.

Honoring the memory of the dead does NOT imply or require approval of the reasons they died.

PS to EBW: Monday May 28, 2001 is the day to remember the victims of My Lai, along with every other victim of atrocity, government mismanagement, or aggression.

Oh well, good to know. Nice to see that we can lump millions of peoples death onto one day that most people don't really know about.

I'd be more than willing to let this drop if it wasn't that I'm really distrubed that the attitude of "Its okay if you don't know any better" still lives on.

 

[Purple Haze]

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[lavender]

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[Problem Child]

This really fascinates me.

So, what you are saying is that it makes no difference that the really believed what they were doing is right or wrong.

Killing is wrong, right? That's all you seem to be saying to me, because at the time, how did these guys know how things were going to turn out, especially in the early years? How were they able to see the big picture with the benefit of 30 years hindsight that you and I have now?

To them it was a war that the politicians said was the right thing to do. They said it was winnable, right up until the final days when we bailed out.
I'm really failing to see how you can demonize these guys in the way that you are.

What makes them so much worse than the guys in WWII that you seem to be willing to honor (remember your WWII exception)?

We fought another asian war about ten years before Viet Nam that was almost exactly the same. Northern asian communist-aligned nation against Southern asian capitalist-aligned nation. The north invaded the south and we went to assist them. In both wars we lost about 50,000 men.

Were all those guys wrong and deserving of no respect also?

 

[Weevil]

Re: EBW

Many of the soldiers didn't know what they were getting into when they went over there. The media hid so much. They didn't know half of the shit then that we know now.

We don't know, we weren't there. We're too damned young to be talking about this.

We can say the actions were wrong, but DON'T dishonor the dead.

Are you going to say these things to the mother who lost 3 boys over there? Or how about the women whose husbands wake up every night with cold sweats screaming out because of the nightmares.

You can disagree with what happened, but let's not criminalize their behaviour in this way. The soldiers over there were tortured enough. We do not need to throw this shit in their face again.

Cripes Lav, I hate turning things like this into such a cheezily emotional issue but whatever. There are human sides to everything. Nazis had families, the Khmer Rouge had families and the Serbs had families and it doesn't give them an out of the blame they should take. Anyone who kills doesn't get helped just by saying "It was hard for me too"

You say they didn't have my hindsight which, is true but are you saying that there weren't people who knew? How many soldiers sneered at the long haired kids on Campus, Calling them Commie fuckers and stomping the shit? They could have stopped and listened. They didn't.

I don't initmately know what the moral atmosphere was at any time then my own. I don't think that means I should say, Oops well I suppose that the climate led to it. Its too, whats the word, Removed.

But as to the Mother thing, no. I'm polite. When my friends German grandfather told me how he thought he was doing the right thing by fighting for Hitler I just smiled and nodded. But don't ask me to stand up and cheer.

 

[lavender]

 

[Problem Child]

Re: Please let the subject drop!

Honoring the memory of the dead does NOT imply or require approval of the reasons they died.

Apparently to EBW it does. Apparently the requirement for getting any respect after you DIE serving your country is that you have to be clairevoyant before you go to the induction center and are totally assured that what you are doing is the absolute right thing, no ifs ands or buts.

Apparently some people are gifted with a Godlike ability to know what absolute truth is, and they all fucking fled to Canada in the sixties and early seventies because they were so much more morally superior to the guys who got drafted and went and died face down in the mud.

Of course none of these people were merely cowards.

Actually Harold, I think this discussion is useful because it might get people to actually think about the reasons soldiers go to war and die.

I'd let it drop, but it's an important subject for me. I don't think arguing about it hurts anything. our little argument isn't going to besmirch Memorial day. If anything, it's going to make me think more about it.

[Edited by Problem Child on 05-24-2001 at 11:36 PM]

 

[Weevil]

This really fascinates me.

So, what you are saying is that it makes no difference that the really believed what they were doing is right or wrong.

Killing is wrong, right? That's all you seem to be saying to me, because at the time, how did these guys know how things were going to turn out, especially in the early years? How were they able to see the big picture with the benefit of 30 years hindsight that you and I have now?

To them it was a war that the politicians said was the right thing to do. They said it was winnable, right up until the final days when we bailed out.
I'm really failing to see how you can demonize these guys in the way that you are.

What makes them so much worse than the guys in WWII that you seem to be willing to honor (remember your WWII exception)?

We fought another asian war about ten years before Viet Nam that was almost exactly the same. Northern asian communist-aligned nation against Southern asian capitalist-aligned nation. The north invaded the south and we went to assist them. In both wars we lost about 50,000 men.

Were all those guys wrong and deserving of no respect also?

Everyone thinks they're right. If you asked everyone who ever committed an atrocity whether or not they thought they were right I don't think you'd get many people saying no. The fact that these American boys also thought they were right doesn't hold more weight with me than, say, the Spanish Inquisition really believing they were doing gods work.

How should they have known that they were probably going to have to kill? Gosh, the fact that it was a war would have been my first guess. Try to understand that I don't care who won the war. It shouldn't have happened. It doesn't matter how it turned out.

Try to understand that Demonize might be the wrong word. It isn't so much that I think they should be actively pursued but people should either shut up about it or deal with it. The fact that Bill CLinton didn't kill people in Nam is not a negative. Its what the war is being seen as recently that bothers me so much.

The reason for my WW2 exception is that there was a real good reason for that one and I'm willing to extend the credit of those who fought to stop Hitler to those who didn't know better. I'm not here because there isn't that good reason in the background.

I wouldn't have fought in Korea, no. The reason that I'd give a little more of a break to Korean war vets is that there weren't the riots in the streets. There wasn't a generation of Brave young men and women who had the balls to challenge the centuries old belief that you should kill when they tell you to. They didn't have as easy access to what was right. I'd give some leeway but not much.

 

[Weevil]

But EBW you aren't being polite.

There are many people on this board who probably served in Vietnam. There are many on this board who have been part of the American military.

You're throwing this crap in their faces.

How do you know none of them suffered the loss of a loved one?

Just be careful.

No I suppose I'm not being very polite. Its late though and I'm just venting.

I'm sorry if anyone out there really does get offended by this but parts of the Ol' Catholic in me sometimes comes out. Especially when the talk turns to war.

 

[lavender]

 

[Weevil]

Re: Re: Please let the subject drop!

Apparently to EBW it does. Apparently the requirement for getting any respect after you DIE serving your country is that you have to be clairevoyant before you go to the induction center and are totally assured that what you are doing is the absolute right thing, no ifs ands or buts.

Apparently some people are gifted with a Godlike ability to know what absolute truth is, and they all fucking fled to Canada in the sixties and early seventies because they were so much more morally superior to the guys who got drafted and went and died face down in the mud.

Of course none of these people were merely cowards.


[Edited by Problem Child on 05-24-2001 at 11:36 PM]

Shucks, Why speak when PC does it so elequently for me. You sure summed it up for me there.

I sure would want to know that I was doing the absolute right thing before they asked me to shoot at people. I guess others wouldn't but that would be where we disagree.

And because we get to throw around being offended I would first like to say that not all of those against the war fled. Lots stayed and protested. Lots went to jail. And every single Man who said "I will not fight" showed more spiritual courage than a Boatload of Marines facing heavy fire. Shame on you for calling a group who had the courage to challenge a centuries old belief structure Cowards. It doesn't reflect well on you.

 

[Weevil]

EBW

I'm a pacifist.

It's not that I don't agree with you on some level, you're just making gross generalizations that are a bit offensive.

Fair enough. I don't suppose I am but what the hey. I use anologies to show fallacy. Obviously comparing A to B is never perfect but I don't think you'll find perfect examples.

 

[Problem Child]

Everyone thinks they're right. If you asked everyone who ever committed an atrocity whether or not they thought they were right I don't think you'd get many people saying no. The fact that these American boys also thought they were right doesn't hold more weight with me than, say, the Spanish Inquisition really believing they were doing gods work.

Ok, so what you're saying is that believing you are right or wrong makes no difference. That's a valid argument, but that's not exactly what I was saying. What I meant was that these men believed they were doing the right thing, just as the protesters did. So are they still wrong, for going, and trying to do the right thing? That is the question. you make it sound as if they ALL commited atrocities, they all burned babies. That's not fair.


How should they have known that they were probably going to have to kill? Gosh, the fact that it was a war would have been my first guess. Try to understand that I don't care who won the war. It shouldn't have happened. It doesn't matter how it turned out.

I don't know where you got this. I was asking you if you were judging them merely because they killed, since intent doesn't matter to you. your argument is that if you kill and later the war is deemed unjust, then your motives don't matter. And thus, the dead deserve no respect. Yes, i believe the Germans were wrong in WWII, but I would never say that Gernmans don't deserve to be honored for giving their lives in service of their country.

Try to understand that Demonize might be the wrong word. It isn't so much that I think they should be actively pursued but people should either shut up about it or deal with it. The fact that Bill CLinton didn't kill people in Nam is not a negative. Its what the war is being seen as recently that bothers me so much.

He ran away and some other guy died in his place. Am I supposed to respect him for that?
How is the war being seen recently? I don't know how they see it up there in Canada, but I think most Americans see it as a well-intentioned defense of an ally that we royally screwed up, and should have gotten out of much sooner.

The reason for my WW2 exception is that there was a real good reason for that one and I'm willing to extend the credit of those who fought to stop Hitler to those who didn't know better. I'm not here because there isn't that good reason in the background.

That's my whole point- the reasons for getting involved were essentially the same. It's the same fucking reason we get involved in every war in the twentieth century- to go save somebody elses ass. I don't think the south Vietnamese should be viewed as any less important than the Europeans or any other group. You seem to want to belittle the soldiers of VietNam because the government screwed up the conduct of the war.

I wouldn't have fought in Korea, no. The reason that I'd give a little more of a break to Korean war vets is that there weren't the riots in the streets. There wasn't a generation of Brave young men and women who had the balls to challenge the centuries old belief that you should kill when they tell you to. They didn't have as easy access to what was right. I'd give some leeway but not much.

You give yourself to many points for enlightenment. If it was 1952 you would have been there with an M-1 in your hand just like everyone else.

 

[Weevil]

Maybe I do, PC, Maybe I do.

I'm kind of past this now, however. I can respect your opinion and feelings to pull back.

 

[Problem Child]

Re: Re: Re: Please let the subject drop!

Shucks, Why speak when PC does it so elequently for me. You sure summed it up for me there.

I sure would want to know that I was doing the absolute right thing before they asked me to shoot at people. I guess others wouldn't but that would be where we disagree.

And thusly, if you believed it was the right thing to do, it would be ok? Seems like that's exactly what you have been telling me I'm wrong about all night.

And because we get to throw around being offended I would first like to say that not all of those against the war fled. Lots stayed and protested. Lots went to jail. And every single Man who said "I will not fight" showed more spiritual courage than a Boatload of Marines facing heavy fire. Shame on you for calling a group who had the courage to challenge a centuries old belief structure Cowards. It doesn't reflect well on you.

Oooh, I can just see you shaking your finger at me "Shame on you!" LOL

What I said was that I didn't think that every guy that ran to Canada was the strong-willed courage-of-my-convictions stand up dude you are describing. I think a lot of them were just pussies.

And believe it or not, I do have a great deal of respect for those who protested and got thrown in jail for what they believed in. The exact same amount of respect I have for those who went to a crappy war and did what they thought was right, especially when they had no idea just how shitty a job it was going to be. (Bill Clinton doesn't get my respect on that count because he used the military to advance himself and then renegged on his promise to serve.)

That's the difference between our two positions.
[/QUOTE]

 

[lavender]

 

[Problem Child]

Ok, argument over, it was a good one, I will celebrate, EBW won't, BFD.

Congrats on the larvae EBW, as I said on the other thread.

BTW, if I find out you made this baby thing up just to get out of our argument, you are in way big trouble.

Lavender, can I lick you in all your tender places now?