Memorial Day

[Dreamweaver72]

As the day fast approaches, Please take the time to remember the vet's from tha past, and what they did for our respective countries.
To my generation...The Veitnam conflict, unpopular as it was, they answered the call and did their duty, I have a few friends remembered on the Wall in Washington, A needless fight as history has proven, But at the time it seemed right.
To my parents generation...Now being remembered as "The Greatest Generation". As I was growing up, and thru the 60's it sounded corny, that they saved the world, but as we grew older, the lesson was learned, They did save the world, and didn't brag about it. They treated it as a job, that had to be done, and went on with their lives. It is now coming to light what they did and how they felt. But as the stories come to light, it is amazing what these men & women did. My father told me what he did and where he was in the war, finally.....amazing,
To my Grandparents generation, so few left now, The fought in the First big one, My Granfar told me of his doing in the big one, But I was sure it was embellished, until I read the record, more amazement...
And for the rest, remember them also, They answerd the call, did the duty, what is what makes the world for what it is today.
It shouldn't be just a US holiday, it should be for all as they fought for what they thought what was right. And then pray for no more.....

 

[Derya]

Well said and thank you for saying it. It is important to never forget and to always be thankful. I hope if I ever had to face the challenges that so many have faced in the past that I could measure up. All who have served our country will be in my thoughts and prayers this weekend and always!!
http://megsplace.com/dolls/hatnature.gif

 

[Weevil]

As the day fast approaches, Please take the time to remember the vet's from tha past, and what they did for our respective countries.
To my generation...The Veitnam conflict, unpopular as it was, they answered the call and did their duty, I have a few friends remembered on the Wall in Washington, A needless fight as history has proven, But at the time it seemed right.
To my parents generation...Now being remembered as "The Greatest Generation". As I was growing up, and thru the 60's it sounded corny, that they saved the world, but as we grew older, the lesson was learned, They did save the world, and didn't brag about it. They treated it as a job, that had to be done, and went on with their lives. It is now coming to light what they did and how they felt. But as the stories come to light, it is amazing what these men & women did. My father told me what he did and where he was in the war, finally.....amazing,
To my Grandparents generation, so few left now, The fought in the First big one, My Granfar told me of his doing in the big one, But I was sure it was embellished, until I read the record, more amazement...
And for the rest, remember them also, They answerd the call, did the duty, what is what makes the world for what it is today.
It shouldn't be just a US holiday, it should be for all as they fought for what they thought what was right. And then pray for no more.....

Well, Let me be the unpopular one then.

First. Memorial day should probably just be a US Holiday. It honors US veterans. On Veterans day I honor Canadian vets. That typically is how Vets day goes.

Secondly, I have a big problem with certain aspects of Veterans day. I don't have to honor the people who served in Vietnam, so I don't really have to take issue with that but its similar to why I have such a problem with honoring the few remaining WW1 vets. Why?? I don't think there is anything particularly honorable about going overseas and killing other men simply because your country tells you to. The real heroes(In my mind) are the men who say "No. I don't want to kill anyone. I don't want to get shot at. Unless you can prove to me that I'm making the world a better place than I will say good day to you sir"

The men who went to jail(Or, to a lesser extent) the young men who fled to Canada during the Vietnam war for saying "I don't have anything against the Vietcong, I don't want to die for something I have no connection to" are the ones with real courage. They're the ones who looked past the orthodoxy of the reigning paradigm and said "Fuck it"

This doesn't really apply to WW2

 

[Weird Harold]

First. Memorial day should probably just be a US Holiday. It honors US veterans. On Veterans day I honor Canadian vets. That typically is how Vets day goes.

The US observes both Memorial Day -- to honor and remember everyone who has passed on, both civilian and military --and Veteran's Day -- to specifically Honor those who died in service to their country.

I'll make not comment on your feelings about Vietnam Vets, because I discussed all that in real time during the war -- It's old news.

 

[Weevil]

The US observes both Memorial Day -- to honor and remember everyone who has passed on, both civilian and military --and Veteran's Day -- to specifically Honor those who died in service to their country.

I'll make not comment on your feelings about Vietnam Vets, because I discussed all that in real time during the war -- It's old news.

Sure. I simply said that there's no real reason for me to celebrate the people who passed on in service to the US.

Its old news and not old news. While the moral debate about the war is best left to the past, the people who take heat for draft dodging or the people who want me to salute Will Calley bring it up.

 

[Problem Child]

Actually what you did was insult every serviceman who died in the service of their country, whether they wanted to be there or not.

If you don't want to celebrate Memorial day, then don't celebrate it.

Just don't fucking denigrate people who felt enough about something to give their lives for it, no matter what the war. The "except for WWII" disclaimer is bullshit.

Are the lives of WWII vets more important than anyone elses?

 

[Weevil]

Actually what you did was insult every serviceman who died in the service of their country, whether they wanted to be there or not.

If you don't want to celebrate Memorial day, then don't celebrate it.

Just don't fucking denigrate people who felt enough about something to give their lives for it, no matter what the war. The "except for WWII" disclaimer is bullshit.

Are the lives of WWII vets more important than anyone elses?

Well, once again I don't think Canada celebrates Memorial day but I could be mistaken.

And PC, I'm sorry but we just may have to disagree on this one. I don't care how strongly a serviceman felt about his country if he napalmed women and children. I don't particularly care about people who contribute to the senseless policy the world has of sending the young men of the world to die simply to advance the drink carts of the generals. Maybe Human life is so inconsequential to you that you can celebrate anyone who will take it simply out of patriotism but I can't.

Oh, I forgot one thing. Are the lives of the people who fought in WW2 more important? Nope. But my opinion is that what they did was more of more value than what the Nazi soldiers did. They had reason and purpose. The Nazi soldiers were "Following orders"

[Edited by EvilBollWeevil on 05-24-2001 at 10:25 PM]

 

[Problem Child]

Well, once again I don't think Canada celebrates Memorial day but I could be mistaken.

And PC, I'm sorry but we just may have to disagree on this one. I don't care how strongly a serviceman felt about his country if he napalmed women and children. I don't particularly care about people who contribute to the senseless policy the world has of sending the young men of the world to die simply to advance the drink carts of the generals. Maybe Human life is so inconsequential to you that you can celebrate anyone who will take it simply out of patriotism but I can't.

Whatever. You don't know fuckall about my level of appreciation for human life, so don't try to guess at it.

Just because my country got wrapped up in a crappy little war in asia doesn't mean that the men who went there were intent on napalming women and children. A lot of shitty things happened...that doesn't mean that we should insult those who went and believed they were doing the right thing. They didn't have control over the way the government conducted the war. They just went because they had to.

Were the guys who flew the bombers and burned little German and Japanese kids more honorable than the ones that burned little Vietnamese kids with napalm? Neither of them really had a choice, albeit for different reasons.

Was guy B that went to Viet Nam to replace draft dodger A les important? Or was he just stupid for going.

It's not about the war or the politics, it's about giving a little respect to the few that go and give their lives, no matter how the goverment fucks things up.

 

[lavender]

.

 

[Weevil]

whatever. You don't know fuckall about my level of appreciation for human life, so don't try to guess at it.

Just because my country got wrapped up in a crappy little war in asia doesn't mean that the men who went there were intent on napalming women and children. A lot of shitty things happened...that doesn't mean that we should insult those who went and believed they were doing the right thing. They didn't have control over the way the government conducted the war. They just went becuase they had to.

Were the guys who flew the bombers and burned little German and Japanese kids more honorable than the ones that burned little Viet Namese kids with napalm? neither of them really had a choice, albeit for different reasons.

Was guy B that went to Viet Nam to replace draft dodger A les important? Or was he just stupid for going.

It's not about the war or the politics, it's about giving a little respect to the few that go and give their lives, no matter how the goverment fucks things up.

Fuck that PC. The way you seperate the Man from the actions is reprehensible to me. The government gave these kids the guns, They pulled the triggers. No choice? Ask the people who rotted in jail for saying that they wouldn't be killers at the governments whim and fancy. They sure as hell did have control over their own actions in the war. They should have known better. German troops in WW2 should have known better. The men that were ordered by Calley to massacre civilians should have said NO.

Believed they were doing the right thing?? IN what fucked up world is that justification for the atrocities commited. I hope Khmer Rouge soldiers can't use that defense.

You're somewhat right. It isn't about the War or Politics. It is very much about what I should be honoring. These men who died for nothing or the crimes committed by the ones who came home.

Simple and plain, My government tells me to shoot someone they better tell me why. If you don't ask why and just shoot you have no right to side yourself with honorable men who fought for actual freedoms.

 

[Problem Child]

thank you darlin'.


EBW, you're my bud, and I don't want to get in a pissing contest over this.

I just think like Lavy said, you need to separate the soldier from the war.

I'm out.

 

[Weevil]

Re: EBW

You're wrong. Ya know, I normally agree with you.

Just because you disagreed with Vietnam doesn't mean we shouldn't honor the men who served our country there. I will honor any serviceman of this country. My God, after what they went through in Vietnam, to show them such little respect.

Shame on you.

You can disagree with me all you like but where is the day honoring the 96 at Mei Lei? Its not a question of disagreeing with the war but disagreeing with the actions of the Soldiers. Not the war. The killing for nothing. I steadfastly refuse to honor anyone who will kill someone just because their Government tells them to.

 

[lavender]

.

 

[Weevil]

thank you darlin'.


EBW, you're my bud, and I don't want to get in a pissing contest over this.

I just think like Lavy said, you need to separate the soldier from the war.

Hey I love you too bud

But if more men had been as Brave as (to use a pissy celebrity example when there are better, unsung ones, doesn't thrill me) Muhammed Ali then there wouldn't have been a war. I am looking at the soldiers. They should have known better.

 

[Problem Child]

Back in.

Why do you think I'm talkiing about the Calleys and the Nazis of the world?

I'm not.

I never said separate the man from his actions- those are your words not mine.

I said it's not right to condemn every man that ever went to war. I'm not talking about the war criminals for Christ's sake.

 

[lavender]

 

[Laurel]

But if more men had been as Brave as (to use a pissy celebrity example when there are better, unsung ones, doesn't thrill me) Muhammed Ali then there wouldn't have been a war.

[Wyclef]
(Come on)
Root to the fruit
More bass than Bootsy Collins
You verses me
Thats like Ali verses Foreman (a-ha)
God's act, stand back and watch
Devil's time out
Can't be timed with no swatch watch
Who I am, the black Abraham
Zunga zunga zang, yellow man, Vietnam
Add an extra bar as I spar with literature
Taking kingdoms from tsars
Winning more wars than the Moors

[Forte]
Hey, what's the deal?
I seen the Devil spar with Allah
Mathematics was the key to set my whole race free
You might debate we, a refugee
No harm hurt me
Dying, thirsty from the struggle
To my own hustle bubble
On the low, woe is me
To show the Free Bob right
The righteous Asiatic thinker
While Satan rob light
Civilised like the Molly
Burgundy, wildy rocking
Seen the fifth when Ali clocked him
John Forte will keep you locked in


[Q-Tip]
People all around
You got to recognise and witness
The Mister who swift enough to knock you out with Mic fitness
Hands blistered from holding the mics tight
Some say it's fright night
Well throw the R after the F 'Cause I'm gonna take away your breath
The bell rings and now it's just a daily operation
Yo, you saw my lubrication
You can see this occupation (The winner)
Eh, you know we're from Q-Borough
L-Booie and Clef the trainers, Prazwell promote the throw

[Lauryn Hill]
We used to bite bullets with the pig-skin casing
Now we perfect slang like a gang of street masons (uh)
Scribe check make connects
True pyramid architects (yeah)
Replace the last name with the X (X)
The man's got a God complex
But take the text and change the picture
Watch Muhammad play the messenger like Holy Muslim scriptures
Take orders from only God
Only war when it's Jihad
See Ali appears in Zaire to reconnect 400 years
But we the people dark but equal give love to such things
To the man who made the fam' remember when we were kings

Blocks on fire (Block's on fire tonight)
Fiends getting higher (uh-huh)
Robbing blue collar
(Hey yo we rob them blue collars)
Killing for a dollar (Stick 'em up)
Youths get tired (Ali ah yeah)
We're dealing with them liars (Ali ah yeah)
(We're dealing with too many liars)
From Brooklyn to Zaire (uh-huh ah yeah)
We need a ghetto Messiah (ah yeah come on)

Send me an angel in the morning, baby
Send me an angel in the morning, darling
Send me Muhammad in the morning, baby
Send me an angel in the morning, darling

[Ali Shaheed Muhammad]
Once the pen hits the pad it's danger
To this I be no stranger
Step inside the ring and I'll derange you (Come on)
I'm hearing no comments
Everyone looks dispondent
Dejected, rejected similiar to Liston
Catching lists
Beat it, sonny
My man is still the greatest in this
To hell with Frazier yappin' about that negative shit
Now listen, you can try and escape if you want to
But ask yourself, who the hell you gonna run to
Like Sade Abu you got a punch that I can sleep to
Fugees, Tribe, Busta Rhymes forever coming through

[Prazwell]
We sing Amazing Grace over two dollar plate
One roll snake eyes like Jake The Snake
Many lies put up for stakes
Wash our sins at the Great Lakes
You and I cannot see eye to eye
So therefore we cannot relate
I'm here when I make myself crystal clear
You fled to Cape Fear when I laced you in Zaire
Tussle with a lasso in the Royal Rumble
Seperate boys from men in the concrete jungle

[Busta Rhymes]
I remember when Cassius Clay flipped the script
Taking trips to Zimbabwe
Africans started calling the God Ali Bumbaye (so bwoy)
It be the God stricken, God nutrition, lightly stricken (ha)
Blow that make you feel like you was poison bitten
Ha yo I'm 'bout to blister you and your sister
Predicting every ass whipping before my fights my nigga
This be your last warning once you walk past the doorman
Ali and Foreman gonna lock ass until the morning
Marvellous finances provided by Joseph Mobutu
Special guests of honour like the Archbishop Desmond Tutu
We watched the Rumble In The Jungle
To see who be the targeted uncle to be the first to fall and fumble
Nuff blows they gettong thrown, like solid milestones
Internally shaking up niggas, imbalance your chromosones
With the force of a thousnad warriors
When I bust your ass identify me as the lord victorious

Blocks on fire (You're a star)
(Blocks on fire)
Fiends getting higher (You're a star)
Robbing blue collar (You're a star)
(Yeah rob them blue collars)
Killing for a dollar (You're a star)
Youths get tired (You're a star)
(Youths getting tired)
We're dealing with them liars (You're a star)
(We're dealing with too many liars)
From Brooklyn to Zaire (You're a star)
We need a ghetto Messiah

 

[Weevil]

Re: EBW

We shouldn't even be participating in this conversation. First, we're too young. We weren't alive at the time. We can't understand the climate. We can't put ourselves in the soldier's positions.

Second, you have to realize there are many people on this board who served America in Vietnam. Try to show a bit more courteosy. There's no telling how much horror they have dealt with their whole lives because of that war. To discredit them now, bad bad call.

I disagree with Vietnam. I think we shouldn't have been there. But it was the American government that fucked up. Not the individual soldiers.

1) I suppose. I like to criticize lots of people from the past though.

2) I'd really, really like to show respect if I had it. I'm sorry but I can't celebrate it. I just can't. I have much more respect for the men who went to jail. Sorry. Jail isn't a peachy place either but they were doing the right thing. We can agree to disagree on this I suppose.

3) No, No, and triple fucking no. You don't excuse the actions of a man because of what his country told him was right and what to do. I can't live with Nazi war criminals, I can't live with the Mass murderers in Serbia and I will not accept the argument of blaming the Country. These were men who made the wrong choice, to listen to their government when the should have known better. Millions of people died this century because Men didn't stand up to their government. The ones who did are Heroes.

 

[Weevil]

I'm confused, was Laurel agreeing with me or not?

 

[Problem Child]

you're absolutely right dude.

If more of the general public had been smarter and protested earlier and more vigorously, the war would've ended sooner.

So whose fault is that? The Politicians, for lying to us? Our parents for instilling the WWII John Wayne war is Glorious mentality of the time?

Blame whoever you want, but don't put down the guys who went and did what they thought was the right thing.

There has to be a balance between defending your freedom and knowing when it's right to go and when it's right to say no, we won't go.

We should be alert for situations that are no win, or not worth fighting for, but if everyone just says "hell no, I'm not gonna go die "for my government" then what happens when a situation comes up that really is worth fighting for?

 

[lavender]

 

[Weevil]

Back in.

Why do you think I'm talkiing about the Calleys and the Nazis of the world?

I'm not.

I never said separate the man from his actions- those are your words not mine.

I said it's not right to condemn every man that ever went to war. I'm not talking about the war criminals for Christ's sake.

Yes and no. You are using better examples but you still seem to be saying that I shouldn't have a bone to pick for criticizing American troops for even going to Vietnam. The killing of Civilians is one thing, the killing of the Vietcong I'm not all that crazy about.

There was a right choice. They didn't make it. They don't get off the hook by saying that they had to choose what they did.

 

[Laurel]

I'm confused, was Laurel agreeing with me or not?

Oh, I just like that song. Love the Fugees. Ali's sort of an idol of mine. I ended up taking Kung Fu because of him. Wanted to box, but didn't want to get hit in the head.

 

[Pyper]

I'm confused, was Laurel agreeing with me or not?

Oh, I just like that song. Love the Fugees. Ali's sort of an idol of mine. I ended up taking Kung Fu because of him. Wanted to box, but didn't want to get hit in the head.

I see. So you're not really getting involved in a political thread. This means I don't need to smack you, correct?

*hand poised in slapping position just in case*

 

[lavender]