Lying

[SweetErika]

The subject of lying came up in a conversation with a friend recently. It seems we had different definitions and ideas on what constituted lying vs. showing/emphasizing a different side of your personality.

How do you define lying? What meaning do you associate with the phrase 'chronic liar'? If you're getting to know someone, what kinds of things would make you feel deceived? If you're willing to confess...what types of lies (excluding white and childhood) have you told or been told? Any other thoughts or questions on this topic are welcome.

 

[BBWetKitty]

The subject of lying came up in a conversation with a friend recently. It seems we had different definitions and ideas on what constituted lying vs. showing/emphasizing a different side of your personality.

How do you define lying? What meaning do you associate with the phrase 'chronic liar'? If you're getting to know someone, what kinds of things would make you feel deceived? If you're willing to confess...what types of lies (excluding white and childhood) have you told or been told? Any other thoughts or questions on this topic are welcome.

Normally I start out on my back, then my right side, then my left, by the time I wake up Im sprawled out..... oh, the OTHER kind of lying..


Well. The last lie I was told was by a guy that I met, we fooled around, he left his number, said call me, and when I tried, I found his number was bogus. The bastard.

 

[TropicalThundR]

I think lying is a direct attempt at decieving someone.

 

[TropicalThundR]

Sorry more to add

Plus, if someone asks you a question that is none of their business or something you don't want to answer I think people should say that they don't want to answer it instead of lying about it.

 

[Bobmi357]

The subject of lying came up in a conversation with a friend recently. It seems we had different definitions and ideas on what constituted lying vs. showing/emphasizing a different side of your personality.

How do you define lying? What meaning do you associate with the phrase 'chronic liar'? If you're getting to know someone, what kinds of things would make you feel deceived? If you're willing to confess...what types of lies (excluding white and childhood) have you told or been told? Any other thoughts or questions on this topic are welcome.

Lying is a form of deception. And as such it comes in all shapes and sizes.

There is the simple denial of responsibility, such as the four year old that protests she didn't do it, despite the wall covered in crayon and her being the only person in that room for the last two hours. Or the more complex denial as evidensed by Richard Nixon denying complicity in the watergate break-in.

Another form of lying are the so called "white" lies. These are lies in which one party is either trying to protect themselves or someone they care about. Ie "Ummm yes dear, that new hair cut is really great on you!" or "Nope, that dress doesn't make you look fat!". In both cases the party doing the lying is trying to protect the other party from being hurt. Its noble reason for lying, but its still lying and in the long run its liable to get you into trouble.

Another form of lying includes telling the truth, either in whole or in part, but doing it so unconvincingly that no one believes you. This is probably the least common form of lying, but one in which our government has used to its benefit for many years now.

Another type of lie is the lie of omission. Meaning that you tell only the part of the story that has you looking good and omit the part that leaves you looking like a silly idiot. This is probably one of the most common lies seen today, especially in court.

My mother calls my ex-wife a chronic liar. She's always coming up with improbable scenarios to explain why she suddenly needs their help. I learned the hard way about her lying, it might not have been chronic as in on a daily basis, but she apparently felt that lying was far easier than telling the truth to anyone.

In terms of what kind of lie one should be hurt by, I think you need to examine the intent behind the lie. For example a husband lying about a one night stand that happened one time is a lie trying to protect himself and his wife. If he truly stays on the straight and narrow afterwards, then one can assume the lie was meant to prevent hurting his wife or their relationship and he probably feels plenty of guilt over it anyway.

On the other hand, lying to conceal an affair, is a deception motivated by selfish reasons. The cheating spouse isn't lying to protect the other spouse. The spouse is lying to continue the affair.

A lie started with forethought and malice is probably the worst kind of lie. Its meant to influence other people and hurt one or more people. One example of this sort of behavior would be starting a rumor campaign against a rival in politics.

As stated above I think I would want to understand the motivation behind the lie before knowing if I should take offense.

As to what lies have I been told? Well if I were to include my ex in the scenario there wouldn't be enough space here to list them all. But suffice to say she had me hoodwinked from the day we met til the day we wed as to her sexuality and her ability for affection.

Suffice to say I went through all the usual childhood stages of lying, "No mom, I didn't take a bite out of the cake you just made. Yes mom I know we're the only two people in the house, no mom I don't know who took the bite out of the cake" etc...

As an adult I figured lying would be extremely unwise professionally and its an attitude I've kept to. Other than the white lies to protect the feelings of my spouse I seriously doubt I would lie as an adult. This isn't to say I haven't dreamt up some superlative and pausible whoppers in the recesses of my mind (and usually well after the fact).

Lying in a relationship is always risky (and I don't mean the white lies). Its one of the greatest and most common dangers of net relationships. How many times have we heard about relationships that started online and went down in flames because one party wasn't truthful to the other party?

 

[Noor]

I have a big problem with lies, especially needless ones. When I discover someone has lied to me, like saying they are going somewhere and then I find out they didn't, it makes me wonder what if anything they said was true.
I would rather hear the "painful" truth or even omission than an outright lie. Truth is something you can choose to accept or not, lies even "well meaning ones" are deception and undermines the foundation of your trust and believe in relationship.
I think lies often hurt the person who tells them too. When good, decent people lie I often wonder how they can live with themselves after lying to and hurting people they care about, it must damage them as well.

 

[Noor]

This may be a bit off topic but lately I have been wondering how you regain trust in someone you have found has lied to you. How you stop from feeling the hurt of having your trust abused everytime you think of them? How you find out what, if anything else, was true in the relationship?

 

[Eilan]

Bob, the first part of your post encompasses some of what I was going to bring up. Back when I was teaching Freshman Comp. one of the textbooks we used had a really good example of a classification essay. I think it was called "The Ways We Lie" or something like that (I'll have to see if I can't dig it up now because I'm curious). The author believed that everyone lies, and she used a very broad interpretation of the dictionary definition of the word "lie" to prove her thesis. Basically, according to her, ANYTHING intended to hide or deceive fell one of several categories of lies.

The essay sparked some interesting discussion in my classes. As an in-class assignment, I asked the students to describe a time that they lied, why they did it, etc. I had a handful of students say that they had NEVER told a lie *cough*liar*cough* but most students mentioned white lies. One student even confessed to knowing that a friend's spouse was having an affair and lying to that person about it!

My first marriage finally ended because of a lie my ex told me in order to "be rid of me." We had some problems that intensified after our second child was born; he left me for someone else when the baby was two months old. After some half-hearted attempts at reconciliation, during which he continued to see this other person, I gave him an ultimatum. He told me a lie, which I won't detail here, except to say that I found out many months later that what he said wasn't true.

The biggest lie I've ever told? I'm reluctant to describe it specifically, but I will say that if I hadn't lied that it would have prevented my divorce from being finalized on the day it was supposed to be and would have screwed my ex (and several other people, myself included) over in the process. At that point I just wanted it to be over so we could move on.

Noor, you asked about regaining trust. I wasn't able to regain that trust in my ex. Even if we would've gotten back together, I would have wondered if he was REALLY working late when he said he was. I'm not generally a jealous person, but he'd already established his untrustworthiness. And until things went terribly wrong in the relationship, he wasn't in the habit of lying. But once he started doing it, it seemed to get easier for him.

 

[SweetErika]

Bob, I apologize for cutting your excellent post apart, but there's too much that has sparked specific questions and ideas... Everyone's more than welcome to jump in on the thoughts and questions below.

Lying is a form of deception. And as such it comes in all shapes and sizes.

Another form of lying are the so called "white" lies. These are lies in which one party is either trying to protect themselves or someone they care about. Ie "Ummm yes dear, that new hair cut is really great on you!" or "Nope, that dress doesn't make you look fat!". In both cases the party doing the lying is trying to protect the other party from being hurt. Its noble reason for lying, but its still lying and in the long run its liable to get you into trouble.

I know white lies can get you into trouble, but I can't help but wonder what the world would be like if there were no lies. Would we be better off? What would the impact on our relationships be?

Another type of lie is the lie of omission. Meaning that you tell only the part of the story that has you looking good and omit the part that leaves you looking like a silly idiot. This is probably one of the most common lies seen today, especially in court.

At what point does excluding details become lying by omission? I think some would argue that choosing the pic(s) that represent you in the most positive light (and not showing the rest) is lying by omission. Or, is emphasizing certain facets of your personality to portray yourself a different way (e.g. to be Lit relevant, acting more sexual and playful than you are in your daily life to fit the nature of the forums) lying?

My mother calls my ex-wife a chronic liar. She's always coming up with improbable scenarios to explain why she suddenly needs their help. I learned the hard way about her lying, it might not have been chronic as in on a daily basis, but she apparently felt that lying was far easier than telling the truth to anyone.

Yes, I'd agree with your mother that a chronic liar lies purposely on a regular basis, and I generally think of someone like your ex when I hear the term...more specifically, someone who's lies for their own gain frequently. The problem comes when people have broader or narrower definitions of lying. Most people tell white lies and lie by omission regularly, so does that mean most people are "chronic liars"? I think some would argue it does, or that we're all chronic liars.

As stated above I think I would want to understand the motivation behind the lie before knowing if I should take offense.

As an adult I figured lying would be extremely unwise professionally and its an attitude I've kept to. Other than the white lies to protect the feelings of my spouse I seriously doubt I would lie as an adult. This isn't to say I haven't dreamt up some superlative and pausible whoppers in the recesses of my mind (and usually well after the fact).

Lying in a relationship is always risky (and I don't mean the white lies). Its one of the greatest and most common dangers of net relationships. How many times have we heard about relationships that started online and went down in flames because one party wasn't truthful to the other party?

I couldn't agree more, Bob.

Another question: Especially online, do you assume nearly everyone is lying/telling half-truths? Or do you generally take people at their word unless they've given you reason to not do so?

 

[SweetErika]

This may be a bit off topic but lately I have been wondering how you regain trust in someone you have found has lied to you. How you stop from feeling the hurt of having your trust abused everytime you think of them? How you find out what, if anything else, was true in the relationship?

That's an excellent question, Noor, thanks for posing it!

For me personally, I think a lot depends on the lie(s) told and the intent behind them. If it's a big one like cheating, I'd look at the reasons behind it and their willingness and ability to regain my trust. At some point, I'd have to decide whether the relationship was worth it, and if I'd be able to forgive. If I said 'yes' to both questions, I'd start fresh and work with them to rebuild trust, but with my eyes wide open. Certain words and actions have the ring of truth, and I think you can connect those to what was said and done before the lies were told, and rebuild the relationship on that.

 

[LadyJeanne]

I'll step forward and say I used to be a HUGE liar, mostly by omission, and limited to my parents during college when they were still trying to control my behavior in what I considered to be an overprotective, unrealistic way.

I would tell them I went to a party, but I wouldn't tell them there was any drinking or that I had stayed out til 5am. I would tell them that I had been in the library when they called, but I never told them I was there til 2am when it closed and walked two blocks to my dorm alone. I would tell them I had started seeing someone, but I never told them I was having sex and denied it if mom asked (I think they figured that part out when my boyfriend and I got engaged and moved in together).

Why? Because I knew they would eat themselves alive with worry if they knew what I was doing, and I wanted to avoid big arguments that wouldn't resolve anything. Eventually, I grew up enough to tell them they had had their chance to raise me "properly" and they just had to let me live my life and make my own mistakes. But that took years.

The one thing all that lying by omission did for me was to help me recognize when other people did it. It's a useful skill to have, both in a personal and business context.

 

[Bobmi357]

I know white lies can get you into trouble, but I can't help but wonder what the world would be like if there were no lies. Would we be better off? What would the impact on our relationships be?

I think our world would be much more confrontational. If you did away with the "white" lie, you'd end up with people saying things like "No dear, I can't remember when I saw a more hideous hairdo on a woman, it reminds me of something out of the bride of frankenstein, but not as classy". A spouce tend to resort to white lies in order to maintain a harmonious home life. For some strange reason you girls obsess over silly things like your wieght or your hair and its a brave man that decides to be 100% truthful. I remember the last time Alyx got her hair permed. I hated it and I told her so. (Sorry Hun!) I had seen mops looking more attractive than that hair style. I know she wanted an honest opinion, but I also saw that my opinion hurt her. Its not something I intend to repeat anytime soon.

At what point does excluding details become lying by omission? I think some would argue that choosing the pic(s) that represent you in the most positive light (and not showing the rest) is lying by omission. Or, is emphasizing certain facets of your personality to portray yourself a different way (e.g. to be Lit relevant, acting more sexual and playful than you are in your daily life to fit the nature of the forums) lying?

When I mentioned lies of omission I had something different in mind. Let me give you an example. A crime has been committed, one man is dead and two others are under arrest for the murder. At their interrogation one individual claims he was just the driver and had no clue that the other guy was planning on killing the third guy. He's telling the truth, but omitting the parts where he observed and even egged on his partner.

You see, it all boils down to intent. If you are picking photos of your self to share with an online flame and you pick the photos that show you in the best possible light, but never show that defect which turned your left arm into a flower pot, then you're intending to decieve. Picking a photo which you feel shows off your best aspects isn't really lying, deliberately trying to hide something is.

In regard to behavior this is probably one of the most cruel things one person can do to another. When a person flirts, acts more sexual and playful and then fails to deliver they have decieved in a really cruel way. When my ex and I were dating, we didn't have much in the way of premarital sex, but she alluded to things she wanted me to do and wanted done, she talked up a great story that kept me securely on her hook. I quickly learned after I said I do, that what she said before and what she did were two different things entirelys. Her I do, became I don't.

Deception at this level is so fundamental it can break relationships. Sure we're all here on a sex board and of course nearly everything goes, but I really suspect that people here aren't quite as hedonistic as they claim to be. For one thing society tends to look down on that sort of behavior so you have to be circumspect about it, for another most of us are products of our upbringing and unless you've been raised on some remote south pacific island with a bunch of left over free love hippies from the 60's, you've got all of societies anti-sex mechanisms built into your psyche.

Yes, I'd agree with your mother that a chronic liar lies purposely on a regular basis, and I generally think of someone like your ex when I hear the term...more specifically, someone who's lies for their own gain frequently. The problem comes when people have broader or narrower definitions of lying. Most people tell white lies and lie by omission regularly, so does that mean most people are "chronic liars"? I think some would argue it does, or that we're all chronic liars.

I recall a show on pbs where they charted the progress of young children (as early as 2 yrs old) and they found that 2 yr olds were capable of lying. It seems to be a defense mechanism built into us. Yeah we wanted and ate that piece of cake, but now that mom's mad at us, we have to say something to avoid being punished!!

You said it yourself Erika, a chronic liar lies on a routine basis for no purpose other than furthering their own goals.

Another question: Especially online, do you assume nearly everyone is lying/telling half-truths? Or do you generally take people at their word unless they've given you reason to not do so?

I assume people are generally telling the truth with a little flair thrown in. People, all of us, lead pretty mundane lives and if a little flair can make us seem more interesting and more exciting, fine. The only time a problem comes into this is when that person is actively seeking a relationship. Because then, those lies, become visible as the relationship progresses.

 

[SweetErika]

I'll step forward and say I used to be a HUGE liar, mostly by omission, and limited to my parents during college when they were still trying to control my behavior in what I considered to be an overprotective, unrealistic way.

I would tell them I went to a party, but I wouldn't tell them there was any drinking or that I had stayed out til 5am. I would tell them that I had been in the library when they called, but I never told them I was there til 2am when it closed and walked two blocks to my dorm alone. I would tell them I had started seeing someone, but I never told them I was having sex and denied it if mom asked (I think they figured that part out when my boyfriend and I got engaged and moved in together).

Why? Because I knew they would eat themselves alive with worry if they knew what I was doing, and I wanted to avoid big arguments that wouldn't resolve anything. Eventually, I grew up enough to tell them they had had their chance to raise me "properly" and they just had to let me live my life and make my own mistakes. But that took years.

The one thing all that lying by omission did for me was to help me recognize when other people did it. It's a useful skill to have, both in a personal and business context.

LOL I did the same sort of thing. "I'm spending the night with Heather" was true, but we usually spent the night together at a party doing all sorts of things that would have given my mom a heart attack. When questioned, I could usually lie my way out of it, though I did get caught once or twice. Now my mom laments how she should have been there more and paid better attention, but the reality is that I was only into three things: smoking cigarettes, drinking (but never dangerously or driving), and having sex (on the pill, with condoms). I maintain she did a pretty good job, and even in hindsight, I have trouble feeling bad about the lying because I learned so much about myself and others during that time, which has ultimately made me a more responsible adult.

 

[LadyJeanne]

LOL I did the same sort of thing. "I'm spending the night with Heather" was true, but we usually spent the night together at a party doing all sorts of things that would have given my mom a heart attack. When questioned, I could usually lie my way out of it, though I did get caught once or twice. Now my mom laments how she should have been there more and paid better attention, but the reality is that I was only into three things: smoking cigarettes, drinking (but never dangerously or driving), and having sex (on the pill, with condoms). I maintain she did a pretty good job, and even in hindsight, I have trouble feeling bad about the lying because I learned so much about myself and others during that time, which has ultimately made me a more responsible adult.

I don't regret it on the whole, either. I think it saved us all a lot of useless heartache. The one thing I regret about it is that I couldn't really talk with them about what was going on in my life. That made my mom feel left out, and made me feel like I was missing out on some love and comforting (you study at the library that late - wow, you're working really hard) when I needed it.

 

[Vancouverite]

Wow, an interesting topic to explore!
I can sort of see differences between chronic liar, inveterate liar and pathological liar and many other shades of meaning and connotation, but that's more because of my training and love of language and its nuances.
Personally I have a low definition of lying and therefore a high tolerability threshold. I see little difference between lying by commission and ommission. Whether its being 'colourful' or just leaving out the unattractive bits its still lying - the telling on an untruth, or the disguising of a truth.
Maybe I should have gone into advertising.
In fact, as a lawyer, there are strict canons about lying and you soon get to know the lawyers you can't trust to deal evenly and fairly with you. So work is one place where I don't lie.
Do I lie when I come to Lit and display a sexual side of my nature that wouldn't normally be out there to see? Of course I do. Its not the 'real me' just a facet of me, and to the extent its a facet it gets over-emphasised and blown out of proportion. Speaking of blowing out of proportion I have, at least, never lied about my body, but I don't tell if not asked. Would a person on Lit want to meet me in real life? Maybe, but they wouldn't meet the person they have seen posting on Lit, that's for damn sure. Its different when you talk about getting to know someone through IM as then its a conversation, but the loss of the visual clues that primates need makes it hard to tell how much is tongue in cheek or a half truth. We have all misread someone's tone here and had to backtrack, it shows how difficult it can be.

I would only be offended and feel deceived by a deliberate lie, told with the intention of misleading me in something important. I don't care if someone online says they are blonde and really they are brunette (women with bleached hair do that every day). And, I suppose, therefore, that few lies online will really matter to me because I am not going to meet most people and actually find out. In that sense I suppose its 'harmless'. If I am going to hell I have already been assigned my ticke for worse things than lying.

OTOH that makes the few 'friends' I have cultivated all the more precious to me. If I feel I am being open and honest then I'd want to believe that the other person is too.

Hmm, a conundrum.

I will have to think about it a bit more.

 

[SweetErika]

Wow, an interesting topic to explore!
I can sort of see differences between chronic liar, inveterate liar and pathological liar and many other shades of meaning and connotation, but that's more because of my training and love of language and its nuances.
Personally I have a low definition of lying and therefore a high tolerability threshold. I see little difference between lying by commission and ommission. Whether its being 'colourful' or just leaving out the unattractive bits its still lying - the telling on an untruth, or the disguising of a truth.
Maybe I should have gone into advertising.
In fact, as a lawyer, there are strict canons about lying and you soon get to know the lawyers you can't trust to deal evenly and fairly with you. So work is one place where I don't lie.
Do I lie when I come to Lit and display a sexual side of my nature that wouldn't normally be out there to see? Of course I do. Its not the 'real me' just a facet of me, and to the extent its a facet it gets over-emphasised and blown out of proportion. Speaking of blowing out of proportion I have, at least, never lied about my body, but I don't tell if not asked. Would a person on Lit want to meet me in real life? Maybe, but they wouldn't meet the person they have seen posting on Lit, that's for damn sure. Its different when you talk about getting to know someone through IM as then its a conversation, but the loss of the visual clues that primates need makes it hard to tell how much is tongue in cheek or a half truth. We have all misread someone's tone here and had to backtrack, it shows how difficult it can be.

I would only be offended and feel deceived by a deliberate lie, told with the intention of misleading me in something important. I don't care if someone online says they are blonde and really they are brunette (women with bleached hair do that every day). And, I suppose, therefore, that few lies online will really matter to me because I am not going to meet most people and actually find out. In that sense I suppose its 'harmless'. If I am going to hell I have already been assigned my ticke for worse things than lying.

OTOH that makes the few 'friends' I have cultivated all the more precious to me. If I feel I am being open and honest then I'd want to believe that the other person is too.

Hmm, a conundrum.

I will have to think about it a bit more.

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with everything you've laid out here, but you certainly make good points, Vancouverite.

General questions...
Where's your lying threshold? What would you consider "important" enough not to lie about?

If you're certain a person you're speaking to isn't going to find proof of what you say, what keeps you from lying when asked about something specific?

I'm also curious to hear whether people think the Internet is a safer place to lie or to be honest in general? I can see it as both, depending on the situation, but I usually see it as somewhere I'm safe to be myself.

 

[Vancouverite]

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with everything you've laid out here, but you certainly make good points, Vancouverite.

General questions...
Where's your lying threshold? What would you consider "important" enough not to lie about?

If you're certain a person you're speaking to isn't going to find proof of what you say, what keeps you from lying when asked about something specific?

I'm also curious to hear whether people think the Internet is a safer place to lie or to be honest in general? I can see it as both, depending on the situation, but I usually see it as somewhere I'm safe to be myself.

My threshold on what is important? On the internet my threshold probably starts at extreme (but just this side of 'the sky is pink' and 'my mother was a hamster' - which are funny/silly in the right circumstances) and with a sliding scale of toleration the better I think I come to know someone until you reach a point where I would be upset about most matters that I might consider personal, like political or religious opinions, marital status, etc. I am never going to be bothered about 'why weren't you around yesterday?' or 'what did you do at the weekend?' information because it really is just fluff or filler for me. I doubt I'd be particularly hurt about it in real life either unless there was a particular reason or attachment or arrangement that had been screwed up.

What keeps me from lying? Ha! I was brought up not to lie. There are things that I don't lie about and things that I won't lie about to certain people in certain circumstances. I'd like to say that my personal integrity keeps me honest, but I am much more likely to avoid a question that might require a lie as a reply, and you won't know if you asked such a question as I avoid most questions anyway, one way or another. What I do also allow for is the possibility of hurting the other person - if they are likely to be hurt then I won't do it, if they aren't likely to be hurt its not that I will lie for preference but that I am no longer restricted by my care and concern for hurting them.

And to everyone here who has had me tell them the story about my being asked what I did for a living, replying that I am a barrister, and then being asked which starbucks I worked at (a barista, presumably), well it just isn't true, but its one of the things that ought to be true, and I apologise that no-one ever actually stepped up to the plate and said it!