Logic & Morality

dr_mabeuse

seduce the mind
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Brain mishaps produce “cold” morality

March 21, 2007
Courtesy University of Southern California
and World Science staff

Imagine that someone you know has AIDS and plans to infect others, some of whom will die. Your only options are to let it happen or to kill the person. Do you pull the trigger?

Most people waver or say they couldn’t, even if they agree that in theory they should. But a new study reports that people with damage to one part of the brain make a less personal calculation. The logical choice, they say, is to sacrifice one life to save many.

The research shows that emotion plays a key role in moral decisions, scientists claim: if certain emotions are blocked, we make decisions that—right or wrong—seem unnaturally cold.

Past studies have linked damage to some brain areas with a lack of any discernible conscience, part of a syndrome commonly called psychopathy. The new study, by contrast, identified a region of brain damage tied to what the researchers portrayed as a narrower deficit: one that strips morality of an emotional component while leaving its logical part intact.

The scientists presented 30 males and females with scenarios pitting immediate harm to one person against future harm to many. Six participants had damage to the ventromedial prefrontal cortex, a small region behind the forehead; 12 had brain damage elsewhere; another 12 had no damage.

The scenarios in the study were extreme, but the core dilemma isn’t. Should one confront a co-worker, challenge a neighbor, or scold a loved one to uphold the greater good? The subjects with ventromedial prefrontal damage stood out in their stated willingness to harm an individual—a prospect that usually generates strong aversion, researchers said.

They have abnormal social emotions in real life. They lack empathy and compassion,” said Ralph Adolphs of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, Calif., one of the researchers.

“In those circumstances most people… will be torn. But these particular subjects seem to lack that conflict,” said Antonio Damasio of the University of Southern California, in Los Angeles, another of the scientists.

“Our work provides the first causal account of the role of emotions in moral judgments,” added a third member of the research team, Marc Hauser of Harvard University in Cambridge, Mass. The study appears March 21 in the advance online edition of the research journal Nature.

What’s “astonishing,” Hauser added, is “how selective the deficit is... [it] leaves intact a suite of moral problem solving abilities, but damages judgments in which an aversive action is put into direct conflict with a strong utilitarian outcome.” Utilitarianism is the belief that the top priority in ethics should be what’s best for the greatest number of people.

Humans often deviate from this principle because they recoil from directly harming one another. This aversion is “a combination of rejection of the act [and] compassion for that particular person,” Damasio said. The question, Adolphs asked, is whether “social emotions” such as compassion are “necessary to make these moral judgments.”

The study’s answer will inform a classic philosophical debate on whether humans make moral judgments based on norms and societal rules, or based on their emotions, the scientists predicted. It also holds another implication for philosophy, they said: it shows that humans are neurologically unfit for strict utilitarian thinking, and thus suggests neuroscience could test different philosophies for compatibility with human nature.

http://www.world-science.net/othernews/070320_morality.htm
 
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Isn't that the basis of all military thinking, Dr? Kill 10,000 soldiers so the world will be a better place and we can be free.

The falicy in that thinking is obvious when it comes to the 10,000 killed.
 
That is rather interesting, quite what I would expect, but interesting nonetheless. I would quibble a bit with a portion of the article, though I understand why they wrote it as they did, since my objections (philosophically) are outside its scope, in and of itself.
 
My biggest quibble when I read it was the this or that scenarios laid out. None of them offered a range of responses.

That said, I think it's pretty much stating the obvious. Emotions play a huge part in any decision, not just moral ones. Often your gut tells you things that your mind can't comprehend.

One thing not noted, is how we're taught to feel. Much of any human's emotional response is a result of cultural acclimatization. Bigotry, in many forms, has existed for centuries. Few people found any problem with that, save the victims of the bigotry. Bigotry was what people grew up with, they knew no other way to think or feel.

Anyway, psychopathy is an admired trait by much of our society, especially at the top. This study won't change that.
 
dr_mabeuse said:
Brain mishaps produce “cold” morality

March 21, 2007
Courtesy University of Southern California
and World Science staff

The logical choice, they say, is to sacrifice one life to save many.

The research shows that emotion plays a key role in moral decisions, scientists claim: if certain emotions are blocked, we make decisions that—right or wrong—seem unnaturally cold.

Past studies have linked damage to some brain areas with a lack of any discernible conscience, part of a syndrome commonly called psychopathy. The new study, by contrast, identified a region of brain damage tied to what the researchers portrayed as a narrower deficit: one that strips morality of an emotional component while leaving its logical part intact.

The scientists presented 30 males and females with scenarios pitting immediate harm to one person against future harm to many. Six participants had damage to the ventromedial prefrontal cortex, a small region behind the forehead; 12 had brain damage elsewhere; another 12 had no damage.

The scenarios in the study were extreme, but the core dilemma isn’t. Should one confront a co-worker, challenge a neighbor, or scold a loved one to uphold the greater good? The subjects with ventromedial prefrontal damage stood out in their stated willingness to harm an individual—a prospect that usually generates strong aversion, researchers said.

They have abnormal social emotions in real life. They lack empathy and compassion,” said Ralph Adolphs of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, Calif., one of the researchers.

“In those circumstances most people… will be torn. But these particular subjects seem to lack that conflict,” said Antonio Damasio of the University of Southern California, in Los Angeles, another of the scientists.

“Our work provides the first causal account of the role of emotions in moral judgments,” added a third member of the research team, Marc Hauser of Harvard University in Cambridge, Mass. The study appears March 21 in the advance online edition of the research journal Nature.

What’s “astonishing,” Hauser added, is “how selective the deficit is... [it] leaves intact a suite of moral problem solving abilities, but damages judgments in which an aversive action is put into direct conflict with a strong utilitarian outcome.” Utilitarianism is the belief that the top priority in ethics should be what’s best for the greatest number of people.

Humans often deviate from this principle because they recoil from directly harming one another. This aversion is “a combination of rejection of the act [and] compassion for that particular person,” Damasio said. The question, Adolphs asked, is whether “social emotions” such as compassion are “necessary to make these moral judgments.”

The study’s answer will inform a classic philosophical debate on whether humans make moral judgments based on norms and societal rules, or based on their emotions, the scientists predicted. It also holds another implication for philosophy, they said: it shows that humans are neurologically unfit for strict utilitarian thinking, and thus suggests neuroscience could test different philosophies for compatibility with human nature.

http://www.world-science.net/othernews/070320_morality.htm

I know exactly what this article speaks. Knew a guy - the kindest dude in the world, but in a car accident after a head injury he seemed to lose any sort of empathy (he said it like it was, even if what was was hurtful to some, but somehow he could and still can't help it). It probably seems an odd little thing, but one summer we were on the beach and he suddenly and for no reason simply stated "You have ugly feet." It hurt for all of a moment before I looked at my feet and agreed, "Yeah, so what's your point?"

"The point is they're ugly."

"Good enough," I answered, "are you trying to get me into bed?"

In any case, Doc, this raises a writing issue for me (how timely you are). I have for two years been trying to figure out how in the world to make an unsympathetic character (by all accounts) sympathetic without that character narratively lying to the audience ... indeed - with that character being honest with the audience. My ultimate goal is to affect the reader and entice them in with empathy (to give a new perspective on an old topic), only to let them leave the story questioning why they were ever empathetic in the first place and what makes them empathetic with the character? Underlying purpose is to make people aware that history CAN and does repeat. It's a tricky write, but I must admit that my first few paragraphs are nothing but vainly perfect.

Thanks for the article - great read. :kiss:
 
CharleyH said:
I know exactly what this article speaks. Knew a guy - the kindest dude in the world, but in a car accident after a head injury he seemed to lose any sort of empathy (he said it like it was, even if what was was hurtful to some, but somehow he could and still can't help it). It probably seems an odd little thing, but one summer we were on the beach and he suddenly and for no reason simply stated "You have ugly feet." It hurt for all of a moment before I looked at my feet and agreed, "Yeah, so what's your point?"

"The point is they're ugly."

"Good enough," I answered, "are you trying to get me into bed?"

In any case, Doc, this raises a writing issue for me (how timely you are). I have for two years been trying to figure out how in the world to make an unsympathetic character (by all accounts) sympathetic without that character narratively lying to the audience ... indeed - with that character being honest with the audience. My ultimate goal is to affect the reader and entice them in with empathy (to give a new perspective on an old topic), only to let them leave the story questioning why they were ever empathetic in the first place and what makes them empathetic with the character? Underlying purpose is to make people aware that history CAN and does repeat. It's a tricky write, but I must admit that my first few paragraphs are nothing but vainly perfect.

Thanks for the article - great read. :kiss:
This wouldn't be a bio of William Burroughs, would it? You've just described the entire history of my feelings toward the man! ;)
 
Stella_Omega said:
This wouldn't be a bio of William Burroughs, would it? You've just described the entire history of my feelings toward the man! ;)
Not at all friend, just recounting a scenario and am trying to best describe a non-erotic write I am doing without saying much. :rose: . :kiss:
 
CharleyH said:
Not at all friend, just recounting a scenario and am trying to best describe a non-erotic write I am doing without saying much. :rose: . :kiss:
Yes, I should have isolated the literary para in your post..

and the anecdote is interesting, by the way- did it take you a while to get used to this new personality this man evinced? I can imagine myself having to start-and-stop nearly every sentence in talking with this man.

I had a similar friend who changed drastically after brain damage; only he went from being a very left-brained, accountant to being an extremely emotional, poetic, and- yes, empathic- person. Not too surprising, since almost the entirety of his left hemisphere was jellied :eek: I had no idea anyone could survive that and regain functionality...
 
The good Dr. Mab and his research cohorts are perpetrating a rather obscene psychological reversal here; amusing.

Notwithstanding that the entire history of formal Epistemology in Philosophy, has been a tedious effort to understand just how the human mind functions and acquires knowledge; notwithstanding that the results of all formal inquiry have indicated that human beings are born with an emotional blank slate, tabula rasa.

No doubt that brain injured individuals function differently than 'normal' brain people, to purport that 'cold morality', based on reason and logic, is an evil thing, is downright ludicrous.

Poor Jenny and her ugly feets, grins....

Emotions are acquired as life is lived. Reason and logic are inherent in the basic function of the human mind but must be used and focused with precise methodology or one does become subject to making 'emotional' moral decisions simply because they never used their mind to think, merely to parrot.

The sappy assertion that logical, reasonable people are cold and emotionless, is pure balderdash, worthy of a giggle at most.

amicus...
 
CharleyH said:
I know exactly what this article speaks. Knew a guy - the kindest dude in the world, but in a car accident after a head injury he seemed to lose any sort of empathy (he said it like it was, even if what was was hurtful to some, but somehow he could and still can't help it). It probably seems an odd little thing, but one summer we were on the beach and he suddenly and for no reason simply stated "You have ugly feet." It hurt for all of a moment before I looked at my feet and agreed, "Yeah, so what's your point?"

"The point is they're ugly."

"Good enough," I answered, "are you trying to get me into bed?"
So did'ja bang him?
 
Stella_Omega said:
Yes, I should have isolated the literary para in your post..

and the anecdote is interesting, by the way- did it take you a while to get used to this new personality this man evinced? I can imagine myself having to start-and-stop nearly every sentence in talking with this man.

I had a similar friend who changed drastically after brain damage; only he went from being a very left-brained, accountant to being an extremely emotional, poetic, and- yes, empathic- person. Not too surprising, since almost the entirety of his left hemisphere was jellied :eek: I had no idea anyone could survive that and regain functionality...
I did not have to get used to him - family friends we saw at Hanukkahkah and Christmas. Brain damage is different for everyone ... all I know is that he went from sweet to unempathetically honest, yet honest all the same. :) AND YES, we slept together and thankfully that was a better experience than the vision of my "UGLY" feet! ;) lol :kiss:
 
CharleyH said:
I did not have to get used to him - family friends we saw at Hanukkahkah and Christmas. Brain damage is different for everyone ... all I know is that he went from sweet to unempathetically honest, yet honest all the same. :) AND YES, we slept together and thankfully that was a better experience than the vision of my "UGLY" feet! ;) lol :kiss:
That would be an interesting scenario for a short- an "honest fuck" :D
 
Stella_Omega said:
That would be an interesting scenario for a short- an "honest fuck" :D
People don't fuck honestly? Seriously, if and when I wanted I have walked up to men and women and simply said, "LETS FUCK" (I and we have) of course those same men disappeared the next day since I often introduced the pleasures of the prostate ... but that's a different story! Edited to add: :D
 
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They have abnormal social emotions in real life. They lack empathy and compassion.

I take exception to that statement. I don't lack empathy or compassion, and I'd pull the trigger if the only other option was to let them do what they planned.
 
CharleyH said:
People don't fuck honestly? Seriously, if and when I wanted I have walked up to men and women and simply said, "LETS FUCK" (I and we have) of course those same men disappeared the next day since I often introduced the pleasures of the prostate ... but that's a different story! Edited to add: :D
BWAH! I used to use the direct approach, but in these PC days, it seems, most women would like to meet for coffee or something first...

and the question arises, did you introduce the prostate issue ... honestly? because, I have to say, it can be so very tempting to do it in a dishonest way... ;)
 
Flashing on a memory, from the TV show Andromeda.

"Worlds governed by Artificial Intelligence often learned a hard lesson: Logic Doesn't Care." - Yin-Man Wei, "This Present Darkness: A History of the Interregnum", CY 11956
 
Stella_Omega said:
BWAH! I used to use the direct approach, but in these PC days, it seems, most women would like to meet for coffee or something first...

and the question arises, did you introduce the prostate issue ... honestly? because, I have to say, it can be so very tempting to do it in a dishonest way... ;)
Well not in the initial ask ... but I do enjoy fingers and toys (MINE!) Never really asked - just did. :devil: People enjoyed at the time, yet I believe it was too much for some to come back, not that I was rough ... just that certain people were less experienced than me. :D Never slept with anyone over 21. :D Serious.

EDIT ( OK i met them at 21 and stayed, but have never had a one night stand with anyone over 21) I do look young you know.
 
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CharleyH said:
I know exactly what this article speaks. Knew a guy - the kindest dude in the world, but in a car accident after a head injury he seemed to lose any sort of empathy (he said it like it was, even if what was was hurtful to some, but somehow he could and still can't help it). It probably seems an odd little thing, but one summer we were on the beach and he suddenly and for no reason simply stated "You have ugly feet." It hurt for all of a moment before I looked at my feet and agreed, "Yeah, so what's your point?"

"The point is they're ugly."

"Good enough," I answered, "are you trying to get me into bed?"

In any case, Doc, this raises a writing issue for me (how timely you are). I have for two years been trying to figure out how in the world to make an unsympathetic character (by all accounts) sympathetic without that character narratively lying to the audience ... indeed - with that character being honest with the audience. My ultimate goal is to affect the reader and entice them in with empathy (to give a new perspective on an old topic), only to let them leave the story questioning why they were ever empathetic in the first place and what makes them empathetic with the character? Underlying purpose is to make people aware that history CAN and does repeat. It's a tricky write, but I must admit that my first few paragraphs are nothing but vainly perfect.

Thanks for the article - great read. :kiss:

People with autism have terrible problems with empathy and so seem cut off from the world. To a lesser extent, so do people with Asperger's Syndrome. They're unable to empathize and therefore unable to anticipate how others will react emotionally to their words and actions, so they have all sorts of tragic and terrible social problems.

What interested me about this was its relevance to a discussion we had some time ago on the roots of morality, whether it was based on logic or emotion. I firmly believe morality is based on premises that are emotional, empathic, and arational and so it's impossible to develop a morality based solely on logic.

Even a basic proposition like "Life is worth living" is an emotional judgment. That life is worth living is basically a feeling we have and can't be logically proven, so right from the start we see that morality is based on emotional assumptions, not logical induction.
 
You can develop a morality based simply on logic.

It just won't be very pleasant.
 
CharleyH said:
In any case, Doc, this raises a writing issue for me (how timely you are). I have for two years been trying to figure out how in the world to make an unsympathetic character (by all accounts) sympathetic without that character narratively lying to the audience ... indeed - with that character being honest with the audience. My ultimate goal is to affect the reader and entice them in with empathy (to give a new perspective on an old topic), only to let them leave the story questioning why they were ever empathetic in the first place and what makes them empathetic with the character? Underlying purpose is to make people aware that history CAN and does repeat. It's a tricky write, but I must admit that my first few paragraphs are nothing but vainly perfect.

Make the character likeable.
 
dr_mabeuse said:
I firmly believe morality is based on premises that are emotional, empathic, and arational and so it's impossible to develop a morality based solely on logic.

I watched a movie last night ... THE HOURS ... intriguing film (my third time watching). What struck me was a statement - well maybe a question not sure ... the statement was "Aren't you lucky." Interesting reconsidering the question was asked to people who were depressed and suicidal and sad also. :) Seemed silly to ask that question or make a statement in context.
 
dr_mabeuse said:
People with autism have terrible problems with empathy and so seem cut off from the world. To a lesser extent, so do people with Asperger's Syndrome. They're unable to empathize and therefore unable to anticipate how others will react emotionally to their words and actions, so they have all sorts of tragic and terrible social problems.

What interested me about this was its relevance to a discussion we had some time ago on the roots of morality, whether it was based on logic or emotion. I firmly believe morality is based on premises that are emotional, empathic, and arational and so it's impossible to develop a morality based solely on logic.

Even a basic proposition like "Life is worth living" is an emotional judgment. That life is worth living is basically a feeling we have and can't be logically proven, so right from the start we see that morality is based on emotional assumptions, not logical induction.


Zoot, I'm so glad you added Asperger's to the discussion.

My children have difficulty at times with the understanding of social norms. Their disability is not too severe, they place at the high functioning end of the spectrum, but there are definite times that they remain confused about certain expectations.

They do see a terrific child psych who works with them on role-playing actions for different situations (among other things). If they practice it, they can learn what to say, what to do, how to react.

This is so they can fit in.

Our pets help tremendously, and lately our young logical son has been cooing to the cats as he strokes their fur. This is good. As they mature we're seeing more positive social behaviors emerging due to repetition and training.

But it's telling that this strictly logical/analytical point of view is considered a disability.
 
dr_mabeuse said:
People with autism have terrible problems with empathy and so seem cut off from the world. To a lesser extent, so do people with Asperger's Syndrome. They're unable to empathize and therefore unable to anticipate how others will react emotionally to their words and actions, so they have all sorts of tragic and terrible social problems.

What interested me about this was its relevance to a discussion we had some time ago on the roots of morality, whether it was based on logic or emotion. I firmly believe morality is based on premises that are emotional, empathic, and arational and so it's impossible to develop a morality based solely on logic.

Even a basic proposition like "Life is worth living" is an emotional judgment. That life is worth living is basically a feeling we have and can't be logically proven, so right from the start we see that morality is based on emotional assumptions, not logical induction.

I am not sure what I can say. I know what I experience. I do agree that barring such incidents - morality is based more in emotion than logic. Morality is emotional after all - it is certainly not logical. :)
 
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