Fake 1st Person

[pink_silk_glove]

If you want to ban every discussion that expresses a judgmental opinion, or every poster who thinks they know better than everyone else, it would be very quiet here.

I've read his post four times, quite carefully, and I do not see anything that indicates a notion to ban the discussion.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

First person can be very interesting if the character is reasonably self-aware and has many thoughts or observations that they don't necessarily share with others. Which is probably most protagonists worth writing about.

Present tense - yeah, it can be grating. I feel it works where you have a narrator with a strong voice who would naturally tell an anecdote in the 'present' tense: "So, right - I'm walking down the street, right, and this guy comes up to me and he goes, 'blah blah' and I'm like, I tell him, no way, and... and then we're in bed shagging like bunnies!"

If it doesn't add to an impression of a vivid story, don't. I admit I did one long story and realised I'd written nearly half my draft in past tense and a bit more than half in present tense, so made it all present just out of laziness. It mostly works, but would probably have been better in the past. (Image Nine Point Four, if anyone wants to take a view)

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I've had a couple of comments that indicate that they believe that my first person narrative is actually me. I've also had a couple of guys in chat compliment me on a story and then be disappointed when they learn that my first person narrative was actually a fictional character.

I named one of my characters Shelby. Yeah, not going to do that again.

 

[SinclairGroupLLP]

Solve the problem by not writing in 1st person present tense.

Bingo. All of my first person narration is done in the past tense, and I try to treat it like the narrator is telling a story to a friend or writing in a diary well after the fact. This gives me the ultimate freedom, in my view, because not only can I explain what is happening there, I can have the narrator throw in snide comments in a "I wish I knew then what I know now" way, as well as speak to the reader breaking the 4th wall.

 

[SimonDoom]

Bingo. All of my first person narration is done in the past tense, and I try to treat it like the narrator is telling a story to a friend or writing in a diary well after the fact. This gives me the ultimate freedom, in my view, because not only can I explain what is happening there, I can have the narrator throw in snide comments in a "I wish I knew then what I know now" way, as well as speak to the reader breaking the 4th wall.

I agree that the problems arise more from the tense than from the point of view. I almost never write in present tense. It feels less natural and it's a bit harder to do right. If I tell a story in past tense then my narration can benefit from the passage of time between the happening and the telling. It eliminates some of the problem that the OP raises.

 

[grey228]

It’s just another manifestation of poor writing. First-person doesn’t cause this, but many writers probably choose first-person because it seems easier - without realizing that the “ease” of writing well has very little to do with what voice they choose.

In short - writing isn’t easy.

Unless you’re a natural. But these aren’t the people we’re talking about, here.

First person is more intimate, but places readers in the author's shoes.

Limited third person is usually better, but author omniscience creeps in if they're unaware they're doing it as the story goes on.

When I write first-person, I do so like I'm explaining my actions and thought process to someone. Not sure if that's a great method, but it's my method. And no, those examples aren't on LiT.

 

[StillStunned]

First person is more intimate, but places readers in the author's shoes.

Limited third person is usually better, but author omniscience creeps in if they're unaware they're doing it as the story goes on.

When I write first-person, I do so like I'm explaining my actions and thought process to someone. Not sure if that's a great method, but it's my method. And no, those examples aren't on LiT.

I've mentioned a few times here that 1P feels more natural for voyeur stories than 3P does.

 

[Trionyx]

I've mentioned a few times here that 1P feels more natural for voyeur stories than 3P does.

That seems to make sense.

What I find interesting about my writing is how I never consciously plan on FP or TP when I start writing. It just ‘happens’ spontaneously. If I ever do a voyeur story, I’ll keep your suggestion in mind.

 

[Belegon]

I'd say first person PAST is my favorite writing tense. But I also try very hard not to narrate my characters expressions, or movements. I do it sometimes in dialogue, but often I'll try to throw in a misunderstanding of tone or something from the listening character, mostly as hint to the reader that this isn't Omniscient first person past. I think that a lot of the expectations from the younger generation are for first person narration, and I would imagine that has a lot to do with style changes in other media than what we are producing.

 

[VerbalAbuse]

It could have been phrased in a less confrontational manner, but at least it grabbed people's attention. The rest of the discussion has been mostly constructive.

If you want to ban every discussion that expresses a judgmental opinion, or every poster who thinks they know better than everyone else, it would be very quiet here.

Also, the OP ends with:

That indicates that they concede there's a reason for "fake" first person, and therefore that the alternative is not automatically better.

Absolutely. That's what I said. It's difficult to do it without your character not appearing "detached, lacking emotion and depth."

The text doesn't exist in vacuum. It can't be measured objectively. It's interpreted by the readers. And most contemporary readers expect a certain style. Hence the dilemma.

 

[summer_reine]

Reading these posts has me wondering if my Moan series is written poorly. They are all first person present tense. The story is meant to be immersive, it is describing a scene between the author and the reader. I started writing it in past tense but I didn't like that it felt like a story, I wanted to create a moment with the reader. It's a 4th wall type story and I haven't read anything else like it although quite a few audio here are acted the same way. I'm hoping that I have done a decent job describing both the action and conversation without it feeling tedious or worse, contrived.

Tl;Dr I think there can be a place for 1st person present tense stories if it the intention is to directly involve the reader in the story.

 

[VerbalAbuse]

Reading these posts has me wondering if my Moan series is written poorly. They are all first person present tense. The story is meant to be immersive, it is describing a scene between the author and the reader. I started writing it in past tense but I didn't like that it felt like a story, I wanted to create a moment with the reader. It's a 4th wall type story and I haven't read anything else like it although quite a few audio here are acted the same way. I'm hoping that I have done a decent job describing both the action and conversation without it feeling tedious or worse, contrived.

Tl;Dr I think there can be a place for 1st person present tense stories if it the intention is to directly involve the reader in the story.

You could have linked your story here -- for others' convenience. I had a look at your Serenity story (part 1.) I could give you my thoughts privately.

 

[grey228]

Reading these posts has me wondering if my Moan series is written poorly. They are all first person present tense. The story is meant to be immersive, it is describing a scene between the author and the reader. I started writing it in past tense but I didn't like that it felt like a story, I wanted to create a moment with the reader. It's a 4th wall type story and I haven't read anything else like it although quite a few audio here are acted the same way. I'm hoping that I have done a decent job describing both the action and conversation without it feeling tedious or worse, contrived.

Tl;Dr I think there can be a place for 1st person present tense stories if it the intention is to directly involve the reader in the story.

First person, past tense, usually works best. Unless you're writing an action scene and bringing the reader along like in Birdman.

 

[NotWise]

Reading these posts has me wondering if my Moan series is written poorly. They are all first person present tense. The story is meant to be immersive, it is describing a scene between the author and the reader. I started writing it in past tense but I didn't like that it felt like a story, I wanted to create a moment with the reader. It's a 4th wall type story and I haven't read anything else like it although quite a few audio here are acted the same way. I'm hoping that I have done a decent job describing both the action and conversation without it feeling tedious or worse, contrived.

Tl;Dr I think there can be a place for 1st person present tense stories if it the intention is to directly involve the reader in the story.

There probably is a place for 1st person present tense.

I tend to fall into present tense when I'm writing the synopsis of a new story--just ideas coming quickly--and if the story is meant to be 1st person, then I'm writing in 1st person present tense. I rewrite to past tense when I actually write the story.

The one case I can think of where I used it in a final draft was for dialog in "Her Dream House." The woman relates a series of sexual fantasies to a man she doesn't know and will probably never meet again, and she speaks in 1st person present tense.

There are probably other cases where it can be used effectively in dialog.

As for your series, you probably have to judge your success from the readers' reactions.

 

[YmaOHyd]

I tend to, I guess, write in first person past but deliberately creep into present when the narrator is feeling overwhelmed, maybe a little out of control emotionally. Like, if you're telling a story orally to someone and you get caught up in it, you might make that change naturally as you start reliving the story with more immediacy. You start with "I went to the store. It was my turn to make dinner, so I picked up some blah blah blah", and end up with a bunch of present participles: "so there I am, running from the cops with my pants around my ankles. Good thing I'm the world's fastest sack racer." When the narrator's done running from the cops, they lapse back into past tense once the tension of the moment has broken.

 

[ronde]

First person is more intimate, but places readers in the author's shoes.

Limited third person is usually better, but author omniscience creeps in if they're unaware they're doing it as the story goes on.

When I write first-person, I do so like I'm explaining my actions and thought process to someone. Not sure if that's a great method, but it's my method. And no, those examples aren't on LiT.

For me, first person is exactly what you state. It's my character telling the story to the reader and exposing his thoughts in the process. I also write in past tense. First person present feels to me way to close to second person because the first person narrator is basically relating the action as it transpires.

While I understand third person limited, I never use it for the same reason - the omniscience always creeps in. As I write, I keep asking myself why a character would do or say something in order to make their speech and actions seem believable. Without the third person omniscient narrator, it becomes really difficult to explain that. Third person limited can give the reader a good understanding of one character, but the other characters will be viewed through that character's eyes just as in first person. The only difference is the third person narrator is telling the story instead of the character relating the story. I think my readers enjoy the extra insight into the other characters motivations and feeling more than they would guessing at those motivations and feelings because the main character can't relate them.

 

[ronde]

I tend to, I guess, write in first person past but deliberately creep into present when the narrator is feeling overwhelmed, maybe a little out of control emotionally. Like, if you're telling a story orally to someone and you get caught up in it, you might make that change naturally as you start reliving the story with more immediacy. You start with "I went to the store. It was my turn to make dinner, so I picked up some blah blah blah", and end up with a bunch of present participles: "so there I am, running from the cops with my pants around my ankles. Good thing I'm the world's fastest sack racer." When the narrator's done running from the cops, they lapse back into past tense once the tension of the moment has broken.

I don't see how this example demonstrates a change from first person past to first person present. It's still the narrator telling the story as it happened. It's also all dialogue, and dialogue is how real people speak. You can throw in all manner of grammatical errors in dialogue because most people don't speak proper, grammatically correct English. That said, I've never taken a writing class since high school, so maybe things have change.

 

[YmaOHyd]

I don't see how this example demonstrates a change from first person past to first person present. It's still the narrator telling the story as it happened. It's also all dialogue, and dialogue is how real people speak. You can throw in all manner of grammatical errors in dialogue because most people don't speak proper, grammatically correct English. That said, I've never taken a writing class since high school, so maybe things have change.

I'm talking about applying that sort of dialogue approach outside dialogue in a first person narrative, where the verbs change tense to convey information about the narrator's emotional state.

 

[grey228]

For me, first person is exactly what you state. It's my character telling the story to the reader and exposing his thoughts in the process. I also write in past tense. First person present feels to me way to close to second person because the first person narrator is basically relating the action as it transpires.

While I understand third person limited, I never use it for the same reason - the omniscience always creeps in. As I write, I keep asking myself why a character would do or say something in order to make their speech and actions seem believable. Without the third person omniscient narrator, it becomes really difficult to explain that. Third person limited can give the reader a good understanding of one character, but the other characters will be viewed through that character's eyes just as in first person. The only difference is the third person narrator is telling the story instead of the character relating the story. I think my readers enjoy the extra insight into the other characters motivations and feeling more than they would guessing at those motivations and feelings because the main character can't relate them.

I think part of the problem authors have with 1P is rooted in their inability to communicate their thoughts via writing in text, or they have such ridiculous abilities readers are unable to fathom being in that person's shoes. Best example would be the LiT author Narg, who I found hilarious but his character literally grows his dick to the size of a meteor and dick slaps a whole city into oblivion.

I've done a few 3P stories but learned to limit the view to that character as if I'm there describing it from my own eyes. Takes some effort, but it can be done.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

who I found hilarious but his character literally grows his dick to the size of a meteor and dick slaps a whole city into oblivion.

Pfft, heh ... heh ... haha ...

 

[mirafrida]

Several times (writing past tense) I've found myself drawn to doing first person perspective from a narrator character, rather than a major character. Gatsby-like I suppose. It's never really been a reasoned decision, - ust felt right, and I'm not quite sure why. Maybe a way to get both immediacy and remove. Anyway, it has seemed to work.

 

[RetroFan]

I'm always greatly entertained by commenters who assume the first-person narrator character's voice is my voice. Some readers do have a very hard time separating the two...

I've had that too, especially on Incest Taboo stories. I remember in the second half of 2020 writing and posting 'My Nephew Got Into My Knickers' narrating as the aunt; 'Secret Sex With My Stepdaughter' narrating as the stepfather; 'Banging Cousin Becky In Blackpool' narrating as the male cousin and 'The Pervert Ghost' narrating as the ghost as well as a couple of third person stories. I then got comments being critical of the aunt and stepfather addressed directly to me, such as 'We don't want to hear your life story' in the case of the aunt and 'Why did you wait so long to screw your stepdaughter?' in the case of the stepfather.

Given all these stories have very different narrators and are set in different locations in different periods of time 'I' can't be all these people, can I? Especially the pervert ghost, who died in a thunderstorm in Adelaide South Australia at age 18 in 2001.

 

[8letters]

Alternatively, seeing as this is "A place for writers and readers to socialize and discuss the craft of writing", we can express our opinions and get feedback, perhaps find out whether we're alone in our likes and dislikes, learn ways to overcome shortcomings in our writing skills, discuss trends in style, and hopefully all become better or wiser in the process.

If a poster says they prefer first person to third person or past tense to present tense, who cares? That's just one opinion. Until there's data that shows which performs better, write what you want.

 

[grey228]

I'm

Several times (writing past tense) I've found myself drawn to doing first person perspective from a narrator character, rather than a major character. Gatsby-like I suppose. It's never really been a reasoned decision, - ust felt right, and I'm not quite sure why. Maybe a way to get both immediacy and remove. Anyway, it has seemed to work.

The play Our Town does that with the stage manager character. He might be omniscient, but if you want to introduce your readers to your world/universe, it's best done to an outside observer / visitor / inexperienced individual.

That allows you (the author) to do mild exposition and showcase some neat details or things.

 

[Audiflex]

A lot of the first-person present narrations are quite fake -- full of self-awareness that real people don’t have in the moment. The problem is that readers are now expecting a sort of performative first-person, where the narrator conveniently registers every meaningful reaction, insight, and bit of body language. Real people do no such things.

Most stories of first-person present go for a self-indulgent, hyper-aware style. The “I say with a devilish grin” thing is a symptom of that -- an attempt to make the character’s emotions clear rather than trusting the reader to infer them.

And that's hardly the only issue. Readers don't know NOT to trust the first-person present narrator. By default, the assumption should be the narrator is unreliable, if not plain dishonest and delusional. But because of how contemporary first-person present narrations are written, most readers stake their lives on the narrator's saying.

Trying to do a true first-person present -- where the MC isn’t constantly narrating their own expressions or analyzing their own emotions -- becomes a challenge. It’s going to feel different to many/most readers. It's going to appear detached, lacking emotion and depth.

You’re spot on, first-person present can feel so over-polished and fake, like the narrator’s a mind-reading poet instead of a real person. The hyper-awareness thing is exhausting, and yeah, readers have come to expect it, which makes authentic narration feel “off” to them. Writing a true first-person present, where the character isn’t constantly dissecting their every thought and expression, is tough but refreshing. It’s a balancing act: staying in the moment while trusting readers to pick up on subtleties. Definitely a challenge, but worth it for that raw, real feel.