Litiquette VI

[Daisy_Love]

So here comes today’s question, brought to you by yesterday’s discussion.

We talked about limitations vs the idea we can do anything. Well, which is it?

I hear my friends tell their kids they can do or be anything they want. In my mind, I’m thinking, “They’re giving a lot of hope to a future barista.”

How realistic should we be about potential? Or our natural gifts? Can we do anything or be anything we want to be, if we work hard enough?


I’m No Superman by Lazlo Blane

https://youtu.be/3xl2sAypyMg

Encouraging and motivating your children to be the best they can be is something every parent should do. Your children mirror your behaviour from a really early age. But along with encouraging and motivating comes realistic expectations but at the same time no one wants to dull anyone’s dream. There is a huge pressure on young people to be the best, look the best, get the degree, make good money etc etc not everyone is a leader, not everyone will be an academic, not everyone will be a top earner. I think it’s dangerous ground to tell someone “we can be anything we want to be if we work hard enough” because when that goal isn’t realistic for that person huge disappointment can follow.

I’ve worked in young people’s mental health and seen first hand where kids have felt extremely pressured to be the best, be a high achiever but when that isn’t realistic for them it can have serious consequences.

Everyone has potential to do something meaningful with their life, money doesn’t particularly bring happiness, being content within your own self brings happiness.

 

[Cthulhu1138]

Stick around. I’ll be dropping my twerking video shortly.

Not enough X chromosomes to suit my interests, but I can see that your work will.be greatly appreciated by others.

 

[Cthulhu1138]

I went to college as one of the first people in my family to do so.

I spent several years watching my father get passed over for promotions and raises because he did not have the engineering degree men younger than him did.

He taught himself AutoCAD because otherwise he was out of a job.

He and my mother both thought education was a way for me to have a better life than they did.

Full disclosure: my father is super vague, and a bit of a dick but he is a good engineer. My mother had mental health problems but had great interpersonal skills when she needed to use them.

I did not graduate college with the degree I originally intended, and I did not follow a career path that I anticipated.

But my advisor was quite correct that my liberal arts education taught me not only how to think analytically but more importantly how to communicate how I thought succinctly and clearly.

I may not wear a suit or make six figures, but my crew know what I want from them and my boss understands why I run my department the way that I do.

Much of that is down to learning how to organize and express my thoughts.

So... Yay college?

 

[hotwords229_A]

Too many people to quote today. My quick take:

I would (and do) discourage kids from going to college. Learn life first, figure out what you want to be and then go for it. Trades will lead to a happier life for most. <—my biased opinion.

I think it’s all about managing expectations. You start every project with an idea of perfection and then, as you work on it, you have to make some compromises. It’s how everything in life works. But you keep chipping away at it and eventually finish and it may not be exactly what you started out for, but you got to an acceptable outcome. Life is exactly the same.

So when you tell a kid “You can be anything you want” and they say “I want to be The Hulk” you think, “Okay, maybe we can focus on science, bodybuilding, anger management (Social Worker), or comic book drawing” and you go from there.

“You can be anything you want” is simply a starting point.

 

[tnman03]

Why do you need a towel?!?




I know a lot of trades people who make way more money than people with multiple degrees. Are the jobs hotter or dirtier? Yeah. Sometimes. But the work is often much more recession proof. It’s always needed.

For some reason, we’ve put pressure on people to get lots of degrees. Sometimes in useless fields. It’s okay to get a degree in basket weaving if you know the salary and number of jobs available. But people go to school and learn this shit and sometimes it’s useless. And they’re sad when they don’t start out at $70k year.




I hear there are lots of dicks there. Literally and figuratively.

It's totally ok to get a degree in any major that interests you so long as your fully aware of the fact that you'll be paying for it for a significant portion of your life. So choosing wisely on a said academic pathway without good career prospects might be more prudent if you've already got a good job or career, yes?

And it's a shame that the US doesn't have the apprenticeships and high school trades programs it once had. Because you're quite right, many skilled trades pay exceptionally well. Entrepreneurial types not adverse to risk or failure also often succeed because they keep trying.

And JJ is smart and capable enough that she can easily go to college, have guys all twitterpated over her, graduate, and do quite well for herself too.

 

[parker77]

Totally agree on this. I bang this drum all the time. My BF has a GED and I have a Master’s degree in a high-demand field, we are the same age— he makes more than I do.

I’ve always hated the “everyone should go to college” mantra. Totally decimates the self esteem of a kid that needs a bachelors in poli-sci like a hole in the head, but would make an excellent welder/mechanic/hair dresser/entrepreneur etc.

I’ve got more to say. I’ll be back later. I have new tropical fruit trees that need attention

without deeply engaging in the college debate (by the way, yet another matter on which i agree with you), i'm going to interject here that i would argue you're the more successful of the two of you; all those people whose lives you've changed - immeasurable success.

 

[JerseyJade]

And JJ is smart and capable enough that she can easily go to college, have guys all twitterpated over her, graduate, and do quite well for herself too.

I do love the confidence you have in me, tnman. I would love to go to college and get a teaching degree. Maybe some day.

 

[Cthulhu1138]

It's totally ok to get a degree in any major that interests you so long as your fully aware of the fact that you'll be paying for it for a significant portion of your life.

twitterpated

You deserve an internet high five!



Also, my rant earlier was not to advocate that everyone should attend college.

Were I advocating for anything, 'twould be for a higher education system that was free or so much more affordable than it currently is and would encompass the teaching of worthy, important vocational skills like engine mechanics, carpentry, plumbing, and horticulture.

Just about every job requires skill and we should not be punishing people for learning them.

 

[Trekka]

So here comes today’s question, brought to you by yesterday’s discussion.

We talked about limitations vs the idea we can do anything. Well, which is it?

I hear my friends tell their kids they can do or be anything they want. In my mind, I’m thinking, “They’re giving a lot of hope to a future barista.”

How realistic should we be about potential? Or our natural gifts? Can we do anything or be anything we want to be, if we work hard enough?


I’m No Superman by Lazlo Blane

https://youtu.be/3xl2sAypyMg

My daughter is 8. She used to want to be a singer, then a dancer. Then it was hair stylist. And now it’s NASA mission control. Go for it, mama says.

Stepson on the other hand— we help him count down the years until he can legally drop out, and have looked into what hoops we’d need to jump through to make that happen.

Both seem enthused and inspired by these vastly different conversations. So I think it’s specific to each kid. I think the kids are well aware of their own strengths and limitations. I try to encourage their strengths and nurture their sometimes ever changing interests. I try to give them perspective on their weaknesses, big picture stuff.

Meanwhile, I’m human myself with my own set of strengths and weaknesses. It’s funny, I don’t think I spend much time pondering the meaning, or acquisition, of success. Probably because I’ve fucked up enough to realize that mistakes can turn into big wins if they’re treated as growth opportunities.

I just try to do my best, and sometimes I do my “that’s good enough,” and sometimes I get the fuck-it’s. Not being perfect is okay. Being a superstar is okay too. Knowing that deep in my core = success.

Do anything if I work hard enough? Maybe. Can’t I just be a decent-ish artist, cook, linguist, astrologer (lol)? I aspire to be a successful mom- i’d like a happy (alive) kid who’s a productive member of society. I also know that that outcome doesn’t always happen, despite our best parental efforts.

So I don’t really hold my breath for anything. I can’t say I go with the flow- because that would be a lie! But I accept that I may put forth a huge effort, and wind up with a huge disappointment. Or a delightful experience. Depends on what the universe has in mind for me, at the end of the day.

I like hustling. I wither and die inside if I don’t have much to do, or a goal I’m working towards.

But the end point is always nebulous, often a moving target, and it’s more about the journey. I try to transmit that energy to my kids, namely by living it, not by espousing it.

Semi related: Im thinking of talladega nights - every morning I wake up and I piss excellence

 

[Pervy_Sage]

Success is a mindset.

That's a real mindfuck for me.

I can often fall victim to measuring success by money or really impressive titles, but that's only one measure. I've stopped measuring others and measuring up to others and life has become much more pleasurable.

When kids are told they can do anything, there is an element of truth to that but there's a huge "and" hidden in there. We're not created equal. We're not all suited for the same things. We all have unique MOs and approaches to problem solving. If we work against our natural inclinations we're going to get stressed. If we work with them we're going to feel less stress, even invigorated. This is true not only in work, but all things in life. We can all do whatever we want, but there are consequences.

I'm all for setting goals, dreaming big and going for it. But, I also want people to know if they would rather sit at home and garden, that's ok too.

This pressure to always be hustling is toxic.

You said this in ways I couldn’t verbalize. I feel it in my heart. As an artist, sometimes I measure success by others consuming what I create, and when there’s no desire for it, my work feels like failure. I tell my students that they can be whatever they are supposed to be, and do everything that they have the passion to grind for. To embrace failure and the lessons for growth that it teaches. Dream
Big and fail big.

 

[Pervy_Sage]

My daughter is 8. She used to want to be a singer, then a dancer. Then it was hair stylist. And now it’s NASA mission control. Go for it, mama says.

Stepson on the other hand— we help him count down the years until he can legally drop out, and have looked into what hoops we’d need to jump through to make that happen.

Both seem enthused and inspired by these vastly different conversations. So I think it’s specific to each kid. I think the kids are well aware of their own strengths and limitations. I try to encourage their strengths and nurture their sometimes ever changing interests. I try to give them perspective on their weaknesses, big picture stuff.

Meanwhile, I’m human myself with my own set of strengths and weaknesses. It’s funny, I don’t think I spend much time pondering the meaning, or acquisition, of success. Probably because I’ve fucked up enough to realize that mistakes can turn into big wins if they’re treated as growth opportunities.

I just try to do my best, and sometimes I do my “that’s good enough,” and sometimes I get the fuck-it’s. Not being perfect is okay. Being a superstar is okay too. Knowing that deep in my core = success.

Do anything if I work hard enough? Maybe. Can’t I just be a decent-ish artist, cook, linguist, astrologer (lol)? I aspire to be a successful mom- i’d like a happy (alive) kid who’s a productive member of society. I also know that that outcome doesn’t always happen, despite our best parental efforts.

So I don’t really hold my breath for anything. I can’t say I go with the flow- because that would be a lie! But I accept that I may put forth a huge effort, and wind up with a huge disappointment. Or a delightful experience. Depends on what the universe has in mind for me, at the end of the day.

I like hustling. I wither and die inside if I don’t have much to do, or a goal I’m working towards.

But the end point is always nebulous, often a moving target, and it’s more about the journey. I try to transmit that energy to my kids, namely by living it, not by espousing it.

Semi related: Im thinking of talladega nights - every morning I wake up and I piss excellence

This post is why I absolutely think you’re the bee’s knees.

 

[Pervy_Sage]

without deeply engaging in the college debate (by the way, yet another matter on which i agree with you), i'm going to interject here that i would argue you're the more successful of the two of you; all those people whose lives you've changed - immeasurable success.

I see where you’re coming from Park, but from another perspective, people with service-type careers..HVAC for example, also change lives by improving quality of life. It’s not in the same way as teaching it counseling, etc...but every stone cast in positive waters have positive ripple effects.

 

[Trekka]

Too many people to quote today. My quick take:

I would (and do) discourage kids from going to college. Learn life first, figure out what you want to be and then go for it. Trades will lead to a happier life for most. <—my biased opinion.

I think it’s all about managing expectations. You start every project with an idea of perfection and then, as you work on it, you have to make some compromises. It’s how everything in life works. But you keep chipping away at it and eventually finish and it may not be exactly what you started out for, but you got to an acceptable outcome. Life is exactly the same.

So when you tell a kid “You can be anything you want” and they say “I want to be The Hulk” you think, “Okay, maybe we can focus on science, bodybuilding, anger management (Social Worker), or comic book drawing” and you go from there.

“You can be anything you want” is simply a starting point.

Dude, I think we said the same thing, at the same time, but with different words. Are we related?

without deeply engaging in the college debate (by the way, yet another matter on which i agree with you), i'm going to interject here that i would argue you're the more successful of the two of you; all those people whose lives you've changed - immeasurable success.

That’s debatable- what metric are we using to measure success? How many people has he employed, with benefits, who can’t get a job at McD’s because they made some mistakes in a former life? How many times has he answered the phone in the middle of the night, no questions asked, to talk to a newly sober guy who’s about to stick a needle back in his arm?

My line of work makes an impact, I hope, on others. So does his. And there’s a lot of extracurriculars we both participate in that, I hope, make a positive impact, that can’t really be quantified... there’s no yardstick to measure spiritual deposits in the bank.

You said this in ways I couldn’t verbalize. I feel it in my heart. As an artist, sometimes I measure success by others consuming what I create, and when there’s no desire for it, my work feels like failure. I tell my students that they can be whatever they are supposed to be, and do everything that they have the passion to grind for. To embrace failure and the lessons for growth that it teaches. Dream
Big and fail big.

Yes!
I like the quote “Fall down seven times, stand up eight.”

 

[parker77]

I see where you’re coming from Park, but from another perspective, people with service-type careers..HVAC for example, also change lives by improving quality of life. It’s not in the same way as teaching it counseling, etc...but every stone cast in positive waters have positive ripple effects.

My line of work makes an impact, I hope, on others. So does his. And there’s a lot of extracurriculars we both participate in that, I hope, make a positive impact, that can’t really be quantified... there’s no yardstick to measure spiritual deposits in the bank.

of course you're right. maybe my point moreover is the comparison of your paychecks isn't the only or perhaps best metric?

 

[aussiegeekygal]

of course you're right. maybe my point moreover is the comparison of your paychecks isn't the only or perhaps best metric?

Good point.

I think that's true for all of us.

Money is a terrible indicator of almost everything, including "success".

 

[parker77]

Money is a terrible indicator of almost everything, including "success".

but so easy to get caught up in. i know i've been guilty of it. it's a weakness.

 

[aussiegeekygal]

but so easy to get caught up in. i know i've been guilty of it. it's a weakness.

Me, too my friend. Me too.

 

[Pervy_Sage]

Me, too my friend. Me too.

Same. Ohhhhhhh same. Especially when you have none to speak of. Lok

 

[aussiegeekygal]

Same. Ohhhhhhh same. Especially when you have none to speak of. Lok

I've been "rich" and simultaneously broke more times than I can count.

 

[Pervy_Sage]

I've been "rich" and simultaneously broke more times than I can count.

Happy Friday, everyone.

 

[SassySheDevil]

You said this in ways I couldn’t verbalize. I feel it in my heart. As an artist, sometimes I measure success by others consuming what I create, and when there’s no desire for it, my work feels like failure. I tell my students that they can be whatever they are supposed to be, and do everything that they have the passion to grind for. To embrace failure and the lessons for growth that it teaches. Dream
Big and fail big.

This is something I wish I'd have been taught more. To embrace failures.

 

[Booboobear84]

Totally agree on this. I bang this drum all the time. My BF has a GED and I have a Master’s degree in a high-demand field, we are the same age— he makes more than I do.

I’ve always hated the “everyone should go to college” mantra. Totally decimates the self esteem of a kid that needs a bachelors in poli-sci like a hole in the head, but would make an excellent welder/mechanic/hair dresser/entrepreneur etc.

I’ve got more to say. I’ll be back later. I have new tropical fruit trees that need attention

Preach it. I live in Boston where you are defined by what school you went to. My entire family was in the trades except for me (because, If I made a living with my hands, I would starve). My neighborhood is filled with folks who wouldn't have their kids attend vocational school, who apparently don't notice what they pay for plumbers or electricians (I also note that plumbers do more public health than doctors given the disaster that water born diseases can be). This just drives me crazy (yeah, it's a short drive). We need to give these folks a lot more respect.

 

[Lord Pmann]

I work in electrical engineering. Among the projects and people with whom I work, I manage a group of people that, if you look at them, you’d think they were carnies. However, after about 4-5 years when they are through with their apprenticeship, the guys make six figures. So you’ve got a 23-24 year old guy, no college degree making $100k a year. Many of them go work temporarily in California and make absurd amounts of money- $200-300k in a year. It’s hard work. And it’s dangerous. At the end of some days, they come home and they’re filthy. If they want to quit, they do so and they have a job the next day. I’ve never seen one out of work who wanted to work.

These are guys that are amazing at working with their hands. They’re problem solvers and fixers. But they’re not classroom guys. They don’t speak with eloquence. Someone would’ve done a disservice pushing these guys to college. But I’ll be damned if they’re not as hard working and smart as the engineers or people who manage them.

 

[Trekka]

I work in electrical engineering. Among the projects and people with whom I work, I manage a group of people that, if you look at them, you’d think they were carnies. However, after about 4-5 years when they are through with their apprenticeship, the guys make six figures. So you’ve got a 23-24 year old guy, no college degree making $100k a year. Many of them go work temporarily in California and make absurd amounts of money- $200-300k in a year. It’s hard work. And it’s dangerous. At the end of some days, they come home and they’re filthy. If they want to quit, they do so and they have a job the next day. I’ve never seen one out of work who wanted to work.

These are guys that are amazing at working with their hands. They’re problem solvers and fixers. But they’re not classroom guys. They don’t speak with eloquence. Someone would’ve done a disservice pushing these guys to college. But I’ll be damned if they’re not as hard working and smart as the engineers or people who manage them.

Fuck, you’re turning me on.

 

[Pervy_Sage]

I work in electrical engineering. Among the projects and people with whom I work, I manage a group of people that, if you look at them, you’d think they were carnies. However, after about 4-5 years when they are through with their apprenticeship, the guys make six figures. So you’ve got a 23-24 year old guy, no college degree making $100k a year. Many of them go work temporarily in California and make absurd amounts of money- $200-300k in a year. It’s hard work. And it’s dangerous. At the end of some days, they come home and they’re filthy. If they want to quit, they do so and they have a job the next day. I’ve never seen one out of work who wanted to work.

These are guys that are amazing at working with their hands. They’re problem solvers and fixers. But they’re not classroom guys. They don’t speak with eloquence. Someone would’ve done a disservice pushing these guys to college. But I’ll be damned if they’re not as hard working and smart as the engineers or people who manage them.

I wish I had the intelligence of many trade workers. If schools weren’t so focused on testing and scores set forth by legislators, we could do a much better job of identifying kids’ strengths and helping them be successful in them.