Making babies

[Eilan]

I don't know if any of you have been following this Train Wreck of a thread or not, but I think there's an interesting issue that it brings up.

Is reproduction a right or a privilege or something else altogether?

Discuss.

 

[Guest]

 

[LadyJeanne]

Ok, I'll wade in.

My belief is that making babies is more of a privilege than a right if you're considering the ethics and responsibilities of having children.

But if you're talking about legal rights, then I'd say making babies is one of our inalienable rights as humans. Legislation regarding procreation is inappropriate, IMO.

 

[Guest]

 

[silverwhisper]

i believe that every person has a right to reproduce. oddly enough, in a legal sense, i'm unclear whether there's a right or not, but i do know that in the US you do have a legal right to sex. a friend of mine was sued, a result of a car accident, and one of the factors in the suit was "loss of consort", which is legalese apparently for inability to engage in sex.

now, i don't know that i want there to be a legal right to reproduce, b/c if it's a right, it needs to be protected, which means that the government may have an obligation to protect it and that really gets my libertarian sensibilities in a twist.

but so long as we're talking about this in an extra-legal capacity anyway, yes, i think reproduction is a right.

scalywag's point re: responsibility is a good one, but the problem to me w/ saying that reproduction is a responsibility is that it associates desire for creating stable offspring. this is not necessarily a given, sadly. i think that a person who consciously decides to become a parent does have a responsibility to be certain that he or she is capable of being a good parent, but to me, that isn't quite the same thing.

ed

 

[Guest]

 

[bisexplicit]

Oh wow. I've seen some of doll parts other threads...that girl is not at all ready to have a baby.

As to whether or not breeding is a right...Ugh, thats a tough one. I want to say yes - you have control over your own body. And I don't think it would be correct to have, for example, government interference. There are those who are more right-winged who I am guessing would say things like the government supports irresponsible people after they have children, why can't they have a say whether or not they have children in the first place.

What I think would be the best thing to do would be increased education. In my high school, for example, as part of our "wellness" class there was not any mention of childcare or how difficult it would be to raise a baby. (There also weren't mandatory money managment budgeting classes, which I think there should be as well.)

So, in conclusion, I'm not entirely sure I have a point. Oh well.

 

[silverwhisper]

scalywag: i agree it should be, but let's face it, that isn't always true.

ed

 

[midwestyankee]

I don't know if any of you have been following this Train Wreck of a thread or not, but I think there's an interesting issue that it brings up.

Is reproduction a right or a privilege or something else altogether?

Discuss.

"Train wreck?" Eilan, if I didn't know better I'd say that you must have grown up in New England because I haven't seen such understatement since I left Maine.

Twenty-two years after getting started at "making babies," I think the simplest way to describe it is as a sacred trust. As a parent you are the steward of another's life. You have fiduciary, moral, physical, psychological, and emotional responsibilities that are of greater consequence than anything else you could ever do in life.

As often as it happens, reproduction is still something of a miracle. To treat it as anything less is callous, unthinking, selfish, and grossly immature.

 

[Mary Hall]

It does upset me watching people having kids when they don`t really want to look after them, because i may never be capable of having children. It upsets me how people can just abuse the gift of having children.

 

[Guest]

 

[Guest]

 

[AppleBiter]

Is reproduction a right or a privilege or something else altogether?

Discuss.

I think people should have to qualify for some type of license in order to bring children into this world.

[personal rant] I also think people should stop being revered for having children. Just because you have children doesn't mean you're a good parent. I'm tired of hearing people talk about how great and wonderful they are and how much better they are than other people because they can reproduce. It doesn't take a genius . . . hell, 12-year-olds have done it. It's nothing special. Being a GOOD parent -- now, that's something noteworthy and something that is cause for celebration. Don't expect me to bow down and worship you because you spread your legs or shot your load. Okay, personal rant over now. Explanation: The SO and I have been married 6 years and have no children and run into the above-mentioned people on a daily basis who love to try to make us feel like shit because we've chosen not to reproduce, yet. Bastard-ass motherfuckers. [/personal rant]

 

[Recidiva]

If you look at it as a sentimental viewpoint as a parent, as a responsible parent it's a privilege and you want to make parents get a license.

From a Darwinian standpoint...if you look at a kid that can survive the most difficult circumstances and the most unbelievable neglect...that's a tough kid. You want that to survive and breed for humanity's sake.

Good parenting might be counterproductive? Seeing the fact as I think I'm a good parent and my daughter has turned out to be "Think For Me Barbie" at times. I have a brain, she's decided she can borrow mine whenever it suits her. So who knows?

So really, who are we to decide?

The fact is, it's not up to us, it's up to the gene pool.

 

[Eilan]

Since I started this, I suppose that I should weigh in, but I'll probably have to come back later after I've further collected my thoughts.

I have four children, so I'm obviously not in a position to pass judgment on people who reproduce whether they're "ready" or not. (What defines "readiness," anyway?) My husband, as some of you might know from other threads, was treated for infertility problems before we met. I always took my fertility for granted, but because of his struggles, I know how painful it is for those who are able to provide for children but not able to have them.

I've heard stories (I'm thinking from the '30s) about states who used to do forced sterilizations on a segment of their population that was considered "inferior" in some way, physically or mentally or whatever. There's a part of me that's outraged at that, particularly because a lot of people who were, in fact, "normal" ended up having their reproductive decisions made for them by the government.

However, is there a point in which the state should step in? I'm not sure.

In Ohio a few years back, some dude who owed at least $30K in child support to five different women for the seven children he had with them was ordered by a judge not to reproduce during a certain time frame. Had he not complied with the judge's order, he would have been found in contempt of court and might have faced jail time. Within a year or so of this order being issued, this guy got married, and he and his new wife decided that they'd like to have a baby, but because of the judge's orders they weren't allowed to do so. I'm thinking that the order was overturned, but I never heard whether or not the guy and his wife were successful in their baby-making endeavors.

I also think people should stop being revered for having children.

Are you sure you don't want to bow down and worship my almighty uterus?

 

[TBKahuna123]

I can't even bring myself to post on that thread. I could never bring myself to say someone is crazy for wanting a baby, because I know how my wife and I feel right now. That desire can often override logic, of course it may just be more intense for us becasue of our fertility issues.

There is another side to how our fertility issues affects me, and that's jealousy. When ever I see something like this that gets me angry, I'm always very careful about my where my feelings are coming from. That said, WTF? Forget the SSI, she wants to bring a child into this world because she's lonely? That's NOT a good reason, in fact it's the worst reason I've ever heard! Second only to having a kid to save a rocky marriage!

So do we as americans have a RIGHT to reproduce. Hell, as a Catholic, I'm told half the time that it's my DUTY to reproduce. Sorry, but I think that attitude went out with the great depression. But is it my right?

Well here's what pisses me off, and this does hit on the SSI issue. First, as a hard working, tax paying, upstanding citizenof this country, I can not get help having a child, even though I have insurance. We are still paying out the ass for our UNCOVERED fertility issues. At the same time, women on welfare are actually having kids for the purpose of making more money. This isn't just rhetoric, my folks used to run a govenrment housing agency, and I've seen it happen and had women outright tell me this is what they were doing. We even ahd one lady tell my mom she wanted to get on the waiting list of a larger house and my mom told her she wasn't elligible because they had to go to larger families. A month later this lady came back and said she was pregnant now and needed a larger house. She was smug about the fact that she had gone out and gotten pregnant because she wanted that bigger house, and that it even meant more money from welfare for her. These are the things that piss me off. I can't bring myself to say we should legislate reproductive rights, but there's a point where you just want to say "put the dick down!"

 

[SweetErika]

Essentially, I think it's a right that should always be treated like a privilege. If you can't take care of yourself; aren't mentally, emotionally, or physically mature and stable; don't have the financial resources to provide well for the child; aren't in a solid, healthy relationship; or lack the necessary knowledge, skills, and values to raise a happy, healthy person, you have a responsibility to do everything you can to avoid pregnancy. If, after using several good methods of birth control correctly, a woman who isn't ready to parent well gets pregnant, she should do the right thing and either have an abortion or give the baby up for adoption.

Here parents who are charged with neglect, abuse, etc. are forced to take mandatory parenting classes. I think making EVERYONE who's expecting a child take parenting classes wouldn't be a bad idea.

In Ohio a few years back, some dude who owed at least $30K in child support to five different women for the seven children he had with them was ordered by a judge not to reproduce during a certain time frame. Had he not complied with the judge's order, he would have been found in contempt of court and might have faced jail time. Within a year or so of this order being issued, this guy got married, and he and his new wife decided that they'd like to have a baby, but because of the judge's orders they weren't allowed to do so. I'm thinking that the order was overturned, but I never heard whether or not the guy and his wife were successful in their baby-making endeavors.

Okay, so they got married and wanted a baby, but how the hell was he planning on supporting it while paying a sufficient amount of child support for the seven other kids? In addition, how did he expect to parent all of the kids? They could maybe spend one day a week together, but it's really unfair to keep having kids you know you won't be able to parent. I think in a situation like that, the government SHOULD intervene by issuing and enforcing orders like the judge did.

It's just like anything else...if you drive under the influence or recklessly, you lose the privilege to drive. If you can't take care of your kids, they're taken away. If you're too irresponsible to use birth control and support the people you create, IMO you should lose your privilege to have more kids. After that, if you can rectify the situation and prove you can support the kids comfortably without a problem, you can earn the privilege back.

 

[pleasteasme]

That said, WTF? Forget the SSI, she wants to bring a child into this world because she's lonely? That's NOT a good reason, in fact it's the worst reason I've ever heard! Second only to having a kid to save a rocky marriage!

I had never realized this was an issue until my friend told me that the reason she wanted to go ahead and have a baby was to take the "pressure" off the relationship (that was going down the drain) between her and her husband. I really didn't think people thought that way......boy, was I wrong.

Now, 18 months later.....their marriage is rocky as ever and now they have brought an innocent little one into the equation. Not such a bright plan.

I don't get people and their logic sometimes *shakes head*

 

[Eilan]

Okay, so they got married and wanted a baby, but how the hell was he planning on supporting it while paying a sufficient amount of child support for the seven other kids? In addition, how did he expect to parent all of the kids? They could maybe spend one day a week together, but it's really unfair to keep having kids you know you won't be able to parent. I think in a situation like that, the government SHOULD intervene by issuing and enforcing orders like the judge did.

I'm inclined to agree. I wondered, too, about how he'd ever get current on the support payments. My husband's ex married a guy with four daughters from his previous marriage (and she's currently 35 weeks pregnant). He has a good job, and he still has to work overtime to make ends meet. He was involved in a car wreck and unable to work for a few weeks, and his net pay (sans overtime) was $33. And this is for a guy who's BASE salary is about $40K.

I'd also question the logic of wanting to have a child with someone who's not supporting his other seven children. Yeah, people can change, but. . .

And closer to home. . .

A friend of mine (from my book group) retired a couple of years ago after 30 years of teaching in one of Ohio's poorest counties, which is a county adjacent to ours. I'm not sure how recent this is, but she told of a brother and sister (both adults), who both had IQ's that were well below average, who kept having babies together. The babies were all given over to foster care/adoptive parents, and all but one of them had below average IQ's. After about the 8th child, my friend said that the state stepped in and insisted that one of the other of them be sterilized. They could still live together, and they could still have sex, but they wouldn't be reproducing.

Not sure that there's a point to this.

 

[pleasteasme]

a brother and sister (both adults), who both had IQ's that were well below average, who kept having babies together.

I had to re-read this to make sure I wasn't seeing things.


*ewwwwwwwwwwwwwww*

~All over shiver~ NOT in the good way......

 

[Eilan]

I had never realized this was an issue until my friend told me that the reason she wanted to go ahead and have a baby was to take the "pressure" off the relationship (that was going down the drain) between her and her husband. I really didn't think people thought that way......boy, was I wrong.

That's sad and, I think, more common than some people might think. My ex left when our second child was two months old, and I totally didn't see it coming, but that's probably because I was experiencing PPD at the time. My ex had this idea that I'd somehow "tricked" or "trapped" him into fatherhood, which, to this day, I have a hard time understanding, since he'd seemed happy enough at the time.

I spent some time as a single mom, and I know what it's like to try to raise two children on less than $1500 a month, and that's without government assistance. I was an adjunct college English and math instructor doing full-time work for part-time pay. It was tough, but it makes me truly grateful that I'm now able to stay home with my kids.

 

[pleasteasme]

That's sad and, I think, more common than some people might think. My ex left when our second child was two months old, and I totally didn't see it coming, but that's probably because I was experiencing PPD at the time. My ex had this idea that I'd somehow "tricked" or "trapped" him into fatherhood, which, to this day, I have a hard time understanding, since he'd seemed happy enough at the time.

I spent some time as a single mom, and I know what it's like to try to raise two children on less than $1500 a month, and that's without government assistance. I was an adjunct college English and math instructor doing full-time work for part-time pay. It was tough, but it makes me truly grateful that I'm now able to stay home with my kids.

Yes, it is a rather sad situation. Wow...how on earth do you make ends meet on that type of a budget? I'm sorry to hear that your ex-hubby had that type of view. It sounds like things are going great for you now though! That is wonderful that you can stay home and be a full time mom Definately not something that everyone is able to do.

The interesting point about my friend is that her hubby is all for having another one. She told me she didn't want to, just "in case" they get a divorce, she didn't think she would be able to properly take care of two kids and herself on her salary. I'm not sure if that is healthy thinking or self preservation?

 

[Eilan]

Yes, it is a rather sad situation. Wow...how on earth do you make ends meet on that type of a budget? I'm sorry to hear that your ex-hubby had that type of view. It sounds like things are going great for you now though! That is wonderful that you can stay home and be a full time mom Definately not something that everyone is able to do.

I managed to get all my bills paid. My ex DID contribute, even before he was legally obligated to do so, which helped a little. In hindsight, I wonder how I ever made it, but I did. Before my husband retired, he was making more than that in a two-week pay period.

The interesting point about my friend is that her hubby is all for having another one. She told me she didn't want to, just "in case" they get a divorce, she didn't think she would be able to properly take care of two kids and herself on her salary. I'm not sure if that is healthy thinking or self preservation?

I think your friend's being realistic. Obviously her husband's not thinking that he'll have to support these children if they divorce. Assuming, of course, that she'd get custody.

 

[TBKahuna123]

If, after using several good methods of birth control correctly, a woman who isn't ready to parent well gets pregnant, she should do the right thing and either have an abortion or give the baby up for adoption.

If I don't chime in, I won't be able to sleep tonight. So here's your warning, controversial ideas ahead.

I have a hard time with abortion as birth control, even if other methods have failed. I do believe that you assume that risk and if you still wind up pregnant, you need to accept that responsibility. Now, I don't mean that you have to have and raise that child, but I don't think that gives you the right to kill that child, and I think adoption is the answer. That is where my views on abortion come from. I believe that abortion is murder, and as such, should be illegal. Of course I believe in exemptions for health of the mother, etc., but I still believe it's murder. Because of that, I am a rare pro life liberal.

Now, I do admit I am totally biased here for many reasons. You have hundreds of thousands of couples with infertility issues who are waiting years to adopt babies. My own fertility struggles do make my feelings more intense.

I'm sorry for throwing this in here, but I couldn't hold back. This whole thing just struck a chord and I had to speak my peace. I'll shut up now and we can keep picking on this poor delluded young woman who needs a hug way more than she needs a baby,

 

[brw02]

that was pretty insightful. i understand your position and i respect you for it. however, i have been told that there are not many couples interested in a child from a minority (black, oriental, et. al). If we could overcome racism, the problem would be less controversial. Abortion as a means of birth control is not OK with me. It is an irresonsible act by the mother-to-be. We need to do better.