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I just wish people would stop responding to amicus. Actual ignoring is best. P.
Let's OUTSOURCE the draft!
- Thread starter shereads
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rgraham666
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You can call it outsourcing if you want but it's just mercenaries by another name.
And do you know what often happens with mercenaries?
One day they realise two things. The first is "We have weapons and know how to use them, and our employers do not." The second is "Our employers are rich and we are not."
Doesn't take a genius to see what happens then.
Ask citizens of some city-states in Renaissance Italy. Or the Romans.
And do you know what often happens with mercenaries?
One day they realise two things. The first is "We have weapons and know how to use them, and our employers do not." The second is "Our employers are rich and we are not."
Doesn't take a genius to see what happens then.
Ask citizens of some city-states in Renaissance Italy. Or the Romans.
shereads
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Trickle-Down Economics at Work - a case study for the willfully ignorant
No wonder our deranged uber-bigot doesn't like to back up his points with evidence. There's too much evidence to indictate that unrestricted capitalism is as destructive as pure communism.
The "robber barons" weren't a myth, but the term is inaccurate. They could more aptly be called the "killer barons," as anyone could learn who has a modicum of interest in U.S. history during the so-called Golden Age.
The Johnstown, PA flood of 1889:
2000 lives were lost as a direct result of the compassionate conservatism of Andrew Mellon, Henry Clay Frick and Andrew Carnegie, who created a fishing lake for their club by building an unregulated dam upstream from the town.
For years, these hearty capitalists ignored requests to have the dam inspected and maintained by professional engineers. Since there was no regulatory body to force the members to consider public safety, the dam continued to deteriorate until it collapsed and swept away the town. The force of the flood was so great that most of the victims didn't die of drowning; they were impaled by barbed wire, crushed by the weight of objects and animals caught up in the flood, and suffered so much damage that hundreds of bodies were never identified.
While volunteer coroners waited for embalming fluid to arrive in Johnstown, they busied themselves making a list of bodies, portions of bodies and identifying information in the hope of assisting relatives of the missing. A part of the list is reproduced in the fact-based novel, "In Sunlight, In A Beautiful Garden," by Kathleen Cambor:
...Foot of female. High-button shoe. Black marino stockings.
...W.K. Endsley's bank book
...Unknown. Male, age fifty. Weight 170. Height 5 feet 6 inches. Leather boots. Silver open faced watch, Elgin movement. Ten cents. Found in Stony Creek near Brethren Church.
...Little girl. Very light hair. Black hose. Spring heel button shoes.
After the flood, Frick and two other members of the club volunteered to chair the international relief effort begun by Clara Barton and the Red Cross. The club donated 1,000 blankets. The members additionally agreed that the club should be disbanded, and all records of its existence gathered and destroyed.
The club was eventually threatened with legal action by some of the survivors, some of whom had written to the members to complain about the deteriorating condition of the dam. As a chartered entity, the club had no assets and no records. Once the threats subsided, businesses belonging to three of the wealthiest members - Frick, Mellon and Carnegie - donated a total of $16,000.
Those were the days! Unfettered capitalism, relying upon the basic goodness and humanity of America's new ruling class to look after the rights of the little people downstream. A thousand points of light, etc. The vision thing.
-----------
The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire, 1911
When the workers aren't bitching about the wet conditions downstream from the dam, they're whining about the fire it could have put out:
In 1909, after a small fire broke out at the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory in New York's garment district, 400 women workers picketed against unsafe conditions and gained enough publicity to bring about the passage of a 1910 workplace safety law. The owners of the factory disregarded the law and continued to lock the women inside the factory to prevent theft, and to assure that time wasn't wasted with unauthorized restroom breaks.
"On Saturday, March 25, 1911, a fire broke out on the 8th floor of the building at around 4:30pm. Women working on the 9th floor were trapped, while those on the 8th floor fought amongst themselves to get out using the elevator.
Around 4:45pm, spectators reported seeing bolts of fabric being thrown from the windows of the top floors. They soon discovered that what they had mistaken for bolts were women's bodies. When the fire companies arrived they found that the water from their hoses only reached the 7th floor and their ladders reached somewhere between the 6th and 7th floors. They tried catching the jumping women with nets and blankets, but there were just too many women falling with too great a force.
In all 146 women died that day.
An eyewitness wrote, 'The floods of water from the firemens' hose that ran into the gutter were actually stained red with blood. I looked upon the heap of dead bodies and I remembered these girls were the shirtwaist makers. I remembered their great strike of last year in which these same girls had demanded more sanitary conditions and more safety precautions in the shops. These dead bodies were the answer.'
Eight months after the fire, the two owners Blanck and Harris were acquitted of the charges of wrongdoing against them. This was not the end, however, as the families of the victims filed 23 civil law suits against the firm. Finally, three years after the fire, the two men settled out of court, paying each of the 23 families $75.
Unfortunately, it took this tragedy to force the government to crack down on sweatshop employers. Laws regulating working conditions began to be strictly enforced and labor unions gained power."
http://www.rodrigo-ny.com/women/mar8.asp
In 1857, women garment workers in NY had been fired on by the Army for picketing in favor of a shorter work week. Labor rabble-rousers have been interfering with the natural order of unrestricted capitalism since the height of the industrial revolution that gave them their livelihood. And there have always been courageous gentlemen to put them in their place.
No wonder our deranged uber-bigot doesn't like to back up his points with evidence. There's too much evidence to indictate that unrestricted capitalism is as destructive as pure communism.
The "robber barons" weren't a myth, but the term is inaccurate. They could more aptly be called the "killer barons," as anyone could learn who has a modicum of interest in U.S. history during the so-called Golden Age.
The Johnstown, PA flood of 1889:
2000 lives were lost as a direct result of the compassionate conservatism of Andrew Mellon, Henry Clay Frick and Andrew Carnegie, who created a fishing lake for their club by building an unregulated dam upstream from the town.
For years, these hearty capitalists ignored requests to have the dam inspected and maintained by professional engineers. Since there was no regulatory body to force the members to consider public safety, the dam continued to deteriorate until it collapsed and swept away the town. The force of the flood was so great that most of the victims didn't die of drowning; they were impaled by barbed wire, crushed by the weight of objects and animals caught up in the flood, and suffered so much damage that hundreds of bodies were never identified.
While volunteer coroners waited for embalming fluid to arrive in Johnstown, they busied themselves making a list of bodies, portions of bodies and identifying information in the hope of assisting relatives of the missing. A part of the list is reproduced in the fact-based novel, "In Sunlight, In A Beautiful Garden," by Kathleen Cambor:
...Foot of female. High-button shoe. Black marino stockings.
...W.K. Endsley's bank book
...Unknown. Male, age fifty. Weight 170. Height 5 feet 6 inches. Leather boots. Silver open faced watch, Elgin movement. Ten cents. Found in Stony Creek near Brethren Church.
...Little girl. Very light hair. Black hose. Spring heel button shoes.
After the flood, Frick and two other members of the club volunteered to chair the international relief effort begun by Clara Barton and the Red Cross. The club donated 1,000 blankets. The members additionally agreed that the club should be disbanded, and all records of its existence gathered and destroyed.
The club was eventually threatened with legal action by some of the survivors, some of whom had written to the members to complain about the deteriorating condition of the dam. As a chartered entity, the club had no assets and no records. Once the threats subsided, businesses belonging to three of the wealthiest members - Frick, Mellon and Carnegie - donated a total of $16,000.
Those were the days! Unfettered capitalism, relying upon the basic goodness and humanity of America's new ruling class to look after the rights of the little people downstream. A thousand points of light, etc. The vision thing.
-----------
The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire, 1911
When the workers aren't bitching about the wet conditions downstream from the dam, they're whining about the fire it could have put out:
In 1909, after a small fire broke out at the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory in New York's garment district, 400 women workers picketed against unsafe conditions and gained enough publicity to bring about the passage of a 1910 workplace safety law. The owners of the factory disregarded the law and continued to lock the women inside the factory to prevent theft, and to assure that time wasn't wasted with unauthorized restroom breaks.
"On Saturday, March 25, 1911, a fire broke out on the 8th floor of the building at around 4:30pm. Women working on the 9th floor were trapped, while those on the 8th floor fought amongst themselves to get out using the elevator.
Around 4:45pm, spectators reported seeing bolts of fabric being thrown from the windows of the top floors. They soon discovered that what they had mistaken for bolts were women's bodies. When the fire companies arrived they found that the water from their hoses only reached the 7th floor and their ladders reached somewhere between the 6th and 7th floors. They tried catching the jumping women with nets and blankets, but there were just too many women falling with too great a force.
In all 146 women died that day.
An eyewitness wrote, 'The floods of water from the firemens' hose that ran into the gutter were actually stained red with blood. I looked upon the heap of dead bodies and I remembered these girls were the shirtwaist makers. I remembered their great strike of last year in which these same girls had demanded more sanitary conditions and more safety precautions in the shops. These dead bodies were the answer.'
Eight months after the fire, the two owners Blanck and Harris were acquitted of the charges of wrongdoing against them. This was not the end, however, as the families of the victims filed 23 civil law suits against the firm. Finally, three years after the fire, the two men settled out of court, paying each of the 23 families $75.
Unfortunately, it took this tragedy to force the government to crack down on sweatshop employers. Laws regulating working conditions began to be strictly enforced and labor unions gained power."
http://www.rodrigo-ny.com/women/mar8.asp
In 1857, women garment workers in NY had been fired on by the Army for picketing in favor of a shorter work week. Labor rabble-rousers have been interfering with the natural order of unrestricted capitalism since the height of the industrial revolution that gave them their livelihood. And there have always been courageous gentlemen to put them in their place.
amicus said:
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shereads
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I may be even more liberal than I thought! I never gave much thought to labor unions, beyond thinking that some of the regulatory requirements seemed self-defeating - and wondering if unions had become obsolete. Thanks to A, I did some research and learned that not all modern labor problems are overseas:
"In 1991, 25 workers died behind illegally locked doors of a Hamlet, North Carolina poultry processing plant, in a building with no sprinklers or fire alarms, which the state had not inspected despite workers' complaints.
"In 1995, a clothing manufacturer in El Monte, California enslaved recent Southeast Asian immigrants to make garments that were sold in U.S. department stores.
"Sweatshops continue to exist wherever greed takes precedence over human need."
http://www.uniteunion.org/sweatshops/photos/photos.html
"In 1991, 25 workers died behind illegally locked doors of a Hamlet, North Carolina poultry processing plant, in a building with no sprinklers or fire alarms, which the state had not inspected despite workers' complaints.
"In 1995, a clothing manufacturer in El Monte, California enslaved recent Southeast Asian immigrants to make garments that were sold in U.S. department stores.
"Sweatshops continue to exist wherever greed takes precedence over human need."
http://www.uniteunion.org/sweatshops/photos/photos.html
Virtual_Burlesque
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Just heard a news story about this year’s National Spelling Bee Championships.
Unfortunately, I heard no mention that George W. was scheduled to attend.
Unfortunately, I heard no mention that George W. was scheduled to attend.
Xelebes
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amicus said:
Ah something I can agree on with amicus.
The only way to stop outsourcing work is from the worker's part of making themselves invaluable to the company such that they won't dismiss you and find someone cheaper. Sad reality is that most of the manufacturing work calls for very poor standards in the product so the average Ho and Li can make it as good as any American. Workmanship is what lets you keep the job. I mean, they can get prisoners to do the same quality of craftmanship in the product as the average American, then give it to the prisoner.
Workmanship has probably been the biggest reason why many markets are still open, where corporations don't move from their present nations like Sweden, Norway, Germany and France. (The only exception I can think of is Renault, but from what I hear is that their cars are not that bad.) From what I've seen, American products are crap as opposed to European or Japanese products or even domestic Canadian products. Why is that? I think it has to do more with work ethic, workmanship and craftmanship that has been lacking over the years in American workers.
Lucifer_Carroll
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Xelebes said:
http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2004/02/23/no_support/index_np.html
What do you do when the company demands shoddy performance from its employees? Also, look at the true nature of downsizing, mass layoffs, etc... No one is being fired today because of competence issues. It's all about the monetary benefits. Read Scott Adams and then tell me that American companies care about quality anymore. Better yet, enter into a fast food restaurant or get a cell phone or buy anything (planned obsolesence, a real marketing tool, causes everything you buy to break so that you will buy another copy, yes everything. There was a story reported a while back about a book publisher that was sending memos about reducing the strength of the glue so that people would have to buy multiple copies of a book if they wanted to keep it for more than a decade).
Anyway, back to frivilous. Outsource the draft, hell outsource whole states. Do we really need South Carolina or Texas or California or Washington D.C.? I say we outsource the Capitol to Bangladesh. P.S. www.theregister.co.uk is now selling "my job went to india and all i got was this stupid mug" mugs. Get one to beg for quarters with on the street everyone! I know I am!
amicus
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Geez, this Cafe' Socialist argument promoted by Shereads, goes back to the 1930's when the great Communist revolution of 1917 was being debated as the new wave of world politics.
Shereads...wake up and look around, Socialism is dead and almost buried, World Communism is a joke after the grave yard that was the Soviet Union was dismantled.
It is a simple debate between freedom and slavery. You wish government, and unions to control and regulate all facets of human life, I do not.
You lose.
And oh, yes, that 1911 fire...are there greedy, uncaring, profiteering people in the world? Even the Party bigwigs in Russia had their private Dachaus and unlimited supplies of Vodka and Caviar, while the common people starved.
There are bad people in the world..under any system..that is not the point.
amicus...
Shereads...wake up and look around, Socialism is dead and almost buried, World Communism is a joke after the grave yard that was the Soviet Union was dismantled.
It is a simple debate between freedom and slavery. You wish government, and unions to control and regulate all facets of human life, I do not.
You lose.
And oh, yes, that 1911 fire...are there greedy, uncaring, profiteering people in the world? Even the Party bigwigs in Russia had their private Dachaus and unlimited supplies of Vodka and Caviar, while the common people starved.
There are bad people in the world..under any system..that is not the point.
amicus...
Lucifer_Carroll
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Ami, my luv-
Do you even bother to read shereads posts before you call her a socialist and commie? Damn man, this is really sickening me. So let me make it absolutely clear:
SHEREADS IS NOT A COMMUNIST!!!!!!!!
Thank you.
Do you even bother to read shereads posts before you call her a socialist and commie? Damn man, this is really sickening me. So let me make it absolutely clear:
SHEREADS IS NOT A COMMUNIST!!!!!!!!
Thank you.
Colleen Thomas
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amicus said:
The robber barons are no more a myth than the holocaust, although it is conveinint for certain groups to maintain that they are.
I could look up plenty of facts, to support this, but I think instead I'll just use one example. It's easier for me, and since I have seen the effects I know it to be true beyond any refutation you care to try and produce. Not that you would ever stoop to research of course.
Mr. Harriman owned a large portion of the land in what was then upstate New York, now Rockland & Orange counties. There is a fine state park here, with Seven Lakes Drive, being one of the major attractions. When Mr. Harriman owned the land however, there weren't seven lakes on it.
Much of the stone used to build New york city was quarried from the banks of the Hudson, along the Palisades. A minor Mt. range. People could make a great deal of money for the time, in the quarries and so squatter settlements sprang up on Mr. Harriman's land. Removing squaters is a royal pain, he tried just hiring gangs of thugs to burn them out, but that didn't work, they just came back & rebuilt. So Mr. Harriman decided to donate the land to the state for a park, with one priviso. That the state remove the squatters before the land became theirs.
We now have seven beautiful man made lakes, Tiorati, Sacanatadi, Sebago, Asahi, Kanawaki, and the upper and lower Twin Lakes. Thy are all man made, and at the bottom of everyone of them is a squatter town. In high summer you can still see the forlorn chimeys and roof tops sticking up out of the lakes. Not much way to rebuild or reinhabit a town under a lake.
Seven lakes covering seven thriving towns. Built by the state, at the behest of Mr. Harriman, out of simple vindictiveness. No robber barons? Please.
-Colly
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amicus
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Colly...damn...and you can be so rational...
Land grants from the King of England, Charter companies, Railroad grants..a thousand things you can point to, to justify your 'belief' in the 'Robber Barons' myth.
It is not those things that are the issue, as there are always things to be fixed in a new way of life. The transition from European economic and commercial enterprises, and the 'families' of Europe and the 'Churches' of Europe, all delayed and corrupted the quest for a whole new era, that of, 'free enterprise', it had never been tried before and surely had it's failings...
But the concept, of individual ownership of the means of production, land, factories, natural resources, the freedom to experiment, to innovate..surely you know that the freedom from control, oppression and suppression, is well worth the glitches in the system? You do know that?
amicus
Land grants from the King of England, Charter companies, Railroad grants..a thousand things you can point to, to justify your 'belief' in the 'Robber Barons' myth.
It is not those things that are the issue, as there are always things to be fixed in a new way of life. The transition from European economic and commercial enterprises, and the 'families' of Europe and the 'Churches' of Europe, all delayed and corrupted the quest for a whole new era, that of, 'free enterprise', it had never been tried before and surely had it's failings...
But the concept, of individual ownership of the means of production, land, factories, natural resources, the freedom to experiment, to innovate..surely you know that the freedom from control, oppression and suppression, is well worth the glitches in the system? You do know that?
amicus
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Colly, what an image. Thank you for this, and for all you teach me.Colleen Thomas said:
Perdita
shereads
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Xelebes said:
Xelebes, craftsmanship thrives in companies that reward craftsmanship. Having spent some college summers on assembly-line jobs in factories, I can assure you that the only standard of performance that was measurable under the conditions set up by the companies themselves, was speed.
A fast assembly line = cheaper cost to the manufacturer.
A "craftsman" mentality in any one worker causes the line to slow down. That person doesn't make his daily quota, and is fired.
shereads
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Colleen Thomas said:
There seems to be a water theme running through the "myth." The Johnstown flood was an accident born of arrogance, and in NY we have some nice lakes thanks to someone's disdain for people whose labor he no longer needed.
Facts don't prove anything, though, Colly. Not to someone who has absolute faith in his god. In this case, the god is unrestricted capitalism.
shereads
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Lucifer_Carroll said:
Luc, thank you. But there's no need to defend me to Amicus. I can predict his response to each post, almost as if I'm steering his brain. It's fun. This must be how Cheney feels when he's pulling the president's strings.
We're not dealing with someone rational here. Why pretend we are, when we have it from the Wise One himself that he doesn't believe in supporting an opinion with anything but more opinions?
I posted a fragment of the history of events that led to the need for labor unions and for restrictions on corporate greed, in case there are any lurkers who might take something A says at face value - not because I expected to shake his comforrtable delusions.
A himself has said he wants to overthrow the government (ooh! scary!) so whether anyone here is a communist is beside the point.
But if A's definition of a communist is someone who empathises with the poor and powerless, then I guess I am one. So are you. So is nearly everyone except the lower primates, and lizards, and this {edited to delete the obvious; let's just say he's a frightened little man.}
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shereads
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amicus said:
If I experiment by flushing chemical waste into my piece of the river, and you live downstream, I assume you support my decision 100%, and that any health problems your children might suffer as a result are a glitch in the system.
Blind faith.
Amicus is a Fundamentalist. The Taliban of Capitalism.
amicus
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The ongoing hysterical (research the word) outcry against, 'unbridled' Capitalism...goes on and on and on...
There are only two market systems available to mankind; one in which 'Adolph' tells you where to work and what to work at, Stalin tells you where to live, Mao tells you how many children to have, Saddam tells you which way to face when you pray, and Pope John Paul who tells you what is right and wrong. And a hundred other examples throughout the ages....
That is one system...and variations on a theme, (not Paganini) and not Opus 51
The other system...(the one that works), is the 'free market' system, where people work at their chosen profession, for a wage or salary they agree to accept. Where they are free to buy and sell and save or invest, with total free choice.
A free market system that manages, when an undertaker dies in a small South Dakota town, to find a new undertaker the next day in that amazing way that a free market, operating in a 'for profit' system, magically manages to accomodate.
There is a debate here? I have sufficient excess funds to provide economy class tickets to about a hundred if you would like a passage to a country burdened with a command economy.
amicus
There are only two market systems available to mankind; one in which 'Adolph' tells you where to work and what to work at, Stalin tells you where to live, Mao tells you how many children to have, Saddam tells you which way to face when you pray, and Pope John Paul who tells you what is right and wrong. And a hundred other examples throughout the ages....
That is one system...and variations on a theme, (not Paganini) and not Opus 51
The other system...(the one that works), is the 'free market' system, where people work at their chosen profession, for a wage or salary they agree to accept. Where they are free to buy and sell and save or invest, with total free choice.
A free market system that manages, when an undertaker dies in a small South Dakota town, to find a new undertaker the next day in that amazing way that a free market, operating in a 'for profit' system, magically manages to accomodate.
There is a debate here? I have sufficient excess funds to provide economy class tickets to about a hundred if you would like a passage to a country burdened with a command economy.
amicus
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Colleen Thomas
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amicus said:
Actually, I can be rational. And objective.
I have no problems with railroad grants of right or way. It's entierly neccessary and proper. Creating the company store syndrome, where by you shaft the workers out of the pittance you pay them to start was not neccessary. It was pure greed. The same for coal mines, steel mills & factories.
The maximization of profit, at the expense of any consideration for the humanity of the people working for you was the hallmark of the robber barons. The ugly side of capitalism.
I have no problem with individual ownership of the means of production. I'm not a communist or socialist. I think the idea of the workers controlling production is rediculous. Workers risk nothing, the owner risks all he has and thus should turn the lion's share of the profits.
But I can support my position on that, without resprting to denying the long list of abuses the capitalist system has produced or trying to rewrite history and say the robber barons didn't exist.
The real question here is why you feel the need to be a revisionist historian to support you belief in a free market. I don't. I just accept that any system has faults and those faults sometimes require regulation.
-Colly
amicus
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Perhaps, 'post revisionist' would be more accurate, following 150 years of mudraking against the free enterprise system, taking into consideration the ongoing 'Hollywood syndrome', a current example is the 'war' in Iraq, a plethora of those who criticize, only a few that point out the accomplishments.
I used to do a talk radio show, I learned it was not the dozens that called (or post) to whom one speaks, but the 3000 who have read this thread and not responded.
I paid $1600.00 for my first 64K computer...I now have a greater capacity in my wristwatch.
Only in a free system, with all its faults, is something like that possible, where one person, an individual, can choose to merge with others, for a 'profit motive' and find new ways to do things better, is that possible.
amicus
I used to do a talk radio show, I learned it was not the dozens that called (or post) to whom one speaks, but the 3000 who have read this thread and not responded.
I paid $1600.00 for my first 64K computer...I now have a greater capacity in my wristwatch.
Only in a free system, with all its faults, is something like that possible, where one person, an individual, can choose to merge with others, for a 'profit motive' and find new ways to do things better, is that possible.
amicus
shereads
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Any thinking person knows that the extremes of either system are foolish. Not since the neocon movement have I heard anyone state seriously that the only alternative to absolute government control is the absolute freedom for the capitalist to do as he pleases, without regard to worker safety, clean air and water, hiring practices that discriminate based on race or religion. Almost everyone except neocon extremists agrees that some regulation is necessary; we differ, often widely, on where those lines need to be drawn.
In a world of Amicus' making, there would be no child labor laws; we would trust the essential goodness of the factory owner to respect the rights of children to be children, or at least to question whether there might be better ways to eliminate poverty than for children to have to share the burden of feeding the family.
In a world of Amicus' making, the factory owner could pollute at will; presumably, only a few "bad apples" would flush toxins into the air and move their own families out of the cities to healthier environments while they poisoned other people's air. After all, if I own my smokestack and my riverbank, don't environmental regulations interfere with my right to use my property for maximum profit?
For anyone but the greediest individual, the need to find a middle ground between communism and pure capitalism is so clear, it's hardly worth debating. People like Amicus whine about government restrictions on corporate greed, but turn to government for solutions when they find other people's personal choices to be immoral or offensive.
In one post, Amicus will imply that women and minorities have too much freedom; in another post, Amicus proposes that any restrictions on business or financial matters are fascist.
The contradictions aren't unique to Amicus. They're what he has in common with the religious right, whether Christian or Islamic. Amicus will never truly be happy until he accepts the Lord as his personal savior. Then he can blame the inconsistencies in his world view on God's mysterious plan for mankind.
Just what the world needs. An athiest mullah.
In a world of Amicus' making, there would be no child labor laws; we would trust the essential goodness of the factory owner to respect the rights of children to be children, or at least to question whether there might be better ways to eliminate poverty than for children to have to share the burden of feeding the family.
In a world of Amicus' making, the factory owner could pollute at will; presumably, only a few "bad apples" would flush toxins into the air and move their own families out of the cities to healthier environments while they poisoned other people's air. After all, if I own my smokestack and my riverbank, don't environmental regulations interfere with my right to use my property for maximum profit?
For anyone but the greediest individual, the need to find a middle ground between communism and pure capitalism is so clear, it's hardly worth debating. People like Amicus whine about government restrictions on corporate greed, but turn to government for solutions when they find other people's personal choices to be immoral or offensive.
In one post, Amicus will imply that women and minorities have too much freedom; in another post, Amicus proposes that any restrictions on business or financial matters are fascist.
The contradictions aren't unique to Amicus. They're what he has in common with the religious right, whether Christian or Islamic. Amicus will never truly be happy until he accepts the Lord as his personal savior. Then he can blame the inconsistencies in his world view on God's mysterious plan for mankind.
Just what the world needs. An athiest mullah.
Colleen Thomas
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amicus said:
And this post, rambling as it is, is just obfuscation. The question remains, of why you seem prepared to re write history to support a free market system. I have a deep faith in the free market. That faith, however, is tinged with a realistic assessment of human nature and an understanding that left to their own devices men (and women) are capable of being rapacious to a degree that borders on psychopathic.
The robber barons existed. Your postulation that they did not is counter to accepted historical fact. If you are going to voice such a postulation, you are going to be challenged to prove it. You have been so challenged. If you can't, or won't, that's your problem. But everything you say after that becomes so much drivel, if you refuse to support the base supposition.
For the many who have posted and the silent numbers who have just read, you are now in the jaws of reason. Support your supposition or accept that it is insupportable and find a different way to go about making your point.
My own belief in a free market economy is not that dissimilar from your own, but faulty reasoning irks me and revisionist history pisses me off. So you have been called again on trying to use history to support your ideology. Stand & deliver or step down off the soap box. The choice is yours.
-Colly
G
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Ooh, a namedropper; opus too, my my.amicus said:
Perdita
p.s. Everyone who believes the robber barons exist(ed), clap your hands (you know, lilke for Tinkerbell).
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