Laws and Incest--

[Pure]

there's talk around here of the fantasy. here's a bit of reality and
a poll, as to what you think of the German approach.


http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,827382,00.html

The European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, France ruled on Thursday to throw out a case brought by a 35-year-old Leipzig man convicted to three years in prison for engaging in an incestuous relationship with his sister.

The court said rulings by the German courts had not represented a violation of the "right to respect for private and family life," as petitioner Patrick S. had claimed. The court stated that the "German authorities had a wide margin of appreciation in confronting the issue, since there was no consensus between the Council of Europe," the human rights institution that operates the court, and "member states as to whether consensual sexual acts between adult siblings constituted a crime." Although the decision is not legally binding, it does allow a ruling to stand by Germany's highest court, the Federal Constitutional Court, upholding the conviction of Patrick S. in 2008.

Patrick S. was separated from his family at the age of three and placed in a foster family after he had been sexually abused by his biological father. He first re-established contact with his biological family at the age of 24. He then grew close to his sister, who is eight years younger and has been described as "mentally slow," and began having sexual relations with her after the death of their mother. The two produced four offspring, including two handicapped children, between 2001 and 2005. The tragic case made headlines in Germany as it worked its way through the high court in 2008.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_incest#United_States

Rhode Island repealed its criminal incest statute in 1989,[27] Ohio only targets parental figures,[27] and New Jersey does not apply any penalties when both parties are 18 years of age or older.[27] Massachusetts issues a penalty of up to 20 years' imprisonment for those engaging in sexual activities with relatives closer than first cousins[27]

===
Additional references for the case (search for 'Patrick Stuebing') :


see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Stübing


besides wiki, there is info on the case at:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6424937.stm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...over-incestuous-relationship-with-sister.html
======

It seems the sexual relationship started in the beginning of 2001, making her about 16.

 

[pellso27]

as long as you don't have kids I don't see what the problem is.

 

[Pure]

Addition

Good point, pellso.

Add to my third option a proviso that the couple NOT having children would be assumed.

But note in the present case, they did have children.

 

[lovecraft68]

Neither man nor God nor Government should control who someone falls in love with.

We're not talking molestation here. Cases like this are not fathers or mothers taking advantage of young children. These are adults of consenting age and if this is what they choose it should be no one's business.

The main argument, because removing morals and religion out of it, which the countries have to do, is the birth defects.

Personally the solution would be to have either sibling agree to be "fixed" therefore no children. However, that would set off another debate about that being within anyone's rights to enforce that.

They're not hurting anyone, leave them be. There's far more heinous things going on in the world to focus attention upon rather than people like this.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

My issue withthis is case is
1 The sister is 16. Not sure what the legal age is in Germany but this is one reason this guy should be locked up

2 The article also states the girl is "Mentaly slow" so does she have the capacity ti understand what is going on and can she legallly give consent?

So what we have here is a 24 year old male who was molested by his father, now getting sexual with his 16 year old "Mentally slow" sister.

Why is there even a question if this should be allowed.


What consenting adults do in private is their business. When someone takes advantage of someone younger or unable to understand the consequences of actions it should not be legal.

 

[TexasWife25]

I saw a study that said the risk of birth defects when siblings have children is only slightly higher then when strangers do. Apparently you have to have generations of inbreeding before birth defects become an issue.

 

[sr71plt]

SeaUrchin fingered it. This isn't simply a "consenting adults" incest story. So, this isn't a case I would use here. (Yet another Pure red herring poll?)

(There's no claim of "love" involved at all here incidentally. No information is given on what was going on in the household, controlled by who. The context claims the mother was out of the picture sometime in 2001--if you do the math--and the daughter dropped a baby within 2001. But it doesn't say where, if anywhere, the father was--and even if there, he was characterized as an abuser himeself. If there was no trustworthy parent and this 24-year-old man was master of the house, keeping a 16-year-old girl, whether or not she was his sister, pregnant, well . . .)

If you do the math, he was born in 1979, and his sister was only 16 when he had returned to the family at age 24 and she had her first child (both in 2001). She's said to be of some degree of diminished mental capacity--bringing forth the question of being a "consenting adult" at 16 doubly into question (no conclusion--not enough information is given for a conclusion). And, if he was abused himself, there's the question to what extent he perpetuated this abuse.

Find a clear-cut consenting adult incest case before running a poll like this. Not enough information given--and what is give smells to high heaven. There are red flags vigorously waving before you even start to talk about the condition of the children produced from the arrangement.

 

[Cruel2BKind]

I saw a study that said the risk of birth defects when siblings have children is only slightly higher then when strangers do. Apparently you have to have generations of inbreeding before birth defects become an issue.

Not so much worried about incest as genetically carried diseases.

There is a reason why hemophilia is called the 'King's disease' It was multiplied and increased through generations of inbreeding.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

I saw a study that said the risk of birth defects when siblings have children is only slightly higher then when strangers do. Apparently you have to have generations of inbreeding before birth defects become an issue.

I stated this in another post. If Mom and Dad are brother sister and son daughter have a kid that kid is at greater risk of genetic disesaes.

Not so much worried about incest as genetically carried diseases.

There is a reason why hemophilia is called the 'King's disease' It was multiplied and increased through generations of inbreeding.

Exactly first generation not too bad each succeeding generation of inbred children more and more issues arise.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

"Consenting Adults" is broad term no matter what country you live in. In most states in the U.S. the age of consent is 16 to 17, while you have to attain the age of 18 to be considered an adult. Yet there are circumstances that would negate both rules in the law, such as mental retardation, where the individual is unable to give consent because he or she does not understand what is happening.

Such a case is my Granddaughter whose mind is only at the stage of an eight year old while she has recently attained her majority of 18 years of age. If any normal male adult even hinted at having sex with her, he would find himself castrated and stuffed in a dumpster behind an Italian restaurant before he could get his zipper down. She will always by but a child no matter her chronological age.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

In 30 states the age of consent is 16. However Federal Child porn laws define "minor" as anyone under 18. SO if you are banging a 16 or 17 year old and it is legal in the state don't take pics or vids otherwise yu might be charged with child porn.

 

[Pure]

note to sea urchin

sea: My issue with this is case is

1 The sister is 16. Not sure what the legal age is in Germany but this is one reason this guy should be locked up
---

You don't mean she IS 16, surely you mean at the start of the sexual relationship?

However, the article does NOT say she started having sex at 16, but 'after the death of the mother', so it's quite possible she was an adult. We would need to gain more facts:

[[ADDED: It seems, however, from the ages of the children, the sexual relations may have started in 2000, which, if you do the appproximate math, would mean she was somewhere around 16.]]



Sea: 2 The article also states the girl is "Mentaly slow" so does she have the capacity to understand what is going on and can she legallly give consent?

-----

You ask this as a question. It's not stated, but it seems possible her consent was assumed, and that although she's slow, at 16 she was legally considered able to give consent (and, perhaps, to live on her own).


===

In any case the poll's question was whether US states' laws should resemble Germany's. I did not ask for a legal opinion on this particular young man's situation, which can't be determined from a couple paras of a longer article.
In some cases the state laws clearly do, e.g. Massachusetts. What do you think?

 

[lovecraft68]

My issue withthis is case is
1 The sister is 16. Not sure what the legal age is in Germany but this is one reason this guy should be locked up

2 The article also states the girl is "Mentaly slow" so does she have the capacity ti understand what is going on and can she legallly give consent?

So what we have here is a 24 year old male who was molested by his father, now getting sexual with his 16 year old "Mentally slow" sister.

Why is there even a question if this should be allowed.


What consenting adults do in private is their business. When someone takes advantage of someone younger or unable to understand the consequences of actions it should not be legal.

And this is a new situation? The only addition here is that they are siblings and in their case practically strangers when they met.

Older men take advantage of young girls all the time should they all be locked up? Should we be butting into all of their business as well?

The girls seems quite happy with him, but I suppose her feelings don't count because "we" know better.

The fact that this girl is slow would have set her up as prey for every asshole looking to get his dick wet so she is probably better off with him.

But that thought would only enter the minds of people who have not already made up their mind like you have.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

My issue with this is case is

1 The sister is 16. Not sure what the legal age is in Germany but this is one reason this guy should be locked up

You don't mean she IS 16, surely you mean at the start of the sexual relationship?

However, the article does NOT say she started having sex at 16, but 'after the death of the mother', so it's quite possible she was an adult. We would need to gain more facts:


2 The article also states the girl is "Mentaly slow" so does she have the capacity to understand what is going on and can she legallly give consent?


You ask this as a question. It's not stated, but it seems possible her consent was assumed, and that although she's slow, at 18 she was legally considered able to give consent (and, perhaps, to live on her own).


===

In any case the poll's question was whether US states' laws should resemble Germany's. In some cases they clearly do, e.g. Massachusetts. What do you think?

The article clearly states the man was 24 the girl was 8 years younger. 24-8=16 basic math.

I did state my opinion. Anything sexual done between consenting adults in private is their business not the states.

 

[lovecraft68]

Not so much worried about incest as genetically carried diseases.

There is a reason why hemophilia is called the 'King's disease' It was multiplied and increased through generations of inbreeding.

Key word there is generations, which proves the point made above.

Everyone knows retarded children who's parents were not related so it can happen to anyone.

 

[sr71plt]

However, the article does NOT say she started having sex at 16, but 'after the death of the mother', so it's quite possible she was an adult. We would need to gain more facts:

The math is in the article. He was 24 in 2001. He is 8 years older than she is. She therefore was 16 in 2001. She had her first baby by him in 2001.

Can you do math?

If he didn't sleep with her before the mother was dead, the mother died no later than early 2001--and a very short time on either side of when he showed up.

It's true that there's not enough information in the article. But all of the information that is in the article doesn't help his case a bit.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

Older men take advantage of young girls all the time should they all be locked up? Should we be butting into all of their business as well?

HELL Yes!!! Would you want some 30 or 40 something guy tried to screw your 10 year old daughter would you be okay with that.

The girls seems quite happy with him, but I suppose her feelings don't count because "we" know better.?

Nowhere in the article does it say or imply how the girl felt. Or even if she was able to decide for herself if this was something she wanted.

The fact that this girl is slow would have set her up as prey for every asshole looking to get his dick wet so she is probably better off with him.

But that thought would only enter the minds of people who have not already made up their mind like you have.

True. But I never said this was wrong. I stated there was not enough info to make a decision. Nowhere does it say that he was a loving person toward her or he was abusive. So there is no way to make that determination. You are making assumptions. I stated that I needed more info.

 

[lovecraft68]

The math is in the article. He was 24 in 2001. He is 8 years older than she is. She therefore was 16 in 2001. She had her first baby by him in 2001.

Can you do math?

If he didn't sleep with her before the mother was dead, the mother died no later than early 2001--and a very short time on either side of when he showed up.

It's true that there's not enough information in the article. But all of the information that is in the article doesn't help his case a bit.

And how many men around the world have knocked up a 16 year old. Now how many are in jail?

It's not the age that is the issue, it's who he is to her which is no one's damn business.

As I said before I am sure there are more serious crimes being left unattended while this goes on.

What it boils down to is she does not care and she is happy so whats the problem? Other than the law doing what they usually do, throwing their weight around where it doesn't matter.

 

[Pure]

Additional info

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Stübing


besides wiki, there is info on the case at:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6424937.stm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...over-incestuous-relationship-with-sister.html
======

It seems the sexual relationship started in the beginning of 2001, making her about 16.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

Lovecraft Where do you see anything about her happiness? There is nothing in the article abut how she feels. If it was your underage "mentally slow" daughter then I think you would feel differently.

 

[lovecraft68]

Where do you see anything about her happiness? There is nothing in the article abut how she feels. If it was your underage "mentally slow" daughter then I think you would feel differently.

Where is her unhappiness being cited? She's not bringing any charges, she wants to be with him.

This couple is old news and there is a long video segment about them around the net somewhere that was filmed after he was released from jail. They seemed quite happy. Happier than many of the women out there who stuck themselves with assholes.

This falls under the what happens in your house stays in your house and is no one else's business.

How would you like the law getting involved in your daughters life to any degree and tell her who she should be with?

 

[soflabbwlvr]

Where is her unhappiness being cited? She's not bringing any charges, she wants to be with him.

This couple is old news and there is a long video segment about them around the net somewhere that was filmed after he was released from jail. They seemed quite happy. Happier than many of the women out there who stuck themselves with assholes.

This falls under the what happens in your house stays in your house and is no one else's business.

How would you like the law getting involved in your daughters life to any degree and tell her who she should be with?

I'm rather thankful that the law imposes barriers between my teenage daughters and various adult sexual predators--familial or otherwise.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

Where is her unhappiness being cited? She's not bringing any charges, she wants to be with him.

This couple is old news and there is a long video segment about them around the net somewhere that was filmed after he was released from jail. They seemed quite happy. Happier than many of the women out there who stuck themselves with assholes.

This falls under the what happens in your house stays in your house and is no one else's business.

How would you like the law getting involved in your daughters life to any degree and tell her who she should be with?

My total info came from the article quoted in the first post. I never stated she was happy or unhappy, you do. Ever hear of stockholm syndrome? Ever hear of brainwashing like various cults do? Just because she seems happy doesn't mean she is or that she has the capacity to make these decisions. I'm not saying she is or isn't happy. I am saying that the article above doesnot have enough info to make an informed decision. What is there is all negative about the brother.

The Law is involved in my daughters life. It requires her to go to school, among others things. It also protects her from being taken advantage of pediophiles so I am in favor of that. Once shes 18 then it's her life until then I'll take any and all help I can to keep her safe and protect her.

 

[lovecraft68]

My total info came from the article quoted in the first post. I never stated she was happy or unhappy, you do. Ever hear of stockholm syndrome? Ever hear of brainwashing like various cults do? Just because she seems happy doesn't mean she is or that she has the capacity to make these decisions. I'm not saying she is or isn't happy. I am saying that the article above doesnot have enough info to make an informed decision. What is there is all negative about the brother.

The Law is involved in my daughters life. It requires her to go to school, among others things. It also protects her from being taken advantage of pediophiles so I am in favor of that. Once shes 18 then it's her life until then I'll take any and all help I can to keep her safe and protect her.

Westermarck effect maybe (for both of them) but I doubt stockholm. I think the problem here is no one wants to think she's happy because of the situation, it's disturbing to most and different therefore fodder for people to be ignorant of any emotions going on between them.

And you as a parent are responsible to get your daughter to school and to protect her from pedo's and predators. When the law gets involved it is usually because something has already happened.

You raise your kid, not the law or Government.

 

[sr71plt]

Of course it's the age, combined with both the girl's (because she was a girl at the beginning) mental capacities and the man's own mental stability (he' came from an abusive home--and returned to it) and whatever the home situation was at the time that are the factors here in determining capacity for adult-level consent.

I don't really care what the laws say, a 16-year-old is not mentally an adult, and a 24-year-old going after a 16-year-old is a sexual predator. It's not the age difference--it's the mental age of a 16-year-old. Anyone who has parented a 16-year-old knows that they couldn't even be a consenting adult on Mars.

And again, to the extent that there's not enough information here--it's that there isn't any information here that makes it all OK. The information, such as it is, disturbingly supports that this particular situation was not OK in terms of two mentally/emotionally-conditioned adults.

I have no trouble with consenting adults having sex. What little is given in this case doesn't pan out to consenting adults to me without more information. And, for starters, I don't think someone who wants to fuck their mother, father, sister/brother they've been raised with, grandmother, grandfather, son, daughter is all there mentally anyway. I think they're sick.

Long-term separation between biological sister and brother, which is given as the case here, would, yes, erase the incest taboo for me--if that's all that was involved. In just what is given of this case, though, it is far from all that is involved.

It's fun to watch Lovecraft song and dancing (in a rather disgusting way) to try to defend his "little" sickness, though.