Little Things of Dubbayeh's That Go By Unnoticed

[p_p_man]

I'm trying to make the point that if people don't appreciate what we give them, why give them anything.

Because you give it to them for your own reasons, rarely for their's...

ppman

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Re: Re: Harrasing Bush

Sadamn tomorrow, Iran and North Korea soon, they are going down.

I doubt it. The world learnt long ago that a dictator has to be stopped sooner rather than later...

ppman

 

[70/30]

Sorry I gotta get up at 6 for work tomorrow, I'll go back and sanitise my grammar and sentence structure for you when I get a chance to do so.

 

[Ham Murabi]

Azwed, if you are referring to me--you're acting like I'm not on your side on this issue.

Ham-whatever, we don't send Trojan "extra ribbed supersensitive feel" condoms to them, X-brand only. We do drop millions of fliers over the damn desert to tell the deprived LDC'ers we care about them. Helping them manage their families (most LDC's have a fertility rate exceeding 5.5) maybe would send a more lasting and meaningful message--we care enough to help them help themselves. Sending government missionaries to preach abstinence and not allowing them to mention condoms, frankly is retarded (proselytizing on tax dollars).

I wouldn't send government missionaries, either. If a church and its members want to pay for and send missionaries to teach and preach, fine with me.

 

[70/30]

I wouldn't send government missionaries, either. If a church and its members want to pay for and send missionaries to teach and preach, fine with me.

Look up the HHS and tell me what church Tommy Thompson is the head of. http://www.hhs.gov/asl/testify/t20020213a.html

Edited to add the funds supposed to go to fighting AIDs--were never approved--FY03 started in OCT02--the budget still hasn't been approved. GWB forced the OMB to cut funds--no matter the destination.

 

[teddybear4play]

In the midst of overpopulation, George Bush's administration has recently refused funding to numerous international programs that support the use of contraceptives. I'm not talking about abortions here folks. I'm talking about contraceptives that enable safer sex and limit unwanted pregnancies.

George W. becomes more of an asshole daily, in my mind.

As nice as that program may be, it's my tax dollars that are being used. The United States is not the United Way.

TB4p

 

[Ham Murabi]

Let me guess, you never noticed Bill Clinton never had a foreign crisis and dropped a bomb unless there was a personal crisis (perjury, bimbo eruption, impeachment) in the U.S.

 

[70/30]

I should be asleep---I just had to check out the (de) evolution of the thread. Not surprised. I'll give you what it sounds like to people with the slightest cognitive ability and half a conscience: Luckily, people in Africa are typically brown---when the proper discretion is taken, it is impossible for the diseases they contract to affect people that count.

The HHS and Frist say containing AIDs is important---they think it is important enough to help fund international efforts (the OMB disagrees). Condoms have been known to prevent people from acquiring STDs--anatomical diagrams can be shown, even to the most illiterate. However, religious purveyors on tax payers' dollar have a grandiose bible preaching plan to poor females of LDCs---guess what, guys are still prone to sleep around.

A self-respecting female in a supposed LTR that has met with western health officials, should have been advised that condoms are an option--even if their partner still claims to be eternally committed. The HHS doesn't allow condoms to be mentioned by government-funded operatives (no matter how minimally), only abstinence and remaining faithful.

Please find a method of preaching that prevents the overwhelming majority of guys (16-26) not to be horny 23.5hours a day. I do believe TB--if you saw LittleKat in person wearing an oversized sweatsuit, you'd still make a big mess. She has the background and upbringing to be able to tell scummy guys to "look into my soul, that's who I am".

Well, it is likely an equally attractive female in Somalia with zero education and a chronic empty stomach, has no clue what a soul or the phrase "if your flower is plucked, you'll live in eternal damnation in the firey pits of hell" means.

 

[Azwed]

Re: Re: Little Things of Dubbayeh's That Go By Unnoticed

As nice as that program may be, it's my tax dollars that are being used. The United States is not the United Way.

TB4p

Pay for it now or pay for it later you decide.

Right now our official Govt foreign Aid is about 0.1 Percent of GDP.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...ode=&contentId=A43761-2002Nov26&notFound=true

Thats 10-15 billion dollars according to the above article.
Right around a single squadron of Stealth Bombers since they cost just over a billion dollars a piece.

http://www.cbpp.org/4-25-00bud.htm


Here is another article that shows Aid related to GDP over time.
Remember that foreign Aid includes military aid, military aid is what makes up most of the aid the US gives out, and most of our aid goes to Egypt and Israel.

Pay close attention to the bars for the years 1985 and 1986. I am pretty sure those two bars represent the massive amounts of aid we sent to Iraq under the Reagan administration.


This table is C&P right from the report. Bold is mine.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
U.S. Official Development Assistance Compared to Other Countries
1997-1998


ODA as a share of the economy
United States-----------------------------Typical Donor Country*
0.09%---------------------------------------------0.30%

ODA per person in the donor country

$29-----------------------------------------$70

* Typical Donor Country figures represent the median levels of the 20 countries other than the United States examined by the OECD
Source: Development Co-Operation, 1999 Report, OECD, 2000

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are telling me you can't afford 29 dollars? I have seen various reports saying how much of that 29 dollars goes to military aid but not many people can agree on an exact number. Probably around half or so is military aid. I am not saying military aid is not important just that you never see anyone complaining about the money we sent to help the militaries in other countries.

How much of that 29 dollars goes to planned parent hood and other organizations that are trying to educate women? Yes, thats right these organizations educate women as well as provide birth control assistance. So are you against educating women?

According to this article here, that seems to be well cited and have good solid polling data, the US spends just 450 million dollars on family planning aid in other countries. That comes out to about 86 cents a person.

Hmhh I think i have 86 cents lying around here somewhere. Yup I do hell I will even toss in another 86 cents to make up for you since you don't care about these people. Does that make you feel better that you saved 86 cents?

http://www.americans-world.org/digest/global_issues/population/population2.cfm

Thats less then the price of one F-22 Raptor. The run around the 650 million dollar range.
More articles


http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/jul98/23_13_097.html
http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/news/opeds/sachs_world_safer_wp_112101.htm

Overpopulation and the poverty that it creates is one of the main reasons that LDC's are in such bad shape. Go read
The Ends of the Earth By Kaplan to try and get a better understanding of what massive overpopulation is.

I don't agree with everything Kaplan says but his descriptions of the massive shanty towns that surround most large cities in Africa and Southeast Asia are chilling.

These cities have real populations that are twice that of New York City.

Humans just can't function with a population density that high.

 

[teddybear4play]

I do believe TB--if you saw LittleKat in person wearing an oversized sweatsuit, you'd still make a big mess.

I do believe this is the first statement of yours I'd be inclined to agree with.

TB4p

 

[ullr]

In the midst of overpopulation, George Bush's administration has recently refused funding to numerous international programs that support the use of contraceptives. I'm not talking about abortions here folks. I'm talking about contraceptives that enable safer sex and limit unwanted pregnancies.

George W. becomes more of an asshole daily, in my mind.

How churlish.
Your opinion excepted, the world's population growth is destined to end at the LOW end of recent estimates, around 10 billion or less--and then decline. That's with or without our coerced monies being given to international ingrates.

If you want to see the future, look at Europe--the oldest median ages in the wolrd are found there in country's like Italy and Spain today. Italian "culture," as we know it today, could well disappear in the second-half of the 21st century.

But the US will keep growing for the foreseeable future, beyond 500 million in mid-century.

All will be well.

--Orson

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

70/30. Your posts are very clear and well written. I don't know why there's confusion.

The program in Uganda sounds like a grand success. I'm glad that there's a program like that. Is the US paying for it?

It's a matter of what choices we make with the (limited money) that we have.

1) Senior citizens want drugs paid for....(new commitments)
2) We want to increase funding to schools in the US...improve ALL schools..no child left behind
3) Families with little children are complaining about the amounts of taxes they have to pay so there's a proposal to increase dependent deductions
4) Provide birth control options to countries that, for the most part, complain that we interfere too much anyway.
5) Greater control of our business environment to prevent Enron type things
6) Greater security, including federalize the security at airports
7) Farm subsidies..including the agricultural demands in the northwest (vs...dams and salmon).
8) Many other additional demands...training, extending unemployment benefits...stimulate the economy...etc.

Someone mentioned $29 extra for this...for that...add all these things up and now you're talking 20x $29...where do you draw the line? (Keeping in mind that for every $ you take out in taxes, you retard the economy and people loose jobs).

I hope that someone else takes up the mantle that the program in Uganda started...but I don't think we can pay for everything for everyone.

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

Re: Re: Little Things of Dubbayeh's That Go By Unnoticed

How churlish.
Your opinion excepted, the world's population growth is destined to end at the LOW end of recent estimates, around 10 billion or less--and then decline. That's with or without our coerced monies being given to international ingrates.

If you want to see the future, look at Europe--the oldest median ages in the wolrd are found there in country's like Italy and Spain today. Italian "culture," as we know it today, could well disappear in the second-half of the 21st century.

But the US will keep growing for the foreseeable future, beyond 500 million in mid-century.

All will be well.

--Orson

Our growth is not due to births, rather it is due to immigration. Personally, I like immigration, I think these daring people are adding to our culture....I just mention this as an important data point.

 

[RastaPope]

What's the problem? Let them overpopulate and then not send food aid. They'll starve and their numbers will decline.


Problem solved.

If they're too stupid to not fuck, well, fuck 'em.

 

[RastaPope]

Re: Re: Re: Little Things of Dubbayeh's That Go By Unnoticed

Our growth is not due to births, rather it is due to immigration. Personally, I like immigration, I think these daring people are adding to our culture....I just mention this as an important data point.

Immigration is fine and dandy, though we should limit numbers from specific countries/regions. Seriously.

 

[lavender]

Almost everyone in this thread is being terribly short sighted - terribly so.

Thanks for your post Azwed.

I understand those who feel we shouldn't spend money on foreign aid, but what I think many fail to see is how the money spent on foreign aid actually helps the United States.

George Bush isn't cutting off this aid because of money. Don't you get that? George Bush is cutting off of this aid because its connection to reproductive choice. He is essentially bowing down to pressures from the religious right with respect to this issue.

This is not about money, this is about women's rights and education. This is not about our massive foreign aid budget, this is about creating an environment in which people are sexually educated and can engage in safe sex.

The whole "tell 'em to stop fucking" argument is racist, classist, and flies in the face of American law and international human rights. Why? One might ask.

Let's analyze the history of procreative choice in America. For years birth control was illegal in this country. Why? Because there was a dominant view by religious organizations that any activity that would prevent the creation of a child was an abomination to God. Additionally, moralists in our country never wanted to think of the idea of a woman having sex merely for pleasure. For centuries, people didn't even acknowledge that women could actually enjoy sex. The moral view was that people should only engage in sexual activity for the primary purpose of procreation. All other sex was unclean.

Slowly, due to medical reasons, our law began expanding. However, it was first only provided for married couples. It wasn't until within the last 30 years that contraceptives for unmarried couples were found to be constitutionally protected in our right of privacy.

Although many cloak this in health reasons, the true reason for the legalization of birth control, is that women have just as much of a right to enjoy sex as men.

Tell them to stop fucking. That's rich. How would you like some dominant country to come into the United States or Canada, say we know you can't afford birth control, we're not going to help you at all - so stop fucking.

I think you people would get plenty pissed if the only type of sex you could have was totally unsafe and could end up in an unwanted child.

But the impact of not having contraceptives in staggering. A child or a disease has a huge a person's socioeconomic status. It can keep a person down, send them into poverty, or if they are already there, make their situation much worse.

*shakes head*

I should quit before I get to beligerent about this.

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

Who are we to dictate to any other country what choices they make for reproduction. It would probably be in our long term interest to slow reproductive rates through most of the world...but they should be free to make their own choices and not be subject to us telling them what we think they ought to do.

 

[lavender]

Who are we to dictate to any other country what choices they make for reproduction. It would probably be in our long term interest to slow reproductive rates through most of the world...but they should be free to make their own choices and not be subject to us telling them what we think they ought to do.

LTGR, most of the countries absolutely welcome our assistance in this area.

 

[zipman]

Almost everyone in this thread is being terribly short sighted - terribly so.

Thanks for your post Azwed.

I understand those who feel we shouldn't spend money on foreign aid, but what I think many fail to see is how the money spent on foreign aid actually helps the United States.

George Bush isn't cutting off this aid because of money. Don't you get that? George Bush is cutting off of this aid because its connection to reproductive choice. He is essentially bowing down to pressures from the religious right with respect to this issue.

This is not about money, this is about women's rights and education. This is not about our massive foreign aid budget, this is about creating an environment in which people are sexually educated and can engage in safe sex.

The whole "tell 'em to stop fucking" argument is racist, classist, and flies in the face of American law and international human rights. Why? One might ask.

Let's analyze the history of procreative choice in America. For years birth control was illegal in this country. Why? Because there was a dominant view by religious organizations that any activity that would prevent the creation of a child was an abomination to God. Additionally, moralists in our country never wanted to think of the idea of a woman having sex merely for pleasure. For centuries, people didn't even acknowledge that women could actually enjoy sex. The moral view was that people should only engage in sexual activity for the primary purpose of procreation. All other sex was unclean.

Slowly, due to medical reasons, our law began expanding. However, it was first only provided for married couples. It wasn't until within the last 30 years that contraceptives for unmarried couples were found to be constitutionally protected in our right of privacy.

Although many cloak this in health reasons, the true reason for the legalization of birth control, is that women have just as much of a right to enjoy sex as men.

Tell them to stop fucking. That's rich. How would you like some dominant country to come into the United States or Canada, say we know you can't afford birth control, we're not going to help you at all - so stop fucking.

I think you people would get plenty pissed if the only type of sex you could have was totally unsafe and could end up in an unwanted child.

But the impact of not having contraceptives in staggering. A child or a disease has a huge a person's socioeconomic status. It can keep a person down, send them into poverty, or if they are already there, make their situation much worse.

*shakes head*

I should quit before I get to beligerent about this.

The reality of the situation is that you can throw all the money and education at third world countries with exploding populations and still not do a thing to change the reproductive rates.

The reasons are more cultural than economic or educational. While we can see the effects that it has, they often do not care about that.

 

[Azwed]

Its a brick wall they are too close minded to ever even attempt to look into this as a good idea.

I didn't want to get into the reasons you stated lavy because i figured people would just start bitching that I was bashing bush and the relgious right.

Numbers are always better hard evidence.

LGTR you don't seem to understand.

That 29 dollars per person was for all foreign aid and most of that aid goes to the militaries in Egypt and Israel.

Only 86 cents goes to any form of reproductive education.

This of course only counts public aid given by the govt and not any private donations.

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

Its a brick wall they are too close minded to ever even attempt to look into this as a good idea.

I didn't want to get into the reasons you stated lavy because i figured people would just start bitching that I was bashing bush and the relgious right.

Numbers are always better hard evidence.

LGTR you don't seem to understand.

That 29 dollars per person was for all foreign aid and most of that aid goes to the militaries in Egypt and Israel.

Only 86 cents goes to any form of reproductive education.

This of course only counts public aid given by the govt and not any private donations.

You're right, I didn't read close enough...but the other "requests" for money are still "competing" with the foreign aid.

I think it would be great if they could get enough donations to run the program and have it provide the support as an independent entity and not a US Government funded effort.

 

[Azwed]

You're right, I didn't read close enough...but the other "requests" for money are still "competing" with the foreign aid.

I think it would be great if they could get enough donations to run the program and have it provide the support as an independent entity and not a US Government funded effort.

There are private donations that support many humanitarian efforts in other countries but most of them are religious organizations and they aren't going to touch sexual issues.

There are other NGO's(Non-Governmental Organizations) like Planned Parenthood that deal with sexual issues but since they normaly discuss abortion they are subject to the "Global Gag Order" and cannot recieve Federal Funding.

Another very legitimate concern that many people have about foreign aid is that it will be misused by corrupt government officials. In most of these countries where there is no elected government and freedom of the press is limited at best this is a real concern.


Taking this aspect of foreign aid abuse into account lets seperate foreign aid into several types based on who the end user of the aid is.


First type of aid would be aid that is given directly to foreign governments. This type of aid would be mostly military and economic aid. Foreign exchange credits given to countries so that they can by US goods, or other countries goods, would also fall into this category. Credits are a much safer way to provide foreign aid since it helps both the giver and reciever of aid.

Second type of aid would FDI(Foreign Direct Investment) that is given to companies and corporations operating in other countries. Much of this aid is private but some of it is government aid as well.

Third type of aid is given to NGO's by the government and private donations. The Red Cross, Planned Parenthood, Amnesty International, Doctors Without Borders and The Peace Corps are all examples of NGO's like this.

This is a bit of an oversimplification of the entire system but it will do for this purpose.

By looking at these three different types which one do you think is most at risk for abuse?

 

[eagleyez]

In the midst of overpopulation, George Bush's administration has recently refused funding to numerous international programs that support the use of contraceptives. I'm not talking about abortions here folks. I'm talking about contraceptives that enable safer sex and limit unwanted pregnancies.

George W. becomes more of an asshole daily, in my mind.

One can only hope that he keeps going out and making speeches like the Michigan Affirmative Action gem, or his dumbeddown diatribe today regarding the "so-called" inspectors, the Iraq situation, etc. Karl Rove will have him hidden in the white house in no time. His numbers continue to slide.

I agree, his true asswipeness is shining thru more with each passing day.

The scary thing is to imagine what a cro-magnon he will become when he doesn't have to worry about re-election. Grab your anlkes folks...and point your ass hard right.

 

[Azwed]

I am trying to find a transcript of bush's speech today at the anti-choice rally but I can't seem to find one.

 

[Azwed]

Found it and it even has an audio function.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030122-3.html

President Speaks at Right for Life 2003 Rally on the Mall
Remarks by the President to the Right for Life 2003 Rally on the National Mall Via Telephone From St. Louis, Missouri


Audio


11:05 A.M. CST

THE PRESIDENT: Well, thank you, Nellie. I want to thank you very much for including me in the celebration of life. I want to thank the good folks there on the Mall today. I'm calling you from St. Louis, Missouri. I know there are some from Missouri there and, like many others, you've made great sacrifices to come to Washington today. A lot of you have ridden buses all night long and I know you're braving the cold. And I admire your perseverance and I admire your devotion to the cause of life.

You all are gathered today on the National Mall, which is not far from the monument to Thomas Jefferson who, as you all know, is author of our Declaration of Independence. And the March for Life upholds the self-evident truth of that Declaration -- that all are created equal, given the unalienable rights of life, and liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And that principle of America needs defenders in every place and every generation.

In our time, respect for the right to life calls us to defend the sick and the dying, persons with disabilities and birth defects, and all who are weak and vulnerable. And this self-evident truth calls us to value and to protect the lives of innocent children waiting to be born. (Applause.)

You and I share a commitment to building a culture of life in America, and we're making progress. As the President, I have signed the Born Alive Infants Protection Act, opposed the destruction of embryos for stem cell research, and refused to spend taxpayer money on international programs that promote abortion overseas. (Applause.)

MS. GRAY: Thank you.

THE PRESIDENT: My administration is challenging the Oregon law that permits physician-assisted suicide. (Applause.)

MS. GRAY: Thank you.

THE PRESIDENT: We support abstinence education, and crisis pregnancy programs, and parental notification laws. We offer compassionate alternatives to abortion by promoting adoption and extending state health care coverage for unborn children.

My hope is that the United States Congress will pass a bill this year banning partial-birth abortion, which I will sign. (Applause.) Partial-birth abortion is an abhorrent procedure that offends human dignity. I also urge the Congress to ban all human cloning. We must not create life to destroy life. Human beings are not research material to be used in a cruel and reckless experiment. (Applause.) For 30 years, the March for Life has been sustained by constant prayer and abiding hope, that one day, every child will be born into a family that loves that child and a nation that protects that child. And when that day arrives, you will have the gratitude of millions -- especially those who know the gift of life because you cared and you kept faith. May God bless you all and may God continue to bless America.

MS. GRAY: Thank you, Mr. President.

END 12:08 P.M. EST