Little white lies or big whopping fish tales...

[sheath]

Some of you might recongize this as something I posted on the GB a while back...but only two replies, so I thought this board might enjoy tackling this...

And you know me, I've never been one to ask something SIMPLE, heaven forbid, haha.

So...

Here's the scenario: (and I use "he" as the identifier, but that could be a man OR a woman, depending...got that? Good. )

You are in a committed and stable relationship with someone. After a while, things just don't quite add up when the two of you talk. Little details about his or her past are discussed...no big deal. But then you realize that each time it is brought up, something is a LITTLE bit different. Nothing big, just a little. For instance: One night he says he was with twenty partners. The next week, he says it was twenty-two. He says no, he has never had anal sex. A month later he amends that with "Except for this one time..." Then the little lies begin to move from the sexual realm to everything else...but still, very small lies. Just the kind that make you go, "hmmm..."

Just how important are those little details? And is omitting or changing details here and there, over and over, the equivalent to one devastating lie?

S.

 

[James G 5]

A few little inconsistencies from time to time are no biggie
People forget things, or leave them out, or are not initially comfortable sharing them
HOWEVER
If there's a consistent PATTERN and he is ALWAYS changing things, or changing them to suit his needs at the time, or to push you towards something.............it's time to start questioning his honesty

Some of you might recongize this as something I posted on the GB a while back...but only two replies, so I thought this board might enjoy tackling this...

And you know me, I've never been one to ask something SIMPLE, heaven forbid, haha.

So...

Here's the scenario: (and I use "he" as the identifier, but that could be a man OR a woman, depending...got that? Good. )

You are in a committed and stable relationship with someone. After a while, things just don't quite add up when the two of you talk. Little details about his or her past are discussed...no big deal. But then you realize that each time it is brought up, something is a LITTLE bit different. Nothing big, just a little. For instance: One night he says he was with twenty partners. The next week, he says it was twenty-two. He says no, he has never had anal sex. A month later he amends that with "Except for this one time..." Then the little lies begin to move from the sexual realm to everything else...but still, very small lies. Just the kind that make you go, "hmmm..."

Just how important are those little details? And is omitting or changing details here and there, over and over, the equivalent to one devastating lie?

S.

 

[OSA]

Agreed

I agree with James on this. It's common for a person to adjust facts to suit a situation especially if they are uncomfortable or embarrassed by the truth. For example, if a person has had very many or very few partners, they may be embarrassed by this. So, the number quoted may be fewer or more to make it not seem "bad." If that's what is happening, then he's probably just trying to avoid being embarrassed.

On the other hand, if this is happening constantly, then it sounds like he's completely insecure with his background or unable to tell the truth. Either of these probably is not a good basis for a future.

I would recommend confronting him in a non-aggressive way next time it happens. You mentioned his story about anal sex changing during two different conversations. If something like that happens again, tell him that you thought he answered differently before. Ask him does he just not remember or is he embarrassed about it. It could be a big breakthrough in your relationship by reaching a new level of honesty. It could be the beginning of the end. Thus are the chances we take in relationships.

Okay, that last was starting to sound too poetic, but you get the picture.

Hope that helps.
OSA

 

[Amfig]

How bad it is depends. Everbody exaggerates, up or down, early on in a relationship. Over time the stories should level out and be pretty close to the truth. If they haven't levelled out with a fairly short period of time, the teller is either a pathological liar or in the early stages of Alzheimer's.

 

[CelticFrog]

Because I can now look at this thread and safely assume that Music Man was doing this,

Yeah.

Here's yet another example of how well someone like.... THAT... can hoodwink a normally trusting person.

Just remember it's not YOU that is the bad person.

It's fuck-knob.

Ang

 

[sheath]

Again...boy, Ang. You are really reinforcing everything my counselor has been telling me...all I have learned over the last few months is coming so clear in these threads.

I am still amazed I didn't see it all before. But I guess it is hard to see it all when you are the one inside the bubble, huh?

S.

 

[BlueSugar]

Oi you're on a tear! lol

I don't enjoy them. I would rather know then not know. I would rather take it all in, disect, think, and then question.

Little things like that drive me nuts and I don't tolerate, after a few months I get down to the truth. These little things usually deal with the past or current past things ... and if he/they cannot tell me something little like that, what the hell else are they hiding... I give it a bit of liencey in the beginning but if I see the pattern, and he/they are still trying to go along with it ... I'm liable to flip out for them suspecting me to be stupid.

If I'm honest with them, and bare my all so the relationship can work, the friendship can work... what the hell is their problem??

---
side note: this is an occuring theme in my life, it is my quest to 'know' truths about my life and about family and the relationships, alot of bad things happened... alot... and I've had to go through some pretty extensive therapy ontop of deal with normal life while I go through my boughts of ataining pieces of my puzzle...
---

so yea... little things get to me, and I don't let them pile up anymore.

 

[thegreenfairy]

Not to get too philosophical, but... there are different degrees of truth. When I'm asked question about my sexual history (by people who have a right to be asking), I never lie. I do however, tell the version of the truth which I think is the most relevant for them. Later, if the issue surfaces again, I might tell a different version of the truth.

Example to make this clearer: A guy asked me how many people I had slept with. My answer was "I slept with x numer of guys." Why? Because I excluded the women I had slept with. Am I lying? Maybe. But I didn't feel like explaining that I'm bi, but not *that* bi, and its not a lifestyle thing, and I'm still confused about it...

That said, I once dated a pathological liar, and it was terrifying. The guy genuinely believed his own lies. Some were small, but some were major things - like a year of college, a job, etc. So watch out for liars, but remember that truth is a fluid concept in any discipline.

 

[ChromeCollar]

Do you notice these "inconsistancies" in only one area of conversation, or many? In my past experiences, if they are going to lie about one thing, they are probably lying about many. My ex fiance was awful, a pathological liar like GreenFairy said. He invinted things, and told them, then believed them.

It is a devastating trap for them to get into... and devastating for the person being dragged into the trap with them. I personally would avoid someone you suspect of lying, that road can lead to so much hurt and heartbreak. {But I tend to shy away from both of those things anyhow, so thats just my take. ;] }

 

[NaiveOne]

Ya know, it's really easy for people to read this thread and say "I wouldn't get involved with people who lie." Or "It depends on the type of lie." Or "I would confront him." And this is all really good advice!

But there is no way you can recognize what's going on when it's going on unless you have some prior experience or are super cynical (and who wants to live their life like that!). I think it goes back to the trust issue. You loved him and you trusted him and never expected to be lied to like that. So what reason would you have to look for it? And many little white lies over two-years time do build up, but it's not something you're keeping tally of when your in the relationship.

So, like Ang said, it's not you who did something wrong. It's not you who deserved any of this. You deserved to be able to trust what he said.

 

[Bobmi357]

Sheath,
I noticed that the bulk of the lies you used as examples related to sex, and all of it pertaining to before you were a couple.

Some people are reluctant to divulge information about their past sexual history to their current lover, either for fears of being thought as "way too experienced or kinky", or fear of being thought as being "way to naive or inexperienced".

And from my point of view, past sexual history should only matter in regard to dealing with the issues of possible stds. I know next to nothing about my wife's sexual past history, and about the only thing I know is in regard to loosing her virginity she says "it wasn't all that great", which could mean anything. On the otherhand she knows nearly every detail of my pitifully few past sexual experiences. Knowing her past would not make me love her any less. Its not really important to "now" considering that past was more than 10 yrs ago.

So assume for a moment that you are with someone that isn't really a habitual liar, but they are the type that is uncomfortable with their own past and reluctant to talk about it. Asking things involving hard numbers, ie "How many times did you let someone take you up your ass?" or "How many girls have you slept with?", can lead to inaccurate answers. What you percieve as lies can be merely the result of them not remembering what they told you the last time so they throw out a number in same region, but not quite the same one, and you think "LIE!".

The amount of information that one partner is entitled to regarding past sexxual experiences needs is limited. Sure I would love to know more about my wife's past experiences, and quite frankly I am very jealous of whomever took her virginity. I sincerely believe I could have turned it from "not all that great" to something much more memorable. But asides from that, I don't really need to know that she had X number of guys or girls, or participated in N orgies, or gangbangs etc. What happened in her past is her past and to be honest, I'm more interested and concerned with her now instead of her past.

If you're with a habitual liar, you will find they lie over a multitude of topics, not just one topic. In the case of noticing one set of discrepancies in one topic area, I would say its probably a reluctance to talk about it instead of a deliberate attempt to mislead you.

 

[warrior queen]

1. big whopping fish tales = no respect whatsoever.

2. little white lies = possible respect issues becoming bigger.

3. inconsistancies (on the other hand) = someone with a really bad memory.

conclusion.....

1. DUMP HIM RIGHT NOW! GET OUT WHILE YOU STILL CAN! QUICK, DON'T LET HIM/HER MANIPULATE YOU INTO STAYING FOR ANY REASON!

2. possibility of communication being able to solve the emerging issues, but if it's been going on for a while, doubtful.

3. well, you know, alcohol abuse does that to a person, and let's face it, we've all had trouble telling the same thing EXACTLY the same way over and over.

just my opinion

 

[BlueSugar]

:: sighs:: i noticed a few more today, and this thread has me almost searching for them now...

we have a mixbreed pup she looks half pit/black lab but there are more breeds in her. And shes 4almost5 months old now and is starting to lose her teeth ... there was a lose one when I left to get something at the store (and he was complaining and wanting to pull it out for her- but I said it wasn't that loose yet ... so don't do it) I got back and he had it in a bag for me ... (bc she lost 7 and ate them... and I wanted one if we could catch one in her toy...) He had the toy in hand (no blood on the toy...not even a speck) and told me that he was playing tug/fetch with her and it fell out.

Its small, but I feel like the pup has become our child and hes lieing about pulling my kid's tooth. blah. sheath's thread, not mine.

-end hissy fit-

 

[Noor]

Okay, I am just a little touchy on this subject, I really don't like lies, not even white lies.

I don't like stories that change, especially current ones. I don't like people telling me that don't want to lose me, they won't leave me and then are gone. I actually distrust anyone who tries to reassure me of something like that now, esp I when I never ask for their reassurance. I especially hate lies that are told for no reason at all, except the liars want to feel good about themselves.

I find that people lie to protect themselves, to make themselves feel better about what they are really doing, and so they can say they lied to protect you.

I can understand a lack of full disclosure and I think people have a right to privacy regarding their past and other relationships. I also understand forgetting the past experiences, after all I have been having sex for over 30 yrs and maybe I did have sex in a bath tub on wheels but forgot until something you said or did reminded me

Lies hurt people and hurt relationships, and they should be avoided at all costs. Many lover relationships which could have easily morphed into friendships have been destroyed because of stupid unnessecary lies.

There are ways of being tactful and honest, and if a person doesn't know what is happening, wants time out, whatever, they should just tell the truth.

just my crabby opinion,

Noor

 

[AttentionWhore]

I agree with Bob on this one. I do not divulge the number of sexual partners I've had, nor do I ask. I am very diligent in having the STD conversation.

HOWEVER

If the person I'm dating is lying about things that are important TO ME ie, number of kids, number of spouses, and I catch them, it's out the door on your ass, hope you like living on the streets because you are not welcome to breathe the air I exhale. Don't lie to me about your gambling problem, and when confronted about it, you damn well better not blame it on me.

I dated someone for too long that was somewhat of an "exagerator". If you said the sky was blue, he'd say that no, it was azure with a slight tint of turquoise. He had to out do everyone, and the inconsistencies with his stories and tales and lies of material things drove me insane. I know his problems boiled down to insecurities on his part, but until he got help, no where was it written in my job description to deal with it.

Basically, you have to look at the big picture. Is this someone who embellishes things to make himself look good, or is this a severe problem that I can't live with for the next million years?

 

[Missingmeds]

sheath,

I just have to stick my two cents worth in this. If someone lies about something, anything, then they will lie about other things when it suits them.

I tell people before I get too involved with them about my honesty policy. If I ask a question and you don't remember or don't know the answer then simply tell me that. Don't ask me a question and then get mad at me for the answer either.

But do not lie to me. I won't tolerate it. I was seriously lied to by someone a year ago and it still hurts. Not only that but it makes me less than trusting with most people that I meet. They basically have to prove themselves to me. That makes my and their lives difficult at times and I am sure I have missed out on some good people because of it. Not because they lied, they just couldn't live with the repeated questions to see if what they said changed any.

With Music Man, while yes it goes hand in hand with the other things that he has going on, it is still no excuse and he made the choice to lie when telling the truth would have been just as easy. But telling the truth would have meant having to take responsibility for things that he had/was doing.

If your councilor is telling you this, then you have a good one. Stick with them.

 

[Bobmi357]

There are lies, and then there are lies. And not all lies are equal. We all lie to some extent. Our memory isn't perfect, so recalling an event may introduce an non-truth from time to time. And then there are the "Save your butt" lies, like when the wife asks "Does this make me look fat?". Damned if you answer positively, damned if you answer negatively.

Some lies are deliberate, but meant not to hurt you. For example I've been asked on many occasion to tell people what I think about their website. They ask me about this because I've been co-owner of a company that builds sites and net software for more than 10 years now. I used to tell the truth, until I realized that people didn't want to know what I really think. People didn't want to hear me spout off about outrageous color schemes and layouts that looked like a 3yr old with a crayon built the site. Now days I either do not give an opinion, or give a very nonjudgement "its not bad". And believe me, if someone working for me had built some of the sites I've seen, I would have had them out the door faster than you can type Jack Robinson.

Delibrate lying to avoid hurting someone's feelings it probably one of the few more socially acceptable types of lies.

Lying to avoid punishment is something we learn at an extremely young age. I remember watching a tv special once about young children and lying. This one psychologist placed a freshly made chocolate cake on a table in front of her 3 yr old son and had a hidden video camera taping him. She told him not to touch the cake, then left him alone in the room. Naturally the boy ignored the instructions and dug into the cake. When she returned, and asked what happened to the cake she was told the dog ate it, despite the fact that there was never a dog present in the room (at least not from the video I saw). I found it interesting that we somehow instruct our kids in the art of lying despite our attempts to do otherwise. Think of the messages we send about old aunt Martha when we're nice to them face to face and complaining like crazy to our spouses about that annoying old biddy when aunt Martha leaves. Our kids aren't stupid and they can pick up on the subtlest of clues like this.

Lying in a relationship is probably the most dangerous thing to the relationship. It implies a certain amount of lack of respect, and lack of trust.

I firmly believe that one of the reasons why my relationship with my wife prospered was the simple fact that neither of us lied to the other person. We spent months online just talking before we met face to face. There were initial problems, at the time I was married and still living with my ex. I told her that, I also told her I WOULD not meet her until such time as I had left and at least gotten the divorce proceedings underway. I didn't have to tell her that, I was 2400 miles away from her, I could have told her I was divorced already, I could have told her anything. Telling her was a gamble, a risk that paid off. She could have told me that she wasn't interested in a married man, and at that point she would have been correct. I told her what my married life was like, she could have broken off the relationship and left it at that.

Honesty in a relationship sometimes means risking everything in order to strengthen your relationship. But 100% honesty can be brutally painful. Sometimes we're placed in a position of having to chose between lying or saying something you know will hurt your partner. Personally I do not like hurting her. That doesn't mean that sometimes I won't say something that hurts her. I am sure our conversations about her drop in libido have hurt her to an extent. But generally speaking people do lie to prevent hurting other people more than they lie for any other reason.

 

[SlickTony]

Oh, Sheath, I know how disturbing and weirding-out this all must be. Take care.

My first husband told me some outrageous lies, but I think he did it because he was afraid I would leave him if he told the truth. My present one will sometimes ramp a few things up to make the story better, but he thinks like a writer although he doesn't write as much as I do.

 

[thegreenfairy]

I don't like people telling me that don't want to lose me, they won't leave me and then are gone. I actually distrust anyone who tries to reassure me of something like that now, esp I when I never ask for their reassurance. I especially hate lies that are told for no reason at all, except the liars want to feel good about themselves.
Noor

Let's be realistic... there is a difference between a lie and a false promise. When my ex said that he was an NYU student, that was a lie. A big one. When he said that he loved me and would always be there for me, that was not a lie. It turned out to be untrue. But he certainly meant it to be true, and did not say it with the anticipation of a big, messy breakup.

Also, a person who lies about one thing will not neccessarily lie about others. I would never lie about an STD or anything equally major. But I will occaisonally lie about something out of consideration, or because something is too godamned personal.

We all hate being lied to... but the world wouldn't be so great if nobody ever lied, either ("actually, your penis is kind of small...."). There needs to be a balance, of some sort, one that is heavily weighted towards the side of honesty.

 

[fgarvb1]

Depends. My wife will lie about things like that. She had lots of boyfriends and thats to be expected as we didn't meet until she was twenty-six.

I don't care anyway. What happened before doesn't matter and really none of my business.

As for me I would avoid answering if possible unless pined down.

Its like this, I don't remember how many how many ladies I have been with because I don't think of them all the time.

Somewhere over eighty if I think on it for awhile. It gives me a headache so i don't try.

 

[James G 5]

Again...boy, Ang. You are really reinforcing everything my counselor has been telling me...all I have learned over the last few months is coming so clear in these threads.

I am still amazed I didn't see it all before. But I guess it is hard to see it all when you are the one inside the bubble, huh?

S.

While agreeing with what Bob says about many people being reluctant to divulge everything about their sexual pasts, in your case it was part of a broader pattern
You're right about the "bubble" thing tho
I know at least a few people D) tried to suggest maybe there were problems well before they became apparent to you, but from your position they were hard to see
That's often true when someone is in love...you WILLFULLY overlook things that should be ringing alarm bells because you want to believe in the love & that it is real
Unfortunately, that can leave you very open & vunerable to someone who is a skillful manipulator (and don't EVEN get me started in to how this pehnomena plays in to "online" romance )
Does this make you a BAD person, or stupid, or foolish, or anything else? Hell no!
It DOES mean if you know you're someone who tends to love blindly, you should try & either be a little more open eyed, or learn to handle hurt a lot better tho
And find a good network of friends to support you if it doesn't work out
Just maybe try to listen to them if they tell you there's something wrong earlier on

 

[judge not]

Let's be realistic... there is a difference between a lie and a false promise. When my ex said that he was an NYU student, that was a lie. A big one. When he said that he loved me and would always be there for me, that was not a lie. It turned out to be untrue. But he certainly meant it to be true, and did not say it with the anticipation of a big, messy breakup.

Also, a person who lies about one thing will not neccessarily lie about others. I would never lie about an STD or anything equally major. But I will occaisonally lie about something out of consideration, or because something is too godamned personal.

We all hate being lied to... but the world wouldn't be so great if nobody ever lied, either ("actually, your penis is kind of small...."). There needs to be a balance, of some sort, one that is heavily weighted towards the side of honesty.

I like this answer.

Does there come a point in a relationship where nothing at all is too personal anymore? Where the statute of limitations is surpassed on 'baby, that is none of your business'?

I have only been that open with one person. But when I did reach that point of openness, lying about even the simplest thing was not even a consideration.

Yes, that meant if those jeans made her ass look fat, I told her.

Is complete honesty a bad thing?

 

[judge not]

While agreeing with what Bob says about many people being reluctant to divulge everything about their sexual pasts, in your case it was part of a broader pattern
You're right about the "bubble" thing tho
I know at least a few people D) tried to suggest maybe there were problems well before they became apparent to you, but from your position they were hard to see
That's often true when someone is in love...you WILLFULLY overlook things that should be ringing alarm bells because you want to believe in the love & that it is real
Unfortunately, that can leave you very open & vunerable to someone who is a skillful manipulator (and don't EVEN get me started in to how this pehnomena plays in to "online" romance )
Does this make you a BAD person, or stupid, or foolish, or anything else? Hell no!
It DOES mean if you know you're someone who tends to love blindly, you should try & either be a little more open eyed, or learn to handle hurt a lot better tho
And find a good network of friends to support you if it doesn't work out
Just maybe try to listen to them if they tell you there's something wrong earlier on

With all due respect, James. The man in question duped us all. He had an excuse for everything.

A truly dedicated liar is like a truly dedicated adulterer. He will not be caught until he is ready to be caught. I really believe that.

 

[CelticFrog]

You are right on all accounts, judge not.

Just don't get cocky.

I am glad the liar in question here has been rooted out and disposed of.

I would like to mention a rather frustrating situation that is a constant in my relationship. However, it is one that generally makes said relationship stronger once we talk the issues out and resolve them.

My husband can not help lying at times. I say this because his life has been so shrouded in secrecy (forced at that) that sometimes he accidentally lets the wrong things remain a secret. This hurts me. Sometimes deeply. We came to an agreement in December and since then have been consistently working to improve our relationship. It's been working for the most part, but I will admit to being very hurt and confused yesterday when I found he had broken one part of a separate agreement and then didn't tell me. He was gone at the time so I had to wait to confront him on it. The only problem is that I let myself get overly worked up about something that had a simple solution. 'Things' almost got blown out of proportion and that is something I have a problem with.

The reason that is pertinent is this: Sometimes little white lies can be 'turned into' huge fish tales simply by overestimating their importance. Sometimes. Not all the time. And I don't want to hear people saying that what was a fish tale to them was NOT a white lie and I am diminishing true importance, blah blah blah. What I'm trying to say is that at least in my case, in my relationship, I go a little too far off the handle. And a little white lie that could have been resolved and blown over quickly becomes a huge barrier to trust and communication.

Three cents.
Probably didn't make any sense.
Ang

 

[James G 5]

I like this answer.

Does there come a point in a relationship where nothing at all is too personal anymore? Where the statute of limitations is surpassed on 'baby, that is none of your business'?

I have only been that open with one person. But when I did reach that point of openness, lying about even the simplest thing was not even a consideration.

Yes, that meant if those jeans made her ass look fat, I told her.

Is complete honesty a bad thing?

EVERYONE needs some personal space.
And COMPLETE honesty can get to the point of being hurtful (Maybe tell her you think she looks better in her skirt than those jeans since it shows her legs off better LOL)
But too many people have trouble drawing the boundaries, and suspicion of lies leaves too many mistrustful of any private space
It's a tight wire, any way you look at it. So you have to balance your head & heart & ask if what you're getting is worth the possible risk of hurt.

Part of the human condition.