Measuring limits

[lark sparrow]

How do you know when to push a submissive's limits further?

(From either the Dominant or submissive perspective of course.)

 

[MissTaken]

*chuckles*

I was just going to start a thread, "When is too much just enough?"

And essentially wondered how a Dom/me pushes limits and how a submissive reacts to that?


I imagine our reactions are varied.

 

[bunny bondage]

well, personally, i love to have my limits pushed constantly - but only a little!

 

[Pleasurekitten]

This thread is so timely .......i am questioning the very same things myself. i will be more than interested to read others opinions on this, then i might come back and post of my own concerns.

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

The first thought that came to my mind upon reading this was "when it becomes normal, or humdrum." A specific scene came to mind. We went out to eat one evening and i was wearing a short sleeved shirt with my restraints on (your standard wide leather restraints, with a D ring, buckled on) and it didn't even faze me. I remember some people staring at one point in the restaurant, and i noticed it, and just went back to eating. I didn't feel humiliated, or embarrassed. It was just how i went out when i was with Him.

That particular tool no longer worked, it had become normal. I'm sure that Sir will come up with something to push those limits even further.

~anelize

 

[zanna]

i like having my limits pushed, mental and physical. i can not say i am always successful in coping with the push, though. lol i think that is the only answer i am capable of tonight.

zanna

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

How do you know when to push a submissive's limits further?

(From either the Dominant or submissive perspective of course.)

I know it is time...whenI get bored and need more excitement.

 

[zipman]

Re: Re: Measuring limits

I know it is time...whenI get bored and need more excitement.

I agree, but I would add that I also do it when I notice her getting to comfortable.


I love the look of either fear or trust as I push a limit.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Re: Re: Re: Measuring limits

I agree, but I would add that I also do it when I notice her getting to comfortable.


I love the look of either fear or trust as I push a limit.

Hmmm..it is an extention of when you are in a scene, and you can tell that your sub is too comfortable, and a change in sensation or activity is required...

 

[T.J. Jackson]

Pushing limits is a tough one. It's hard to know when exactly the right time would be to push further. But I like the answer about when things become "normal". I have a certain idea of what I want. A vision perhaps you could say. It's not something that can be reached overnight. It is something that has to be pushed in baby steps. What is harder for me is knowing HOW to push. Sometimes it should be gentle and guiding, but other times the issue has to be forced. I'll usually start out gentle and when that proves fruitless move on to other methods. There is only so far a person can be guided gently.

 

[lark sparrow]

The velvet glove/iron fist method

Sometimes (but not always) to push limits She will use the method of making me very aroused, and then planting the suggestion of what She wants from me. The suggestion could be any activity which She intends to engage in, "You want (activity that pushes limits), don't you?". If I don't answer quick enough and with enough enthusiasm, She will tell me that wasn't good enough, or She's not convinced, and continue to use known methods of arousing me. Then when She's upped the level of arousal She will tell me to beg for it... it will continue like that until I am so aroused and needy and wanting to please Her that I would beg for just about anything She wishes me to, and convincingly... Her wishes become mine. my pain tolerance is usually way up at that point, my surrender is in place, and it feels so good to be begging for what She wants and receiving it. This sounds like it could go on for hours but in reality it usually doesn't take long at all for me to "realize" just how badly I really do want whatever She wants lol.

There is of course still room for errors in judgement or pushing "too far" but if the Dominant knows the submissive well and their limits, it seems a good way to receive consent without interrupting the power exchange. Rather than the evil torturer who takes the consent through bad pain and threats, in this the consent is seduced through pleasure and melted into a desire to please. Rather than "Yes, I'll do anything - just stop!", it's "Yes, I'll do anything - please don't stop!".

Oh, and within the framework of the question - She knows when to push my limits by Her own desires (within my hard limits, which happen to be Hers too) and my response to Her desires, which can be played with, pushed and generally turned upside down. I know She does like to challenge me at times, and I do like to be called to those challenges. And it's an interesting head trip to go from uhm, I don't think I really want that... to yes, please! I also agree with some of the other posters that sometimes the clue to push limits is when things get to feeling a bit too normal and routine for one or both partners. But, there are some things (activities) which I would not ask for on my own or perhaps ever put on the 'I love this activity list' that She will come back to again and again, and I suppose it's the tension and surrender that really draws us both back in.

 

[justme1059]

I am just in the learning and curious stage right now. I am currently looking but not found the right person yet.

I have been curious myself to know if once you go past a certain point,will you ever be able to return to that point without it being "normal" as you say, or maybe even boring?

I know everyone d/s relationship is different and unique.Also would love to know how a dom or sub would be able to come to terms if one or the other wants to go further than the other one does.

So this is an excellent question, I cant wait to check back in and see what others write about it.

Thanks
Justme

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

I am just in the learning and curious stage right now. I am currently looking but not found the right person yet.

I have been curious myself to know if once you go past a certain point,will you ever be able to return to that point without it being "normal" as you say, or maybe even boring?

I know everyone d/s relationship is different and unique.Also would love to know how a dom or sub would be able to come to terms if one or the other wants to go further than the other one does.

So this is an excellent question, I cant wait to check back in and see what others write about it.

Thanks
Justme

Hi justme, we actually had a thread going on this very subject around here somewhere...what happens when one needs more, and more, and yet again more....i'll see if i can't track it down for you

~anelize

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

Hi justme, we actually had a thread going on this very subject around here somewhere...what happens when one needs more, and more, and yet again more....i'll see if i can't track it down for you

~anelize

BINGO!!

It was a thread begun by slvjenn...So submissives is it like this for you



~anelize, "having fun digging through the stacks"

 

[justme1059]

Thank you very much. I cant wait to check it out.

Just me

 

[Netzach]

Normalcy and regularity don't bore me. There are things I'll gladly do any day of the week, just like a slice of pizza always sounds pretty good unless I'm sick to my stomach.

I don't mind a sense of comfort and equilibrium. D/s is very simple to me. I say do it, he does it. That can be as rote or as challenging as it may be, it doesn't have to be difficult. It doesn't have to be scary, new and untested. I disagree strongly with the idea that it's only submission if it's sucky for you. Read or see "The Remains of the Day."
There are some people for whom service just *is* a mindset.

It doesn't have to push anyone's buttons. When it does push buttons and present a challenge, my methods are very similar to lark s's Mistress' methods. Usually a strong suggestion while applying the most softly persuasive kind of touches to a tied-off erection has marvelously positive effect. It's much more incriminating to remind someone that they were very eager to do something just last night, why not right now?

In truth, the process of persuasion can take a long time, a lot of seduction, a lot of patience. I'm much more satisfied when someone suddenly wants to do that thing they didn't want to do than when I know I can *make* them do that thing they didn't want to do (so what?)

How do I know when to start making it happen? It's one of the few things that's really intuitive for me. I plant seeds, I have faith in the outcome, I don't demand because that's a sure-fire way to get resistance when M is scared.

 

[Pure]

Hi Anelize,

you said, about the timing of pushing a limit, introducing something new,

That particular tool no longer worked, it had become normal. I'm sure that Sir will come up with something to push those limits even further.

I think this point is not made often enough. Routine detracts from submission. It's known humans can accustom themselves to the weirdest and direst of circumstances; at which point they're not being bent to another's will, but doing the ho-hum routine.

 

[MissTaken]

I think this point is not made often enough. Routine detracts from submission. It's known humans can accustom themselves to the weirdest and direst of circumstances; at which point they're not being bent to another's will, but doing the ho-hum routine.

To a point, I agree.

However, Pure, if something has become routine for the submissive, but the Dominant continues to take pleasure from that routine, submission is still evident. Especially as submissives, or this one, enjoy being taken further each time, not just doing the same thing over and again.

Routine activities are very much a part of submission in some contexts, but we can save that for another thread

As for pushing limits, a Dominant who knows me well, can recognize the signs that I am ready for more. He will use whatever tools are necessary to get me there, a soft, nurturing and confident voice will generally do it.

 

[Pure]

Netzach said

I don't mind a sense of comfort and equilibrium. D/s is very simple to me. I say do it, he does it. That can be as rote or as challenging as it may be, it doesn't have to be difficult. It doesn't have to be scary, new and untested. I disagree strongly with the idea that it's only submission if it's sucky for you. Read or see "The Remains of the Day."
There are some people for whom service just *is* a mindset.

This brings up a basic issue not aired here very much. In original, actual slavery situations, sometimes a 'slave mentality' arose, and there would be blind, unquestioning obedience. Even in a small dose, such 'service-oriented' thinking might be the support of routine practice. Clearly a slave society is not all the time boiling with restiveness and rebellion. It's been held that the mark of really effective oppression is that overt resort to violence is very infrequent: One will rarely need to brandish a gun or even a flogger to a properly inculcated and intimidated slave.

I have no qualms about saying that this is real slavery, but I'd call it a static conception. (One proof that it's 'real' is when there is an incident or rebellion, and the slaves are killed.) It doesn't look at the process of enslavement. Acting in this static conception are the DS folks who aim to create a pliant, unthinking server who just does as s/he's told. (See the IE website.)

Different from--or maybe complementing--this, there is a dynamic concept that i haven't heard much except from PsyiB. or Rosco. Domination is really dominating, i.e., a process of bending another to one's will. Unlike the slave society mentioned, it's no plus for something to become unthinkingly done by the 'sub' imbued with the ideal of service. One wants his or her protests as part of the scene.

The dom/me of 'static' preference is happy to run into one with
'service mindset' perhaps inculcated from birth at a religious school. A pre-fabricated compliant server. (Like a butler who's father and grandfather served the same family.) The more dynamic preference is a bit as one sees in the play 'The Taming of the Shrew', the dominating is a process which is such because of the resistance; that's the fun part.

It's another topic whether any long term intimate relation can contain such dynamism, such continuous deepening in this or any other manner. Routine so often sets in. A shrink I once knew compared relationships to apples, or hollow balls, that float in the water: with continuous effort one may force it below the surface, but when this is stopped--often through laziness, the thing (relationship) bobs up to the surface (=drifts into superficiality).

 

[lark sparrow]

<snip>Different from--or maybe complementing--this, there is a dynamic concept that i haven't heard much except from PsyiB. or Rosco. Domination is really dominating, i.e., a process of bending another to one's will. Unlike the slave society mentioned, it's no plus for something to become unthinkingly done by the 'sub' imbued with the ideal of service. One wants his or her protests as part of the scene.

The dom/me of 'static' preference is happy to run into one with
'service mindset' perhaps inculcated from birth at a religious school. A pre-fabricated compliant server. (Like a butler who's father and grandfather served the same family.) The more dynamic preference is a bit as one sees in the play 'The Taming of the Shrew', the dominating is a process which is such because of the resistance; that's the fun part.

It's another topic whether any long term intimate relation can contain such dynamism, such continuous deepening in this or any other manner. Routine so often sets in. A shrink I once knew compared relationships to apples, or hollow balls, that float in the water: with continuous effort one may force it below the surface, but when this is stopped--often through laziness, the thing (relationship) bobs up to the surface (=drifts into superficiality).

I see what you are getting at, but again it doesn't seem it would work for a long-term relationship wherein it is a primary and love (defined however one wants) relationship, but only in terms of activities.

It seems a bit like deciding you want to own a dog that can run like the wind, but rather than getting a greyhound, you choose an english bulldog because it's more of a challenge. Great - you have a lifelong challenge (until you get bored by frustration or the dog turns on you) because a bulldog with short legs and snout, squat body and relatively little chase instinct will never, ever be a greyhound. Why not get a greyhound who has the capability and desire to run like the wind and train it as you wish?

 

[DiannaVesta]

I agree that a strong suggestion might be implied. This is certainly one way.

Through the years I have vacillated between my own spiritual intuition and what gets developed in the scene, based on other people’s experiences. I think that information is good and for some invaluable. After all, when we start to develop sexually, no one hands us a manual of sexual alternatives. Today (thank Goddess!) we have books, groups and forums to share experiences.

Today I must strictly go by instinct. It works best for me. I do this on all level, not just BDSM. It’s extremely rare for me to play with a stranger. I need to know that person; what they are thinking, their fears, desires, fantasies, concerns, etc. The relationship builds very slowly as I explore their entire being. This is part of the joy I feel in being a Top.

When I was a prodom, the scenes were negotiated ahead of time. I provided a service to my client who knew what direction he/she/they wanted to go. After a few sessions they may begin to relinquish control and allow me the chance to expand limits and enhance their nature. There were times when I pushed, sensing it was the right thing and it wasn’t…at least not at that moment. You begin to push deep buttons and for many it’s a scary thing…even for the Top. You really don’t know what will turn up. I’ve had clients stomp out of my dungeon and then send me hateful letters of violation. A few months or even a few years go by; they contact me begging me to take them down that very same road. It seems that once the door was opened, no matter how scary, they needed or wanted to walk through it. I believe this is how fetishes are born. Perhaps unconscious at first.

Expanding limits is hot but you damn sure better be ready for it. Not as much the physical but the mental/emotional shit. An example is a woman I was seeing. I handcuffed her bent over before spanking her. She was ok at first. My bare hand smacked her ass and I began to fondle her, teasing her – touching between her thighs, breast, etc. My hand was stinging so I decided to put a leather glove on. That’s when she flipped out. She began crying uncontrollably and shaking. After releasing her I held her for over an hour.

The combination of the glove and the scene itself, which was really pretty tame, set off a deep memory for her. Weeks later she came to me and asked me to do it again. I was reluctant at first but after talking with her I decided that maybe it was a good thing. We did that scene a few times over a few weeks and it became really hot for her.

It’s a fact that many people dabble in the scene that have had control, power or abuse issues. As much as we try to generalize I know, based on experience that this is true. Enacting a painful situation and turning the tables, so to speak, gives you a chance to “own” that pain instead of it owning you. I don’t feel or advocate that any Top accept this responsibly or push limits without knowing exactly what to do. It’s an individual’s choice and in my heart I feel a holistic one. At the same time there are people who continue to re-live painful experiences allowing it to interrupt and inhibit every area of their life. It’s like they become stuck there almost mourning their pain. Is this healthy? No, it’s not but it’s their choice to continue or do something about it, if they can. The person, who understands their pain and make a sane choice to penetrate it, is another thing. I think this is where a Top must carefully evaluate the reasons why a bottom wants to take that journey.

Patrick Califia says in article:
http://www.othersex.com/portal/inc.php?p=050103/top1.htm
TOP SPACE- THE INNER LANDSCAPE OF THE SADIST
“”The sexual Muggles who constitute the majority might see a submissive or a masochist as an object of pity, but such a person is rarely feared or hated. It is the one who locks the shackles or picks up the whip who is seen as a representative of the anarchic and violent instincts that civilization cannot afford to countenance. Crudely put, this means that bottoms are seen as candidates for psychiatric treatment, but tops are the business of the policeman. Of course, neither stereotype is accurate, and incarceration in a mental institution is not a great deal more pleasant than a stint in prison. But in this country, we study the mentally ill; criminals are punished. They are beneath contempt; they don’t even warrant our curiosity. And on the continuum of stigma, a dominant gets off more lightly than a sadist.””


In a sea of misunderstandings and why too many myths, the choices become individual and they are always based on the relationship dynamic. Pushing limits is a delicate matter no matter how hot it is. Even a surge of excitement from a strong suggestion is a place to thread lightly.

Dianna Vesta

 

[Pure]

Hi Lark S.

On the subject of 'slave/sub by nature', you said,


It seems a bit like deciding you want to own a dog that can run like the wind, but rather than getting a greyhound, you choose an english bulldog because it's more of a challenge. Great - you have a lifelong challenge (until you get bored by frustration or the dog turns on you) because a bulldog with short legs and snout, squat body and relatively little chase instinct will never, ever be a greyhound. Why not get a greyhound who has the capability and desire to run like the wind and train it as you wish?

Well, you picked a very static example: I want a dog that runs fast. So, yes I go get one, and I'm happy. It's an acquisition, not anything to do with the exertion of will.

I give you two other examples:

As a would be parent, I want a child of about ten who will grow up with a measure of steadiness and devotion--keep a bond with me among other things, and be worthy, herself. Should I choose a) A sweet, very placid kid without much 'motivation'; usually content to 'go with the tide' and peers, whom I'm sure will stick around. or b) A bright, rather highstrung kid who'll maybe develop 'issues' with me, who'll perhaps be what they call 'temperamental', but who's likely to really develop some talents in art and dance.

More apposite to the power issue. If I like a struggle and to dominate; i.e, to dominate against someone's will. I'm choosing a routine partner for chess games. Should I pick A) a somewhat conventional player whom I have a definite edge on and will win against, handily, 2/3 of the time; or B) A gifted skilled, tournament involved player-- of local, not national fame-- who'll beat me 90% of the time.

Also, in closing do you like hanging out (cyber or otherwise) with persons who are saying, 'yes, yes Lark Sparrow, you're so smart and so right about everything, you're just what I, of more timid nature, need; I can never figure things out they way you do'?

Best,
Jan

 

[Pure]

Hi Dianna V,

you said,


It’s a fact that many people dabble in the scene that have had control, power or abuse issues. As much as we try to generalize I know, based on experience that this is true. Enacting a painful situation and turning the tables, so to speak, gives you a chance to “own” that pain instead of it owning you. I don’t feel or advocate that any Top accept this responsibly or push limits without knowing exactly what to do. It’s an individual’s choice and in my heart I feel a holistic one. At the same time there are people who continue to re-live painful experiences allowing it to interrupt and inhibit every area of their life. It’s like they become stuck there almost mourning their pain. Is this healthy? No, it’s not but it’s their choice to continue or do something about it, if they can. The person, who understands their pain and make a sane choice to penetrate it, is another thing. I think this is where a Top must carefully evaluate the reasons why a bottom wants to take that journey.

I think your first point is good and not made often enough. Usually we just hear that 'buttons' are not to be pushed; trauma reminders are to be avoided, etc. Yet what Freud called the instinct of mastery is important; to somehow get a handle on the experience.

An interesting, related issue I've heard about is where there is a 'victim' of, say, a rape. Conventional wisdom is to say "It's not your fault, there's nothing youcould have done" and induce the person to believe that. Some therapists, however, are now saying that the 'victim' has a better chance to recover by
accepting some responsibility: The implication of 'there's nothing you could have done' after all, is that, 'out of the blue,' any time, one is vulnerable, and that's not a good place to be.

As to your second point about the issues a dom/me faces with those who, for various reasons may choose to re-live a trauma (with a 'sane choice'), as compared with those who do not, and according to you, may be 'stuck' or in an 'unhealthy situation.'

There is something to what you say. At the same time, I have a little area of opinionation, that a dom/me is not a therapist, that is, needn't be one. The considerations of a therapist are not required, in my view. To use an analogy: If a person is going to risk life and limb, a therapist does well to ask why: Why do you want to 'skydive'?

A skydiving instructor, otoh, while trying screen out crazies, and obviously unstable people who'll 'freak', need not make such an inquiry. He or she says, "You want to learn to skydive, I will teach you, and help you make your first jumps." Some will have quite a tough time, but that's not the instructor's responsibility to be so rigourous.

The dom/me, I'm saying is more like that instructor. To address the original question of when to push: I'm saying it's a paradigm of limited usefulness to propose a bunch of psychotherapeutic issues and criteria for psychotherapy practice.**

There are of course further reasons in any relationship for one party not to be the other's therapist.

Just my aberrant opinions, for what they're worth.

J.

In plain terms, as a counterweight to the therapeutic approach, I answer to

How do you know when to push a submissive's limits further?

The dom/me does so, when s/he--without endangering the person's life or mental health-- feels s/he'll 'get off' on it (increased voluptuous payoff for the domme).

 

[lark sparrow]

Well, you picked a very static example: I want a dog that runs fast. So, yes I go get one, and I'm happy. It's an acquisition, not anything to do with the exertion of will.

Not really, because although all greyhounds will tend to run fast, some have more raw talent, some are easier trained than others, all will have at least slightly differing personalities and temperments, perhaps particular "hang ups" and areas of excell and slowness, and finally your specific training will shape the dog, and each individual will react a bit differently, learn at a varied rate and bond in varying depth. The choice of breed is static, but there are plenty of variables. The greyhound is not a running machine, but a sentient, individual variable.

I give you two other examples:

As a would be parent, I want a child of about ten who will grow up with a measure of steadiness and devotion--keep a bond with me among other things. Should I choose a) A sweet, somewhat developmentally delayed kid whom I'm sure will stick around. or b) A bright, rather highstrung kid who'll maybe develop 'issues' with me, maybe be what they call 'temperamental', but who's likely to really develop some talents in art and dance.

If you're most concerned about the child being steadfast and devoted to you, then A sounds the better choice. I don't see how a talent in art or dance has anything to do with keeping a bond with a parent. How about an "idiot savant"? Special talent and dependence!

More apposite to the power issue. If I like a struggle and to dominate; i.e, to dominate against someone's will. I'm choosing a routine partner for chess games. Should I pick A) a somewhat conventional player whom I have a definite edge on and will win against, handily, 2/3 of the time; or B) A gifted skilled, tournament involved player-- of local, not national fame-- who'll beat me 90% of the time.

If you want to struggle, be humbled, lose alot and perhaps learn, choose B (a more submissive role, in the grasshopper vein, if you will). If you want to dominate against someone's will, definitely choose A. Better yet, play both. How would you consider being beat 90% of the time dominating? Personally, when I play a game it's for fun, so I do it with a partner I like first and foremost - the game and their skill level comes second.

Also, in closing do you like hanging out (cyber or otherwise) with persons who are saying, 'yes, yes Lark Sparrow, you're so smart and so right about everything, you're just what I, of more timid nature, need.'

In simply hanging out, variety is good. In sex, attraction and romance, timid yes people don't do much for me. But, generally speaking if I am good friends with someone they shouldn't consider me dumb and wrong in all things either.

Of course none of these address the issue squarely, but questions answered.

 

[psiberzerker]

It is my humble opinion that limits are maleable. What is unbearable one moment is tame the next if you're brought back up to that point slowly, and steadilly enough. I don't know if this is what everyone is talking about when they refer to "pushing limits", but I'll work with that assumption untill somebody bitches.
I'd like to differentiate between limits, and barriers. The former is a matter of tolerance. This can be increased simply by gradually increasing the sub-limit dosage. A barrier is something that should never be pushed, or violated. To do so is abuse, plain, and simple.