Love & Master/slave and the myriad of issues attached

[MasterPhoenix]

Hi guys, I know I have not been here much of late, but I have been exceedingly busy with my writing jobs. In fact, as I post this I am decompressing after writing two major stories on the Oakland Raiders.

My slave in training and I were reading the book Exit to Eden by Anne Rice, and it got to a part where the Dominant character had inexplicably lost her dominance towards the submissive character. At first, I was annoyed as it seemed like the character had become bullshit, but as it continued it was established that she had become overwhelmed by her feelings towards the submissive. (note: we have not yet finished the book, so please no spoilers)

This actually got me thinking back to a stage in my past relationship where I went through the same thing. In fact, going way back in time, that was likely part of the first cracking that ultimately led to the shattering. Granted, this was but one small early crack in what became a massive lattice work of destruction.

KayKat and I had a long discussion about the differences between love in a Dominant/submissive context as opposed the the traditional notions of love, and how in our case the very acts of Dominance and submission are expressions of love, and our love comes from our bond as Master and slave in training. I am hoping to avoid this pitfall in the future, as there is something really special happening here, and I don't want to fuck it up.

I know that even us Dominants are human and far from perfect, and sometimes emotions can carry us into odd states of mind. I don't expect or demand perfection from myself, as the perfect Dominant only exists in erotica. I have regained a lot of my confidence as a Dominant and found myself yet again, but does anyone have any good suggestions on this love thing?

Thanks, guys.

 

[minx1]

Hi guys, I know I have not been here much of late, but I have been exceedingly busy with my writing jobs. In fact, as I post this I am decompressing after writing two major stories on the Oakland Raiders.

My slave in training and I were reading the book Exit to Eden by Anne Rice, and it got to a part where the Dominant character had inexplicably lost her dominance towards the submissive character. At first, I was annoyed as it seemed like the character had become bullshit, but as it continued it was established that she had become overwhelmed by her feelings towards the submissive. (note: we have not yet finished the book, so please no spoilers)

This actually got me thinking back to a stage in my past relationship where I went through the same thing. In fact, going way back in time, that was likely part of the first cracking that ultimately led to the shattering. Granted, this was but one small early crack in what became a massive lattice work of destruction.

KayKat and I had a long discussion about the differences between love in a Dominant/submissive context as opposed the the traditional notions of love, and how in our case the very acts of Dominance and submission are expressions of love, and our love comes from our bond as Master and slave in training. I am hoping to avoid this pitfall in the future, as there is something really special happening here, and I don't want to fuck it up.

I know that even us Dominants are human and far from perfect, and sometimes emotions can carry us into odd states of mind. I don't expect or demand perfection from myself, as the perfect Dominant only exists in erotica. I have regained a lot of my confidence as a Dominant and found myself yet again, but does anyone have any good suggestions on this love thing?

Thanks, guys.

Hey MP, glad to hear things are going well and you are both happy. Pass my love on to KayKat please

I've highlighted the points I think you want addressing, but can I just clarify? Are you asking how you can stop that happening again or about love between a PYL and pyl in general or have i completely missed the point and something else?!

 

[MasterPhoenix]

Basically looking to get a discussion going on love in the lifestyle, and how its expressed, which can lead to problems..

and on the other, thats a will do.

 

[Bandit58]

Hi guys, I know I have not been here much of late, but I have been exceedingly busy with my writing jobs. In fact, as I post this I am decompressing after writing two major stories on the Oakland Raiders.

My slave in training and I were reading the book Exit to Eden by Anne Rice, and it got to a part where the Dominant character had inexplicably lost her dominance towards the submissive character. At first, I was annoyed as it seemed like the character had become bullshit, but as it continued it was established that she had become overwhelmed by her feelings towards the submissive. (note: we have not yet finished the book, so please no spoilers)

This actually got me thinking back to a stage in my past relationship where I went through the same thing. In fact, going way back in time, that was likely part of the first cracking that ultimately led to the shattering. Granted, this was but one small early crack in what became a massive lattice work of destruction.

KayKat and I had a long discussion about the differences between love in a Dominant/submissive context as opposed the the traditional notions of love, and how in our case the very acts of Dominance and submission are expressions of love, and our love comes from our bond as Master and slave in training. I am hoping to avoid this pitfall in the future, as there is something really special happening here, and I don't want to fuck it up.

I know that even us Dominants are human and far from perfect, and sometimes emotions can carry us into odd states of mind. I don't expect or demand perfection from myself, as the perfect Dominant only exists in erotica. I have regained a lot of my confidence as a Dominant and found myself yet again, but does anyone have any good suggestions on this love thing?

Thanks, guys.

Hi MP
Even though I self-identify as a sub and not a slave, I'd like to add my 2c for what it's worth Sir and I love each other and have done for nearly 5 years now. He is not afraid of hurting me when we play - in fact He knows I need a certain amount of pain and definitely sets out to give it to me, and I know He enjoys the infliction of said pain. So it's all good in that department!

Outside of play, I serve Him in many ways, not least in caring for His health. He makes sure that I know I am loved and appreciated, and looks out for my health and well being by making sure I eat right and get enough sleep especially when my caring role gets stressful as it has done quite a bit over the time we've been together.

I believe that love has enhanced not detracted from our D/s life. We are honest with each other, we trust each other with our lives (literally in His case), and care deeply for one another. I have said before that in our case the relationship comes first, and D/s is the icing on the cake....and it is delicious cake!

 

[catalina_francisco]

My best suggestion is remembering always not only your particular roles (for want of a better word), and why you both wanted this relationship and dynamic in the first place, but also then then remaining honest and true to it at all times, even when it isn't that easy. While it is OK to give concessions in particularly stressful times (ill health, injury, other life issues which involve responsibility to others), I think it is something which needs to be measured strictly and also for both to strive to maintain as much or the normal expectations as is possible throughout that period. I see a lot of M/s relationships where people give and take concessions for the slightest things such as a mild cold, or feeling a bit tired after working a couple of extra hours...IMO, this is often where the rhythm and focus begins to waver for one or all and to some extent leaks into the everyday.

I also think it important that each be able to talk openly about any elements or events in the relationship that are bothering them. By openly I mean being able to mention it and have it discussed without fear of punishment, being thrown back at the other then or at a later date, having it minimised and swept under the carpet, being mocked, or dismissing it totally and instead being dealt with in a way which builds positive growth as opposed to eroding it through bloody mindedness or neglect. This can be a fine line to walk, especially from the PYL position when trying to balance understanding with maintaining a dominant position and dominance, but it is possible and is a time when love can be an asset more so than the popularly and much touted negative it often attracts. Most of all, be mindful to never take each other for granted.

Catalina

 

[kinkyknickers]

I don't know whether I'm grasping the gist of your statement/ question. But my comment is that if a person truely wishes to make a loving relationship work, then consideration is key. There are times when a person's status as either Master or slave may have to take a back seat when serious issues arise.
I identify as a switch and in that way I am bottom-maso to M and Mistress to the_mgp.
Thing is I haven't really felt like tying my girl up lately, or taking any beatings myself because I'm going through a busy time with moving and changing jobs and just recently today a death in the family. So I am a little insular and unable to really focus on things other than what I mentioned above.
If I was being harrassed about it, it would be a serious issue, but M and the_mgp have been understanding, and I know things will eventually find their natural groove again.
Being in love with someone doesn't mean you can't control them. If you need to be involved in the lifestyle to stay interested then just make sure things get back on track quickly if you fall off the rails.
There's no reason why a sub should loose any respect for you because you show them love. It's all about keeping control. If a sub suddenly stops giving you power that was firmly established in the beginning of the relationship, then maybe they weren't really looking for a Master to begin with.
As far as Master/ sub love being different from "normal" love, well, I don't know if there's that much difference unless you'd perhaps prefer a bit of Stockholm Syndrome. It's still a form of love, right?

KK

 

[minx1]

I believe that love has enhanced not detracted from our D/s life. We are honest with each other, we trust each other with our lives (literally in His case), and care deeply for one another. I have said before that in our case the relationship comes first, and D/s is the icing on the cake....and it is delicious cake!

Same here Bandit, in terms of the relationship coming first. It had to else we would have parted long ago I think. Thats why I was asking MP about the refernce to the loss of the feeling of Dominance. We have had times in our relationship where being Master and submissive in the strictest sense of the terms just wasn't working for us for a varirty of reasons.
But we both knew that we didn't want to lose eachother inspite of that. Its a continuous shifting process for us I think and possibly will always be depending on where both of us are in our lives.

We express our love in very different ways. Verbally I am gushing and he is not lol. But we would be the same if our relationship were vanilla. Does it cause problems? Sometimes, because D will tell me he loves me and adores me when he wants to....with the emphasis being on when he wants to *laugh*
It has taken me a little time to get used to that.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I have a few conflicting issues in this department because although Master and I love each other very much and there is no doubt on either side, I have a need to fear him and he has a need to be feared. If I had no fear of him, my respect for him as my Master would be corroded and although people say 'but you love each other and he'd never really hurt you so there can be no real fear.' I do fear him and it's a healthy thing for both of us.

This leads to crossed wires on occasion. Sometimes I fear him needlessly and at other times, I can be taken completely by surprise when something pisses him off unexpectedly. The slave in me loves his unpredictability and capriciousness, it's one of the reasons I gave myself to him. Sometimes though, the woman in me becomes confused and occasionally, she doubts him.

Generally speaking, if I have issues that I need to discuss he'll make time for that and so far everything's been straightened out and resolved with a minimum of fuss. I can see though, how damaging some of these little things could be if left to fester and accumulate. If someone told me to draw the line between the loving Master and the selfish asshole, I'm sure I'd find it a difficult task. I love his inner bastard, just like I love the side of him that will snuggle on the sofa for hours, go on long walks and for romantic meals. I love all of him and I hope that remains the case for time to come.

I guess the key is always communication, desiring to hear the criticisms and the doubts as well as the praise and the compliments. I'm not saying that I would ever sit Master down and criticise him, but he recognises that he has to police himself carefully, because I don't have the authority to do so.

 

[intothewoods]

Wayyy back in time?

I don't get it, but maybe that's because I'm not M/s. You fall in love with a person, not with the Master/slave dynamic in and of itself.

 

[the_mgp]

*************.

 

[the captians wench]

I think Bandit's last line is key here. It all depends on how much emphasis you put on your dynamic.

Surjewls has talked before on how her relationship is strictly M/s. Her mistress loves her and she loves her mistress, but they are not inlove. The focas there is on the dominatence. In this type of relationship I beleive love can weaken the dynamic. It's not fear of hurting the other person suddenly that causes this, it's fear of loosing them. You stop pushing certain issues with them, for fear this person you love so much will leave. Once that fear is there, the submissive gains power and can abuse that power whether consciencely or not.

If how ever you are not looking for a relationship that is more focased on the dynamic than it is the relationship, then I don't think love will be a problem, as long as you both remember your roles and why you have them. By all means, ask her how she feels about this kink, or trying that, take her thoughts into consideration, but don't let the fear of "if I push this will she leave" force you to change your mind.

 

[intothewoods]

I'm actually not saying that it's unreasonable to want a PYL or want to be a PYL who adheres to a set of rules set out in the relationship. All I'm saying is that from where I sit this concern should be dealt with like any other issue in a relationship - communication, reflection, trust, a little trial-and-error, whatever.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Wayyy back in time?

I don't get it, but maybe that's because I'm not M/s. You fall in love with a person, not with the Master/slave dynamic in and of itself.

I think this is true for a lot of people...for others part of why you love that person is because the M/s dynamic is as important to them as it is to you, thus it is part of who they are and the relationship you both seek. Perhaps another way of looking at it is if you fall in love and become part of a vanilla relationship and then one of those in the relationship decide later on that to continue the relationship must become M/s...obviously there are times when this works, just as there are times when no matter how much love existed before, one of those involved does not share an interest or desire for M/s and so the relationship ends out of necessity. Often part of what encourages us to love another is a sharing of goals, interests and relationship dynamics/boundaries.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

Because I have no idea how the fuck this would actually work with someone I have that romantic melt into you you and me against the world kid love with, I don't go there. I love H. I have a special affection for him I can *only* have for a slave, but it's not the type that I'd have for a spouse. It's a requirement that I have this kind of relationship with someone if I were to have what I would like, relationship wise, but it's also a requirement that I have a more romantic kind of relationship I can happily lose myself in emotionally and not be in complete control of. How people ping back and forth between spouse and slave, I have no idea, friend and slave is bad enough.

M is *generally* personality-submissive and sexually submissive, but pushes back just like a pet cat does. He'll definitely bite me if I pet him too long the wrong way.

My lover is a submissive switch, talented and versatile to the point where "please Dominate me" isn't as stupid as it actually sounds on paper. Neither are, or could be, slaves for more than a six second fantasy.

 

[KayKat]

Communication is the big key for us..We communicate on a day to day basis.

This discussion was brought on last night due to what Master said above..He got really aggravated with the Domme character in the book for how she was acting...Then it brought back to him that this had happened to him in a past relationship.

We are both vested in the M/s part of our relationship..we are building on that as we go...

We discussed this ad naseum last night to reassure and know that we will communicate about every aspect of the lifestyle and that we love each other and the love goes along with the M/s part to...We are buidling on that as we go along..

Master knows I crave pain..Knows that yes granted right now I can only do so much to give myself pain but knows I look forward to when he is giving me that pain...

Everyday I serve Master in many different ways as the day goes on..this is something else we talked about last night..I didn't realize just what all I do do

I know I have rambled on here but was just trying to answer you all in one post..

Communication is the key...he and I have had said that from day one.. Trust another big key..because without trust there can not be anything there.

 

[intothewoods]

I think this is true for a lot of people...for others part of why you love that person is because the M/s dynamic is as important to them as it is to you, thus it is part of who they are and the relationship you both seek. Perhaps another way of looking at it is if you fall in love and become part of a vanilla relationship and then one of those in the relationship decide later on that to continue the relationship must become M/s...obviously there are times when this works, just as there are times when no matter how much love existed before, one of those involved does not share an interest or desire for M/s and so the relationship ends out of necessity. Often part of what encourages us to love another is a sharing of goals, interests and relationship dynamics/boundaries.

Catalina

I tried to clarify in my second post. I actually wasn't thinking of the topic of whether to let up on the dynamic at times or not.

The original post reminded me of the way people sometimes refer to the dynamic as something almost separate from the actual people in the relationship. That sort of frame of mind doesn't seem to be sustainable in a long-term primary relationship (which isn't what every one wants, and more power to them, but it seems as though that's what the OP wants). You are not "a slave" to "a Master." You are -- well, to use your names, cat -- catalina, slave to Francisco. I'm itw, a submissive in a relationship with Mister Man, my Dominant.

 

[CutieMouse]

Partners in Power by Rinella might be worth a read for both of you. It leans towards a more Leather perspective, but (if I'm remembering correctly) still has a lot of information/advice on how kink can impact relationships, and relationships can impact kink.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

Partners in Power by Rinella might be worth a read for both of you. It leans towards a more Leather perspective, but (if I'm remembering correctly) still has a lot of information/advice on how kink can impact relationships, and relationships can impact kink.

CUTIE!!!!
*POUNCETACKLECUDDLE{{{{{{{{{{HUG}}}}}}}}}}}}ROLLROLLROLL*


Uhhhh... I've missed you...

 

[desertslave]

Master has often said "D/s is how we love, BDSM is how we make love." I think it's absolutely true, at least the way it works for us. Other's mileage will most certainly vary. For me, love and trust are the foundations upon which my submission is built. I couldn't go as far as we have without the love-aspect to reassure me. Because of our sometimes hectic lives, the D/s may ebb and flow, the BDSM may become virtually nonexistent, but the love and the knowledge that this is still who we are is always there...even if it gets a bit thin at times.

Oh, and just remember....Exit to Eden is a book. An author can create any situation, twist any plotline, all in the interest of a good story. But it's still just a story.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

Sorry about the overzealous way I greeted you Miss Mouse. I was momentarily overcome at the realization of your return. Perhaps a more chaste otc would have been more in line with decorum...

 

[subbie_333]

I know that even us Dominants are human and far from perfect, and sometimes emotions can carry us into odd states of mind. I don't expect or demand perfection from myself, as the perfect Dominant only exists in erotica. I have regained a lot of my confidence as a Dominant and found myself yet again, but does anyone have any good suggestions on this love thing?

Don't let others define your relationship.

 

[CutieMouse]

Sorry about the overzealous way I greeted you Miss Mouse. I was momentarily overcome at the realization of your return. Perhaps a more chaste otc would have been more in line with decorum...

[hijack]

*snort*

[/hijack]

 

[Homburg]

I love both my gals. Love, in love, etc. It's just how I operate. I have no problem or disconnect with hurting them, making them cry, testing boundaries, etc, and it is largely because I love, and am loved. There is a layer of implied forgiveness and license there that would not, in my eyes, be there sans that love. This is obviously not true for other people, but it is not how _I_ work.

Part of the issue is care. How much I am willing to do in a relationship is directly related to how much I care about that person. My own kinks and desire are not all that complex, so I can satisfy my needs relatively simply. When I am with someone that truly, deeply care about, that simplicity morphs, and I can become inspired to do more interesting and impressive things.

That relationship is also necessary for me to have the levels of trust that I need to do certain things. I'm just not going to do edgeplay with a bottom that I'm not very comfortable with and trust implicitly. Not going to happen. With one notable exception, I would not dance the edge with someone that I do not own. That exception is someone that I found myself trusting immediately upon meeting her, and she feels the same way about me. This is why she is my favourite bottom outside those I've collared, and the only one that I will go well out of my way to play with. (Note: even though I do not own that bottom, I do love her as one loves a good friend. So some level of love is present even in that relationship.)

Anyway, the emotional stew that accompanies love is basically necessary for me to function as I prefer topwise. I can top sans those emotions, have it be smoking hot, and enjoy the scene, but the realisation that I would go farther, and it would be better, with someone I was emotionally involved with is always present.

And to riff off of something that VelvetDarkness said, the mix of love and fear is important to us as well. I love the fact that the girls trust me implicitly, yet sometimes find themselves shaking and terrified that I'm going to do something completely evil simply because they believe I might go there. This does not mean they trust me less, just that they recognise that their trust is a dangerous thing, and they might pay the price for it someday. This, to me, deepens that trust, as they recognise that there might just be dire consequences.

Trust and fear are core to M/s, and, for me, love is as well.

 

[Netzach]

There has to be a fundamental asymmetry for me. It's entirely possible that I may never return and that has to produce as much hard-on as distress. Simply because my having ALL the chips, really, has to produce as much hard-on as distress. I don't have all the chips when because my romantic attachment is so deep it would crush me if I ever did - something. Anything.

Very few people are cut out for my thing, needless to say.

 

[Homburg]

There has to be a fundamental asymmetry for me. It's entirely possible that I may never return and that has to produce as much hard-on as distress. Simply because my having ALL the chips, really, has to produce as much hard-on as distress. I don't have all the chips when because my romantic attachment is so deep it would crush me if I ever did - something. Anything.

Very few people are cut out for my thing, needless to say.

I can see this viewpoint. Can see a lot of purity in it too. It is not my thing, but I get it.