Liberal Left Wing Supreme Court Strikes Down Property Rights!

amicus

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Liberal Supreme Court Strikes Down Property Rights!



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/23/AR2005062300783_pf.html


“…WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Supreme Court on Thursday ruled that local governments may seize people's homes and businesses -- even against their will -- for private economic development.

It was a decision fraught with huge implications for a country with many areas, particularly the rapidly growing urban and suburban areas, facing countervailing pressures of development and property ownership rights.

The 5-4 ruling represented a defeat for some Connecticut residents whose homes are slated for destruction to make room for an office complex. They argued that cities have no right to take their land except for projects with a clear public use, such as roads or schools, or to revitalize blighted areas.

As a result, cities have wide power to bulldoze residences for projects such as shopping malls and hotel complexes to generate tax revenue.

Local officials, not federal judges, know best in deciding whether a development project will benefit the community, justices said.
"The city has carefully formulated an economic development that it believes will provide appreciable benefits to the community, including -- but by no means limited to -- new jobs and increased tax revenue," Justice John Paul Stevens wrote for the majority.

He was joined by Justice Anthony Kennedy, David H. Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen G. Breyer...”

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/23/scotus.property.ap/

The five above named Left Wing Justices of the United States Supreme Court dealt a tremendous blow to the constitutionally guaranteed right of a citizen to privately own and dispose of property in the United States.

There are over 10,000 other such cases currently in litigation and this ruling will have a tremendous impact on property owners across the nation.

Having a small knowledge of the subject, let me offer a scenario I watched unfold in a small western town.

Many towns and cities of varying size, find the older section of the downtown area often degrades as business and residential growth occurs away from the city center.

Over the years, a series of Federal, State and local grant money has become available to those cities to renovate the down town area.

It requires the formation of an association of city, county and state officials, Mayors, city councils, Port Authorities, School Districts and other tax funded public bodies to coordinate and apply for grants.

It also requires the participation of business and property owners in the blighted area, to cooperate and coordinate on the particular renovation procedures to be undertaken and the amount of money to be spent.

For nearly a generation, a ‘liberal’ coalition of environmentalists, greens, preservationists and anti industry groups, have participated in these inner city projects.

The civic association holds meetings and makes suggestions as to improvements, taxation and bond creation to provide a ‘matching’ level of funds for the grants they seeks.

Up until the Supreme Court Decision, individual property owners could, ‘opt out’ of the association and not participate.

Usually these newly created ‘old town areas’ are renovated only to ‘non intrusive’ businesses: no pollution, no increase in traffic, more green or park-like areas. This translates to mainly service industries of small boutique like shops, art galleries, Latte dinettes, doll shops, antique shops, all the artsy fartsy ventures the left wing glorifies in.

So, the money is spent to renew streets and sidewalks and fancy street lighting, taxes are raised on the local businesses and property owners and the buildings remain empty as they are not economically solid business ventures. Just the dreams of wild eyed liberals gazing myopically through rose colored glasses.

Up until now, that ‘Renovation Association’ had no power to ‘force’ property owners to go along with the plans they created.

With the new law, now those ‘economic groups’ can decide that any piece of property can be taken by ‘eminent domain laws’ and used as the ‘group’ sees fit.

Eminent domain is a reasonable law that allows the construction of large projects such as highway systems and dams by giving government to seize the needed property as long as compensation is given the individual property owner.

This new law is a travesty and if there is a way to impeach those five left wing judges, or demand they resign, then all effort should be made to do so.


amicus
 
Amicus? Why are those judges liberal? Surely what they're doing is the absolute anti-thesis of liberalness?

The Earl
 
TheEarl said:
Amicus? Why are those judges liberal? Surely what they're doing is the absolute anti-thesis of liberalness?

The Earl


Liberals here favor big government Earl. They also favor redistributing wealth to make things more even. In this case, the most important reason to call the liberals is beacuse they are. the judges who formed the majority included both Clinto appointees and the other judges who are considered liberal. One swing and the hard core conservatives voted in the dissent.
 
"...Amicus? Why are those judges liberal? Surely what they're doing is the absolute anti-thesis of liberalness?

The Earl..."


I wish I could answer that, Earl.

The American Democratic Party is home to many divergent opinions. I have tried before to list a number of issues upon which the left wing of the democratic party adhere to and rather gotten nowhere.

The definition of 'classic liberal' does not seem, in my opinion, to apply to the Democratic Party, nor to left wingers.

To be identified as a communist or a socialist in America is a death knell for any political future.

I suggest the word, 'liberal' quite like the word, 'gay', has been high jacked to gloss over the basic beliefs of these groups.

Since we had a half century cold war with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic, and fought a war with the 'National Socialists' (Nazi's), few in politics in this country will openly identify with Socialism or Communism.

I personally consider the left wing in this country to be basically socialistic in nature in that most of the issues they support are those issues that sacrifice individual rights for the benefit of the 'greater good', such as the Supreme Court's decision on eminent domain property rights.

It is not accurate to group them all together, and I know that, however in practical terms, they do vote as one party even if they do not have an ennumerated party platform on current issues.

Perhaps some who read the forum would offer a list of fundamental issues that Democrats/Left Wing/Liberals agree upon.

It might be enlightening to all.


amicus...
 
My apologies, Liar, I scanned two full pages of the forum and did not see the Supreme Court issue raised. Thank you for the thread links.

amicus...
 
Hmm strikes me as a bit odd stealing property (where have I heard that one before?) and then selling it to big business. What's the problem? (for the freedom loving capitalists) and where's the liberalism?
 
gauchecritic said:
Hmm strikes me as a bit odd stealing property (where have I heard that one before?) and then selling it to big business. What's the problem? (for the freedom loving capitalists) and where's the liberalism?

The liberalism is in the argument used that as long as it has SOME public benefit it is okay to do.

The interpretation being presented is that the government has a right to take the property of one private individual and force its sale to another private individual.

It's also being placed on the liberals because the SCOTUS conservatives blasted the decision, Thomas who is considered an administration patsy called it 'unconstitutional'. (I didn't even think he knew that word existed.)

Sincerely,
ElSol
 
To be liberal (small l) in England, I'd say you have these basic beliefs:

People are entitled to basic human rights.
People are entitled to education and health services.
All people, no matter their creed, colour, background or wealth, deserve exactly the same rights and protection under the eyes of the law.
People are entitled to live any lifestyle as long as it does not impact harmfully on others

I'm providing this information for information, amicus, rather than as fodder for a debate, so I hope you take it as such. I'd say those were the core beliefs of liberals and are not linked to a particular party.

As a liberal myself, I would add that I believe:

Big Government to be a bad thing
Handing over power to unelected officials in Europe to be a bad thing
The welfare state, as it stands, creates too honeyed a poverty trap.
Teflon Tony to be the tool of the devil

However, you may not be able to ascribethese values to all English liberals.

The Earl
 
That damn constitution

Amicus said,

I personally consider the left wing in this country to be basically socialistic in nature in that most of the issues they support are those issues that sacrifice individual rights for the benefit of the 'greater good', such as the Supreme Court's decision on eminent domain property rights.

The right of the federal government, through due process, and with compensation, to eminent domain (buying out land,etc) is enshrined in the Constitution, Amicus. (Had you been there to straighten out these closet socialists, history might have been different!)

Call it 'socialism' and 'evil' and so on, Amicus, but here, as in other places, you oppose the ideas of Washington, Jeffferson, and others, as well as the democratic will of the US public. You're free to be "Randian", but don't try to wrap it in the flag.

This decision is particularly 'bald' and 'openfaced,' in acknowledging business interests. There are dozens of cases of businesses buying a local or state gov and going ahead with some confiscatory project--e.g., the Chicago "L".

If one agrees that governments at various levels have this right "for the public good, as they see it", then the decision follows. The problem is the buying of government by big businesses who operate according to the 'no law' 'no restraint' rules (free of regulation) that Amicus recommends.

In Amicus' 'free society'--no regulation of business--the big guy would be seizing land in similar, though more rapid, manner every day, and not even bothering to compensate. The government would be so small as not to be worth buying, or capable of being an obstacle. So the 'big guy' simply puts enough pressure on the 'hold out', that the latter takes a pittance to sell out. (This is standard Rockefeller Sr., Carnegie, etc. tactic of which ami approves.)
 
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Liberal Supreme Court? Wait, I thought they were über-conservative for allowing big business to seize property? Damn it, my political compass is broken! Someone tell me who to hate! Help!

In all seriousness, this decision is hardly a "landmark" case. Yes, they have expanded the power of eminent domain but not by that much and it's not really a big deal. They did not "strike down property rights" as the eminent domain has been a part of property since the dawn of time. This decision is consistent with the Supreme Court's previous findings reg eminent domain and with the evolution of society as a whole. Chill out.
 
The Earl: "...To be liberal (small l) in England, I'd say you have these basic beliefs:

People are entitled to basic human rights.
People are entitled to education and health services.
All people, no matter their creed, colour, background or wealth, deserve exactly the same rights and protection under the eyes of the law.
People are entitled to live any lifestyle as long as it does not impact harmfully on others..."



The definition of 'basic human rights' is confined basically to life, liberty and property.

Your use of 'entitled' to, confuses the issue, mixing rights with entitlements, two wholly separate issues.

As a mean and nasty old advocate of human freedom and liberty, you may find it difficult to accept that even I would have all people receive education and health services and even food, shelter and clothing.

The best humanitarian act I can make is to work to provide political freedom for those people so they can avail themselves of those and many other amenitites of life.

The worst thing I could do would be to tell them they have a 'right' to those things and urge them to join together and pass laws so that they can legally 'take' those things they desire.

I protect, feed and clothe my children as best I can and should I have surplus resources, I might in fact assist others when and if "I" chose. I will not do so because you think I should.

amicus...
 
elsol said:
The liberalism is in the argument used that as long as it has SOME public benefit it is okay to do.
Which isn't liberalism at all. That's socialism.


Sorry, just my mandatory straightening-out-the-definitions post.
 
Pure....it is almost pointless to debate with you as you can not get past your basic hatred of the free enterprise system and business and industry specifically.


You said: "...In Amicus' 'free society'--no regulation of business--the big guy would be seizing land in similar, though more rapid, manner every day, and not even bothering to compensate. The government would be so small as not to be worth buying, or capable of being an obstacle. So the 'big guy' simply puts enough pressure on the 'hold out', that the latter takes a pittance to sell out. (This is standard Rockefeller Sr., Carnegie, etc. tactic of which ami approves.)..."

Aside from the standard left wing robber baron mantra, chanted over and over again, perhaps if one day you would do an objective study of the development of oil, steel and railroads in the United States, you might find a small reason to applaud the market place freedom that allowed these giants of industry and finance to open up an entire continent.

But then again, maybe not.

In a free society, the government would never be so small as to not be able to protect individual liberties and freedoms and property rights, for if so it would surely fall as it nearly did over the Civil War, a nation divided.

I do not deny that there are both corrupt politicians and businessmen, nor do I deny that when either can find a way to shortcut the system of checks and balances to their own profit, they might.

But in criticizing the function and operation of an unregulated free market place, it becomes incumbent upon you to provide us with a system you think would work better.

So, can you...and still protect the basic rights of the individual?

C'mon, big boy, the world awaits!


amicus....
 
Hello, Rotational, you lil virgin you...welcome!


You said, in part..."...Liberal Supreme Court? Wait, I thought they were über-conservative for allowing big business to seize property? Damn it, my political compass is broken! Someone tell me who to hate! Help!

In all seriousness, this decision is hardly a "landmark" case. Yes, they have expanded the power of eminent domain but not by that much and it's not really a big deal. They did not "strike down property rights" as the eminent domain has been a part of property since the dawn of time. This decision is consistent with the Supreme Court's previous findings reg eminent domain and with the evolution of society as a whole. Chill out...."



A quick browse of the newspapers, news channels on television and the hundreds of blogs that have sprung up since this court decision last Thursday, you seem out of step with most who have commented on this issue.

Six of the nine justices are considered 'liberal' judges, four hard left, one moderate and one swing voter.

As this issue builds while the nation awaits the resignation and appointment of one or perhaps two Supreme Court Justices, this one issue in particular, even beyond Roe V Wade will be uppermost in the nationwide campaign to influence the Senate when the White House chooses a nominee.

As I mentioned earlier, over 10,000 cases are on the docket as Urban Renewal associations across the country, the darlings of the Liberals, attempt to pre empt individual property rights and sacrifice them for the 'greater good', and even worse, in the New London case the Court heard, the logic was 'to increase the tax base' more money from property and business to support liberal plans to manage and manipulate urban communities.

I may be wrong, but I sense that many who participate on this forum are not in fact or deed, 'property owners' themselves and perhaps have not a clue as to what private ownership of a house and a piece of land, all yours, is really all about.

amicus...
 
TheEarl said:
I'm providing this information for information, amicus, rather than as fodder for a debate, so I hope you take it as such.

amicus said:
The definition of 'basic human rights' is confined basically to life, liberty and property.

Your use of 'entitled' to, confuses the issue, mixing rights with entitlements, two wholly separate issues.

As a mean and nasty old advocate of human freedom and liberty, you may find it difficult to accept that even I would have all people receive education and health services and even food, shelter and clothing.

The best humanitarian act I can make is to work to provide political freedom for those people so they can avail themselves of those and many other amenitites of life.

The worst thing I could do would be to tell them they have a 'right' to those things and urge them to join together and pass laws so that they can legally 'take' those things they desire.

I protect, feed and clothe my children as best I can and should I have surplus resources, I might in fact assist others when and if "I" chose. I will not do so because you think I should.

amicus...

I offered you that information because you asked for it, not because I wanted to argue with you again. And I specifically said that it wasn't for arguing over, just for your information, because you asked how people would define liberalism around the globe.

Last time I try and help you if that's the attitude you're going to be taking.

The Earl
 
amicus said:
I may be wrong, but I sense that many who participate on this forum are not in fact or deed, 'property owners' themselves and perhaps have not a clue as to what private ownership of a house and a piece of land, all yours, is really all about.

amicus...

Well, you're wrong if you think that most Litizens aren't against this ruling, if the last two threads on the matter are anything to go by. You're in the majority for once amicus.

The Earl
 
amicus said:
A quick browse of the newspapers, news channels on television and the hundreds of blogs that have sprung up since this court decision last Thursday, you seem out of step with most who have commented on this issue.
Thank you.

Anyway. Property is a basic human right and as such it is sacred. However, it is not absolute. Like all rights, it is limited by other rights, and it is the job of lawmakers and judges to set the border between those rights. Only extremists advocate that private property should be absolute and that there should be no eminent domain. Even in the days of the Enlightenment and classical liberalism where property rights were at their most absolute, the law recognized some limitations.

The SCOTUS has increased the reach of eminent domain a little, but it's not a big deal, because it will remain an exceptional case, and it will remain under the direction and supervision of the government. In effect, it will still be the same thing: the government will plan some large project and buy people's land to make that project, sometimes forcing the buy, except that in some of those times, now it may do it through a corporation. Big deal.

I'd like to remind you that, for instance, we would have no freeway system if it weren't for the government's capacity to buy all pieces of land around straight linees stretching over hundreds and thousands of miles. Property is a necessity, and I'm actually a very big believer in it, believing that in other contexts property needs to be stronger than it is, but eminent domain is also a good thing, including in this case.
 
Rotational:

I think the SCOTUS demonstrated once again that it is an 'activist' court; making law instead of interpreting law.

It may not be a big thing to you and I could well be wrong, but perhaps the next few months will support one of us.

There are professional groups energized all over the country to seek a way around this ruling and from what I read, the issue will continue to grow, become part of the debate on a new court appointee and perhaps play a role in the 2006 Congressional elections.

Time will tell.

As I said earlier, I understand the necessity for a due process eminent domain procedure, for the very reasons you mentioned. But is has always been of very limited scope. This ruling makes the very concept of private property vulnerable to manipulation my municipalities and other political entities that wish to reshape an urban environment.

regards...amicus...
 
Hate to tell you this, ami, but the whole seizing property thing has been going on ever since Europeans set foot on this continent. Not that I agree with it, but at least the folks now are getting paid for it, and not having some bullshit manifest destiny shoved down their throats.

;)
 
cloudy said:
Hate to tell you this, ami, but the whole seizing property thing has been going on ever since Europeans set foot on this continent. Not that I agree with it, but at least the folks now are getting paid for it, and not having some bullshit manifest destiny shoved down their throats.

;)

Well possibly but you must understand Cloudy that America couldn't have become the very essence of freedom that it is if they hadn't done that.

Just goes to show really, that property (US property) actually is theft.
 
gauchecritic said:
Well possibly but you must understand Cloudy that America couldn't have become the very essence of freedom that it is if they hadn't done that.

Just goes to show really, that property (US property) actually is theft.

Just strikes me funny as hell that it's theft now, but it wasn't then. :rolleyes:

Goes to show you: as you sow, so shall you reap. Or in other words: payback is a motherfucker.
 
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Hell, Amicus, I thought you would be jumping for joy at yet another win for corporate rights over individual rights. The new bankruptcy law, nafta, cafta, and now this. Your side is winning buddy. It's time to celebrate.

And don't let the nay votes fool you. Every justice that has been appointed favors gov't and corporate rights over common citizens. They have many differences in ideology, but the supreme court has been passing laws that favor gov't and corporations for 45 years.

But hell, this ruling just confirms what we already know.... there are no property rights. Who owns property? The bank owns property. And if you get lucky enough to hold title to property that some big chainstore like Walmart wants... tough luck. They'll donate a couple of grand to a campaign or two and take it from you for whatever they want to pay for it.

Until there is real campaign finance reform, expect more of the same.
 
amicus said:
Aside from the standard left wing robber baron mantra, chanted over and over again, perhaps if one day you would do an objective study of the development of oil, steel and railroads in the United States, you might find a small reason to applaud the market place freedom that allowed these giants of industry and finance to open up an entire continent.
amicus....

Was it not a Republican President, Theodore Roosveldt who first labelled the early industrialists 'Robber Barons' and introduced Trust Busting measures to break their monopolies ?

Rockefeller whom you admire made most of his profits through the illegal price fixing of freight rates ie he regulated the market from a monopoly position. Harriman and Hill your heroes of the railroad boom raised capital with false prospectus's and then milked those companies behind false accounting. JP Morgan bankrolled their criminality because whilst he knew what they were doing he also knew that as a preferred creditor the banks could take discounted assets from shareholders when companies failed.

If you ever bothered to study the real facts instead of your Disneyland view of history you would discover that almost all of the significant regulation of the so called free market of the last 105 years has been introduced by conservative Republican administrations.

Another fact which blows away a lot of the tosh you talk about taxation is that in 1945 Corporate Taxes in the USA were 5.1% of GDP. In 2005 those Taxes are 1.2% of GDP .

I will not tell you the ultimate source of capital that was used to open up the US continent nor where most of the railroad steel came from . You tell us - if you know. :rolleyes:
 
Damn framers got mixed up

amicus

The definition of 'basic human rights' is confined basically to life, liberty and property.

You don't say where this bit of wisdom comes from, but it was indeed Locke's opinion.

However the damn signers of the Declaration of Independence got it wrong, not having you on hand They said, "inalienable rights, life, liberty and pursuit of happiness."

The place of 'property rights' in the Bill of Rights is certainly not prominent either: I invite to you quote the protections, such as they are.

The anti slavery amendment (XIII), is a breach of property rights, but we know that amicus is NOT happy with any constitutional amendments after the first ten.
Seems he has a problem with the process described in the Constitution.

How could these smart people, the constitutions framers, NOT agree with amicus, who KNOWS the basic rights. An enduring mystery.

Let's see, Amicus got it from Rand, who got it from Locke, who, ironically, got it from God (natural theology), whom neither Rand nor amicus believe in... but no one ever accused these two of familiarity with Western political philosophy. Or even of consistency.
 
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