Left vs. Right

[Colleen Thomas]

I'm sure I am percieved as somewhat right of Hitler on this board.

I am a conservative, and my "side" is winning. But I would gladly support someone, left or right, who was sincerely interested in compromise and unity.

The ferocious distrust that exists now between left and right makes it all the more difficult for moderates. Add to it the truest satement ever made, a good compromise leaves everyone mad and y9ou can see what they are fighting against before they even encounter one another's pigheaded postitions.

But the first step, even before trusting, has to be understandoing one another. I don't meanunderstanding as in villifying either. You have to have the courage and ability to start at the starting ppooint and try to find out how the person got to their pig headed, unreasonable, irrational, etc. etc. position.

We can learn to understand one antoher, but only when we all grow up enough to walk amile in the other guy's shoes and do so without bringing our own shoes along for the trip.

 

[amicus]

Thanks, Mac...and by the way I love that song, 'ole lucy brown....'

And thanks again for speaking your mind, with a bit of personal experience thrown in along the way.

Sweetsubsarah, lovely child that she is...is so immersed in political hatred and imbedded ideology that an original thought has yet to cross her pretty mind, just ignore her.


There are, however, areas of concern. My distrust of government equals yours, I suspect. Yet I sense larger catastrophic events are on the horizon and not from natural disasters.

I am uneasy with the use of Federal programs and Federal troops in local areas, but if a disaster of this magnitude from a terrorist cause occurs, what choice remains?

I think one thing you should realize...on this site..there are people who applaud every disaster that befalls America. They truly hate with a vengeance seldom understood by normal people.

Much of the time here, I feel like the survivors of New Orleans, walking through a sewer. I came to this site to get my stories read and usually get them trashed by forum members. I stay and visit from time to time because I hear from folks like you that renew my faith in the goodness of many.

Thanks again...




amicus...

 

[mack_the_knife]

And that's exactly what I see has happened. We've quickly progressed from "how can we fix the fuck-up?" to "cover our asses."

I don't believe it is a race thing with Bush, by the way. I think it is a class thing. I don't believe he has the ability to see beyond his situation.

And he is a doo doo head.

Without a willingness to actually change the way the government operates and <gasp> possibly shrink and streamline it, we will never be able to enact meaningful change. Our bureaucracies will never 'grow' their way out of being slow and cumbersome and unresponsive.

Then why are they saying Bush hates blacks? They're not screaming Bush hates people who make under $15k a year. Is is simply more poignant to play the race card?

"But blacks were hit hardest by the destruction!" No shit, the city was over 70% black, had it been Houston, it would have been Mexican/Americans hit hardest. When (note not if) a Cat4/5 hits Miami or Tampa, prepare to see ineptitude on display again, no matter who controls the White House, it is a symptom of the bureaucracies, not the leader of the executive branch.

Can you imagine the squealing of the federal unions if the president announced sweeping and massive reform of the entire FEMA system, imagine the court challenges and the gnashing of teeth. It will never happen. NO government agency, save the military, has ever gotten smaller.

The only thing we can hope for is that next time such a horrendous event happens, someone will be willing to risk their precious career to make a choice, even if it turns out to have not been perfectly the right one, at least things will be moving.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

But the first step, even before trusting, has to be understandoing one another. I don't meanunderstanding as in villifying either. You have to have the courage and ability to start at the starting ppooint and try to find out how the person got to their pig headed, unreasonable, irrational, etc. etc. position.

We can learn to understand one antoher, but only when we all grow up enough to walk amile in the other guy's shoes and do so without bringing our own shoes along for the trip.

The problem is, I don't think that kind of understanding and moderation is going to happen any more. No one can talk when people on the ends are screaming, and no one wants to stop and figure out complicated issues when demagogues are offering answers that are sweet, simple, and wrong.

Hate sells. It's fun, quick and easy, and it makes us feel good. Who wants to have to sit and figure things our when you can just find some group to blame and hate and be done with it?

No one wants political debate. They want theater and image. No one wants news. They want entertainment. Even the press in this country has become so polarized that there's no longer any such thing as unbiased news, no one you can trust. How are we going to decide what we have to do if we can't even agree on what's happening?

Personally, I'm very pessimistic. There are some really urgent problems facing us that we're unable to deal with because we're arguing about things like homosexual marriage and school prayer.

 

[Guest]

Thanks, Mac...and by the way I love that song, 'ole lucy brown....'

And thanks again for speaking your mind, with a bit of personal experience thrown in along the way.

Sweetsubsarah, lovely child that she is...is so immersed in political hatred and imbedded ideology that an original thought has yet to cross her pretty mind, just ignore her.


There are, however, areas of concern. My distrust of government equals yours, I suspect. Yet I sense larger catastrophic events are on the horizon and not from natural disasters.

I am uneasy with the use of Federal programs and Federal troops in local areas, but if a disaster of this magnitude from a terrorist cause occurs, what choice remains?

I think one thing you should realize...on this site..there are people who applaud every disaster that befalls America. They truly hate with a vengeance seldom understood by normal people.

Much of the time here, I feel like the survivors of New Orleans, walking through a sewer. I came to this site to get my stories read and usually get them trashed by forum members. I stay and visit from time to time because I hear from folks like you that renew my faith in the goodness of many.

Thanks again...


amicus...

Ami -

I choose not to debate with you. I've learned it is pointless; you remain a broken record that sings the same scratchy song.

Therefore I tease. Makes people laugh.

However, when you ridicule my opinion because I am younger (or liberal, or female) you easily demonstrate that which you claim to abhor on Literotica.

And when you unequivocably state how people who don't share your opinion aren't human, or how those people applaud the demise of America, those statements sound suspiciously close to talking points.

But I would certainly hope you aren't repeating those right wing talking points. Because that would demonstrate how immersed in political hatred and imbedded ideology you are. So immersed that an original thought has yet to cross your ancient mind.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

The problem is, I don't think that kind of understanding and moderation is going to happen any more. No one can talk when people on the ends are screaming, and no one wants to stop and figure out complicated issues when demagogues are offering answers that are sweet, simple, and wrong.

Hate sells. It's fun, quick and easy, and it makes us feel good. Who wants to have to sit and figure things our when you can just find some group to blame and hate and be done with it?

No one wants political debate. They want theater and image. No one wants news. They want entertainment. Even the press in this country has become so polarized that there's no longer any such thing as unbiased news, no one you can trust. How are we going to decide what we have to do if we can't even agree on what's happening?

Personally, I'm very pessimistic. There are some really urgent problems facing us that we're unable to deal with because we're arguing about things like homosexual marriage and school prayer.

I'm willing to walk your backroads Doc.

I'm just one small person, with no influence or power, but it has to start somewhere. Someone has to be willing to try it. A mighty oak grows from a single acorn. A river gets progresively larger as it flows. Someone, somewhre has to start and others have to emulate that person. It can happen. It has to happen. If it dosen't, one side or the other will win and we will all lose.

 

[Weird Harold]

But the first step, even before trusting, has to be understandoing one another. I don't meanunderstanding as in villifying either. You have to have the courage and ability to start at the starting ppooint and try to find out how the person got to their pig headed, unreasonable, irrational, etc. etc. position.

I think you're on the right track Colly, but I see a step that has to be taken to make your "first" step possible -- understanding one's own position and knowing how one came to hold their own "pig headed, unreasonable, irrational, etc. etc. position."

As I told SSS in another thread, my belief about police and other first-responders running away is based in my upbringing and life experience but I don't feel any need to try to reign in those roots on that particular subject.

My vehemence on the subject of desertion is deeply rooted in perjudices I was taught as a child and reinfored by military service, but because I understand where (most of) my own prejudice lie and why they exist, I can defend those prejudices worth defending from the basis of that understanding instead of just repeating "Is too" every time an opponent resorts to the "is NOT!" argument.


I don't believe anyone and understand another's beliefs until they understand their own. That requires some critical thinking beyond slogans and promises of quick fixes to the ramifications of those slogans, promises, and catch phrases.

I was staying out of this thread because the problem seems to lead to one of my pet peeves -- the problems with the education system and that in turn leads to a lot of IS TOO and IS NOT level of debate I don't feel like adding to the site right now.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I think you're on the right track Colly, but I see a step that has to be taken to make your "first" step possible -- understanding one's own position and knowing how one came to hold their own "pig headed, unreasonable, irrational, etc. etc. position."

As I told SSS in another thread, my belief about police and other first-responders running away is based in my upbringing and life experience but I don't feel any need to try to reign in those roots on that particular subject.

My vehemence on the subject of desertion is deeply rooted in perjudices I was taught as a child and reinfored by military service, but because I understand where (most of) my own prejudice lie and why they exist, I can defend those prejudices worth defending from the basis of that understanding instead of just repeating "Is too" every time an opponent resorts to the "is NOT!" argument.


I don't believe anyone and understand another's beliefs until they understand their own. That requires some critical thinking beyond slogans and promises of quick fixes to the ramifications of those slogans, promises, and catch phrases.

I was staying out of this thread because the problem seems to lead to one of my pet peeves -- the problems with the education system and that in turn leads to a lot of IS TOO and IS NOT level of debate I don't feel like adding to the site right now.

I think you are right there WH. Understanding your own assumptions is so hard because you don't want to percieve them as assumptions. You want them to be truths. Digging down deep to find them takes effort and willpower.

 

[amicus]

For Weird Harold and Colleen Thomas....

For some reason...the debate between Winston Churchill and Lord Halifax, if memory serves, of whether or not to negotiate with Adolph Hitler comes to mind.

There are some evils that one should not attempt to negotiate with or ameliorate or compromise with.

Such is the evil as expressed by Dr. Mab and his cohorts; and there are many here. Just like Mao, fight, fight, talk, talk; they have no intention of swaying from their intention of total domination and the destruction of individual rights in favor of the collective.

Churchill knew that...and you all know his speech, " we will fight on the sea...we will fight in the fields...."

You have only to listen to the Howard Deans, the Jesse Jacksons, Wrangell, Shumer, Cokie Roberts, Ted Kennedy and a host of Left wing talking heads in the media, to fully realize that they do not want compromise, they want total domination.

This is a rare time in American political history when reason and rationality have control of the government. We need another eight to twelve years to rid ourselves of these parasites.

Work for it!


amicus...

 

[Colleen Thomas]

For Weird Harold and Colleen Thomas....

For some reason...the debate between Winston Churchill and Lord Halifax, if memory serves, of whether or not to negotiate with Adolph Hitler comes to mind.

There are some evils that one should not attempt to negotiate with or ameliorate or compromise with.

Such is the evil as expressed by Dr. Mab and his cohorts; and there are many here. Just like Mao, fight, fight, talk, talk; they have no intention of swaying from their intention of total domination and the destruction of individual rights in favor of the collective.

Churchill knew that...and you all know his speech, " we will fight on the sea...we will fight in the fields...."

You have only to listen to the Howard Deans, the Jesse Jacksons, Wrangell, Shumer, Cokie Roberts, Ted Kennedy and a host of Left wing talking heads in the media, to fully realize that they do not want compromise, they want total domination.

This is a rare time in American political history when reason and rationality have control of the government. We need another eight to twelve years to rid ourselves of these parasites.

Work for it!


amicus...

There are those who will never compromise. You could add a host of right wingers to your list, First, Delay, and Santorum near the top along with Buchanon and Robertson and their ilk. But I am not talking about fighting a war at the fringes of either viewpoint. I am talking about those of us who are less militantly wedded to the most extreme positions coming together and marginilizing the extremists on both sides. And they need to be marginalized for the good of us all.

If you like quotes:

"A house divided against itself cannot stand."

Seems very apropo to the current polarization of this country does it not?

 

[Weird Harold]

If you like quotes:

"A house divided against itself cannot stand."

Seems very apropo to the current polarization of this country does it not?

Especially for anyone with an interest in antebellum amrica and the causes of the civil war when combined with the adage "those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it."

 

[amicus]

Dear Colleen, and I used the 'dear' intentionally...were the world the way you wish it were...sighs...

You cannot 'marginalize' the extremes...it is the history of man that 'to the victor goes the spoils..." It is not that I advocate that course of action, only that I have observed that it is the way of things.

You are well read, you know the history of this planet, you must know that through conflict comes resolution.

I have argued this point with many, on many different levels, here and elsewhere. I have been unable to basically communicate beyond the facade of politics to the root and the nature of humanity as it applies fundamental nature and philosophy. With you, I have always suspected you are searching for those absolutes that control our destiny.

Those such as you, who think to 'marginalize' the extremes, are no doubt needed, to pick up the pieces when the conflict is abated. But you and those like you, will never determine the outcome.

Passion and zealotry is essential if ideas are to be nurtured and grown into reality. Men and women alike, I suppose, must be willing to risk and give their lives in a cause they see worthy. This justifies the essence of the quest, this creates hero's and heroines and sets some above others in the scheme of things.

Again...this is not of my making...but I see it to be truth, confirmed and affirmed by every ancient history I read.

We have the luxury of looking backwards into time into the conflicts of the past, the Roman Empire, the English Kings the Vikings and the Goths and a hundred more. We are pressed to see and know that we are in the midst of our own definition and that the outcome depends on those who will risk all, to insure the outcome.

It is an age old battle between good and evil and there is no 'middle groud' to 'marginalize'. Perhaps one day, one of you will getting a glimpse of my meanings but I will not hold my breath.


amicus...

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

I'm sure I am percieved as somewhat right of Hitler on this board.

Pish tosh.

Seriously. You're a very intelligent, human, conservative, etc person and argue your cases well and are willing to stop and listen to the other side even when you don't agree with them. You are probably the best representative for a liberal who has been talking to suit after suit of amicuses and has a bitter view of the right.

I think your point is correct. We need to empathize with the people on the other side of the fence of things like that, but it also helps when those over there are willing to empathize back.

It'd be great if we could all (as a strong conservative friend of mine) puts it, become friends personally with people on the other side of the divide to get rid of all this crap. Cause then you can see them as human. Now with consolidated media and talking points and this elimination of free thought it is just two sides screaming at a brick wall.

It is stupid in a way. The left needs a backbone against the right, but at the same time, it would be healthier if we could befriend those opposite to us and remember the human face behind the opinion. It's one thing to hate freedom-haters, but when that freedom-hater in your opinion is the guy who helped you out when you got into that bar fight, that's something different. It's one thing to hate the anti-woman bigot screaming for fetus rights, but when it's the guy who set you up with your first girlfriend, it's different. And only through contacts can we understand that.

While it's possibly unfair, my main problem with campus liberals and most right-wingers is that they are in an isolated circle of yes-men and make no effort to befriend or even comprehend their political adversaries. And that lack of empathy translates into a bigoted, extremist view of the other side with little relation to reality.

Sure, there's assholes out there and sometimes (sometimes often) they have a political philosophy you despise, but they're assholes becasue they're assholes, not because they have that philosophy. I'm just as careless with the absolutes as the next man, but I'd like to believe I follow that and that many others do too.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Dear Colleen, and I used the 'dear' intentionally...were the world the way you wish it were...sighs...

You cannot 'marginalize' the extremes...it is the history of man that 'to the victor goes the spoils..." It is not that I advocate that course of action, only that I have observed that it is the way of things.

You are well read, you know the history of this planet, you must know that through conflict comes resolution.

I have argued this point with many, on many different levels, here and elsewhere. I have been unable to basically communicate beyond the facade of politics to the root and the nature of humanity as it applies fundamental nature and philosophy. With you, I have always suspected you are searching for those absolutes that control our destiny.

Those such as you, who think to 'marginalize' the extremes, are no doubt needed, to pick up the pieces when the conflict is abated. But you and those like you, will never determine the outcome.

Passion and zealotry is essential if ideas are to be nurtured and grown into reality. Men and women alike, I suppose, must be willing to risk and give their lives in a cause they see worthy. This justifies the essence of the quest, this creates hero's and heroines and sets some above others in the scheme of things.

Again...this is not of my making...but I see it to be truth, confirmed and affirmed by every ancient history I read.

We have the luxury of looking backwards into time into the conflicts of the past, the Roman Empire, the English Kings the Vikings and the Goths and a hundred more. We are pressed to see and know that we are in the midst of our own definition and that the outcome depends on those who will risk all, to insure the outcome.

It is an age old battle between good and evil and there is no 'middle groud' to 'marginalize'. Perhaps one day, one of you will getting a glimpse of my meanings but I will not hold my breath.


amicus...

I do know history. I'm well versed in Military history, political history as well, less so with social history, but I find a lot of that to be bunk.

The Romans did win, and to the victor went the spoils, and when there was no worthy enemy left? They fell apart in an orgy of debauchery, corruption and ineptitude.

I could point out a lot of other examples of this.

In short, I would argue with your idea of absolutes by pointing out, there is no absolute victory. No one has ever conqueroed the world and no Empire has ever stood long past the time it eliminated all serious opposition within its spehere.

The conflict makes you strong Amicus, not the victory. When the war is won, when there is no one left to best, when there is no opposition to you imposing your will, you loose your edge. The longer the peace lasts, the less ready and able you are to repel the invasion that is inevitably coming.

The Roman's built walls, they availed them not. After Cesar conqueroed gaul and the Germanic tribes were brough to heel, you will not find another Scipio Africanus, Juilus Cesar, Octavian or Marcus Aureillius. The spirit and ability to face a tactical genius like Hannibal was long gone when lesser tacticians like Atilla beat the stuffings out of roman legions.

History teaches that lesson far more starkly than to the victor go the spoils.

 

[The_Darkness]

Much fun as it is to watch Amicus self-destruct and succumb to arguments that are either out-moded, inaccurate, or even better yet, both, I think we need to refocus here.

The political left and the political right have formed such a disparate dichotomy that it's going to take something major for them to agree on anything resembling moderation. What that major thing is, I can't possibly imagine. It won't be war because the bleeding-heart, liberal nancies won't stand for the war, even if its in defence of the country. Besides, we have a war going on right now (or two or thirteen) and it's dividing the country further than its been since the issue of States' Rights came up a century and a half ago.

Political radicalism toward one side or the other is a direct spawn of a media-controlled world. The more people can voice their opinion on a matter, the more audience they recieve, the more television coverage they recieve, etc. Their message of sympathy or antipathy prevails and the sheep looking for guidance flock to either side, while the intelligencia examine the issues and make a conscious choice based upon what they've been led to believe is reason.

Unfortunately, the moderates don't always speak up, and there's very few (by definition) extreme moderates.

Political party affiliation is probably going to see a major swing soon, and it's due to the extremists and the elected officials that express their own views as party views, leaving we, the consituents, standing alone in the dark, following blindly, or looking desperately for a new sheppard.

I'm not sure which is worse. Being the voice of reason and not speaking up because we're too used to getting smacked back down by extremists feigning an aire of intellectualism or sitting idly by, watching those extremists run our country into the ground, no matter what side of the left vs right gulf they're preaching from.

Colly and Harold....one of my history profs had a cool quote, and I have no idea where the hell he got it, or even if he just coined it himself: History does NOT repeat, but it sure seems to rhyme a lot.

 

[amicus]

Some very good points Colleen and a pleasure to read.

The fall of the Roman Empire has been addressed by many scholars and some agree that it was the advent of Christianity that led the world into a thousand years of the 'dark ages'.

They are 'dark' for we have little written record to know of what transpired.

The Greeks and the Romans hold a special place in western history as much of what we still do, came from them.

The 'King Arthur' myth of returning to the 'holy land' is entertaining but useless except as a cateloging of religious conflict between east and west, which continues to this day.

What is more important and truly a turning point in world history, is the emergence of the United States of America.

It is not and never was, an 'empire' existing by conquest and looting as was Rome.

It is not and never was a 'colonial' power, expanding and controlling such as Spain, France, Germany and England and the Dutch.

What the United States is, by way of a Declaration of Independence, a Constitution and a Bill of Rights and the rule of law, is, the first bastion of human freedom and individual liberty the world had ever seen.

The Civil War was a great challenge. The industrial revolution, was a great challenge. The Great Depression and the socialist influence in the Roosevelt era, combined with a world war, were great challenges.

Today, they challenge is more mundane. The United States is the only remaining 'super power'.

The challenge now is internal. We do not know our own value, our own place in history and we ourselves question our heritage and our past actions.

I do not spout a 'right wing, conservative' agenda, I attempt to understand and communicate our heritage as I see it.

Most don't have a clue, I think sometimes you do.

thanks


amicus...

 

[amicus]

Darkness....when you get out of school...give us a call.

 

[Weird Harold]

Colly and Harold....one of my history profs had a cool quote, and I have no idea where the hell he got it, or even if he just coined it himself: History does NOT repeat, but it sure seems to rhyme a lot.

I like that.

I did expect somone to call me on using the most common misquote of that adage about history being repeated, but I don't happento have the proper wording handy. I like your professor's wording better anyway.

 

[The_Darkness]

Ugh. So wrong. Did you read your history, or do you simply spout off what you've been told at random?

We have records of what happened between 400 and 1400 AD. LOTS OF THEM. They are not called the dark ages because we don't know what the hell happened, they're called the dark ages because technology digressed through looting, breaking, and disuse and the Church rose to power, further stamping out education of the common person. Kinda like Kansas today.

The Emergence of the United States is not so much a turning point in history as an inevitable point. Sooner or later, colonies are going to rebel. It happens all the time. The truth is that no historian or political scientist can look at the events that got us to today and say, "Yup, that's why the US is a world power." We just kick ass....its our rebellious nature, but no single event can lead us to what we've achieved.

The US is by nature, an Empire. We attack, we sieze, we colonize. More than that, we Americanize. There's a book by Thomas Friedmann called The Lexus and the Olive Tree. Read it.

The US is not, by nature free. Anyone who thinks we have a true democracy, please leave the room. What we have is a Republic...a Representative Democracy. It's out of hand to the point that our government didn't even trust the common folks to vote on presidential elections when they wrote the Constitution.

The US is not, the first bastion of freedom and liberty that the world has ever seen. That notion goes to the Athenians in the 6th Century BC. Records have suggested other such democracies existed, and Plato even says that a democracy is invariably the last stage of government before the popular government no longer reflects the needs and desires of the populace it serves and is over thrown.

For the record, we are not any where near that point yet.

The Civil War was a challenge to the validity and enforceablity of the Constitution. The Industrial Revolution was a challenge to the health of the people and to their ability to adapt to new methods of production. Surviving the Depression of the '30's was a nightmare....but what about the depression of the 1880's and 1890's? No one bitches about that because we didn't have nearly as much to loose in the way of luxury. What made the 30's so bad was the catastrohpic drought that crippled agriculture for a decade.

Surviving socialism and Roosevelt, huh? That's the only thing that got the common people out of the Great Depression mind-set and got food on their tables.

Today's challenge is not more mundane. If anything, it's more complex. There are no more wars against countries anymore. It's wars against organizations and factions. War is committed with a check book and pen on the world markets almost more effectively than it is with the warrior in the combat zone. The UN, superficial as the organization is, commits economic war on countries that don't agree with its agenda.

*sigh*

Amicus, you say you don't support a proper view of our heritage....you spit on it while spouting off your rhetoric and half-educated answers. If your view of what we did in 1781 is what you're saying, maybe you need to re-examine what was said, and most importantly, why it was said. Maybe then, you won't be as easily confused with someone with a right wing conservative agenda.

 

[The_Darkness]

Darkness....when you get out of school...give us a call.

You can expect it at the same time you understand why education, examination, and discussion is more important than delusion.

 

[amicus]

Darkness....

"...Surviving socialism and Roosevelt, huh? That's the only thing that got the common people out of the Great Depression mind-set and got food on their tables...."

Actually not...as conditions did not improve until war spending took effect in 1941, the New Deal only put the nation in debt, did not relieve the depression, create jobs or do anything but lay the foundations for the welfare state.

I suppose you are advocating a 'determinist' view of history and economics, so be it.

As I have dueled with dozens (notice the alliteration) of antagonists on this site, from as many directions, I do not really care to engage you, point by point with your 'anti' viewpoints.

Historiography was an early interest of mine and I learned that history has been written from many viewpoints.

Your 'records' from 400 to 1400, were church records, as you correctly stated, all rational thought was oppressed.

Your concepts of Greek and Roman history...are questionable as are your implications about Rennaisance Europe, the Industrial revolution, the Civil War, the drought and the great depression. And is merely ignorance that you assume the New Deal, under FDR, made things better; a little research, should you indulge, will correct your information.

Aside from that, you said nothing of interest concerning the ongoing topic.


amicus...

 

[The_Darkness]

Your 'records' from 400 to 1400, were church records, as you correctly stated, all rational thought was oppressed.

Your concepts of Greek and Roman history...are questionable as are your implications about Rennaisance Europe, the Industrial revolution, the Civil War, the drought and the great depression. And is merely ignorance that you assume the New Deal, under FDR, made things better; a little research, should you indulge, will correct your information.

Aside from that, you said nothing of interest concerning the ongoing topic.


amicus...

I'll keep this shorter....it's nearing bed time.

Not all the records are church records. Not even half of them that I've been exposed to. Nice assumption, but invariably wrong.

Greek and Roman history was my major in college. Please don't bother questioning me on it, I have an extensive library sitting not 10 feet from me.

I said nothing of the New Deal. I was refering to the CCC, something which helped build and rebuild infrastructure and gave people something to do other than be unemployed. Sorry you missed that one, I'll use smaller words next time.

And quite to the contrary, we proved quite dramatically what a gulf information can form when interpreting facts differently. As you said, you prefer a tight interpretation of history and that's the reason you sound so far to the right of the political spectrum. I maintain that history doesn't exist in a vaccum and without the social, political, and ethical influences, we can't expect to understand what the hell happened by looking at a time line. History as a whole must be broad reaching, or, like our current way-the-fuck far to the right administration, we miss the big picture.

 

[rgraham666]

I'm sure I am percieved as somewhat right of Hitler on this board.

LOL Colleen. For my own part, not hardly. You have always come across as a thoughtful, kind person who truly cares for others, and her country.

I think the biggest reason so many people have become pig headed is fear. Our 'friend's' post positively stink of it. And so do the posts of the people on the extreme 'left'. To misquote a bad movie, "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hatred, hatred leads to suffering."

I'll also bitch at our education system. We're obsessed with 'answers', with 'The Truth'. And that's what we teach. It makes sense since to my mind our educational system is a manufacturing line intended to turn out human resources suitable for employment rather than human beings suitable for citizenship.

And I'm going to heap some blame on our media. Not the press, but the entertainment part of it. Too many of us learn through our entertainment that problems are simple and they can be solved by the end of the TV episode or movie. At best the end of the season or trilogy.

Since most of us are not used to dealing with complexity, or the incomplete nature of reality, we're very vulnerable to the simplistic blandishments of demagogues.

A sad state of affairs, and like Doc, I'm not sure a situation that's going to turn out well.

But who knows? There may be a Solon, a Pericles, an Octavian or a Hadrian waiting in the wings. I sure hope so.

 

[The_Darkness]

I'll also bitch at our education system. We're obsessed with 'answers', with 'The Truth'. And that's what we teach. It makes sense since to my mind our educational system is a manufacturing line intended to turn out human resources suitable for employment rather than human beings suitable for citizenship.

I think that's the big part of it right there. There's two things operating in teaching today that I've seen and I really hate. You said the first....damn near production line career preparation. The other is not teaching a course so much as it is teaching the answers to questions....questions which invariably turn up on the test. I've heard of schools that have been busted for teaching the old ACT/SAT questions, trying to get more grant money from the gov't when their students perform better.

We're not teaching people to be philosophers and thinkers, we're training them to be robotic sycophants.

 

[amicus]

Look, asshole, the CCC, Civilian Conservation Corps, was a boondoggle of having people dig holes and fill them in again as employment. As was the silly assed Artists programs and National Parks programs...

If you have half the mind you claim, then you lack the integrity to acknowledge that most of FDR's socialist programs were abolished as unconstitutional.

Is a little intellectual honesty too much to ask, even on a Porn site?

Geez...