Las Vegas shooting

[Adder4321]

Guns don't kill people, they just make it easier for people to kill people. Just like explosives, poisons, knives, cars, rocks and large pieces of wood.

 

[DrDelirium]

I don't particularly care for guns. The only one I own is an old bird gun my uncle left me. I've never fired it or even bought ammo for it.
I've been shot at, and didn't much care for it.
I've also been kicked and punched, which I didn't like a whole lot either. In fact, it happened a lot more than being shot at, and was more painful, since I was never actually hit by a bullet. Yet, I do not favor banning, or even registering, feet or fists, or even baseball bats or car jacks, two other weapons I've been attacked with. Knives I'm ambivalent about. They're awfully useful, but fuck, I hate it when somebody comes at me with one. I could probably be talked into a knife ban.

 

[Que]

I don't particularly care for guns. The only one I own is an old bird gun my uncle left me. I've never fired it or even bought ammo for it.
I've been shot at, and didn't much care for it.
I've also been kicked and punched, which I didn't like a whole lot either. In fact, it happened a lot more than being shot at, and was more painful, since I was never actually hit by a bullet. Yet, I do not favor banning, or even registering, feet or fists, or even baseball bats or car jacks, two other weapons I've been attacked with. Knives I'm ambivalent about. They're awfully useful, but fuck, I hate it when somebody comes at me with one. I could probably be talked into a knife ban.

Repo man?

 

[RobDownSouth]

Repo man?

Damn, Queef, you actually made me laugh out loud for once.
Oh, and Happy #MentalHealthAwarenessDay to you and yours.

 

[renard_ruse]

The Vegas Golden Knights are ahead 4-0 in their home opener after an emotional pre-game ceremony. The arena is literally a short walk from the site of the massacre.

I think I'm gonna root for the Knights this year, tired of the Kings for a bunch of reasons and looking for a new team.

 

[MGurkus]

Guns don't kill people, they just make it easier for people to kill people. Just like explosives, poisons, knives, cars, rocks and large pieces of wood.

Plus guns make it easier for toddlers to Kill themselves or a family member. I'd like to see a stupid toddler try to kill an adult with a piece of wood.

 

[DrDelirium]

Plus guns make it easier for toddlers to Kill themselves or a family member. I'd like to see a stupid toddler try to kill an adult with a piece of wood.

Why do you hate children? Don't they deserve a chance to defend themselves? Way more children are killed by their parents than vice versa. We need to level the playing field.

 

[Hypoxia]

Why do you hate children? Don't they deserve a chance to defend themselves? Way more children are killed by their parents than vice versa. We need to level the playing field.

Glocks for tots! I love it! Start-em off young, an .18 cal for ages 2 and under, .22s up to age five, .32s to age 8, then they graduate to .357s. But no .44 magnums till they hit puberty. With a driver's license they can move up to RPGs. Hit 21, get a 20mm cannon.

Sure, they'll kill people, and maybe themselves. Think of it as evolution in action.

 

[richard_daily]

I agree. Those are both problems that contribute to some of the issue. What are your thoughts on how those could be addressed?

Those aren't things that contribute to the issue, those things ARE the issue.

We need single payer health care, so that people don't have to worry about going broke if they need to go to the emergency room for physical or mental health care. We need to stigmatize mental health care. We need to treat people with dignity and provide access to decent paying jobs.

To pay for them, we need adequate funding and more taxes on corporations and the rich.

I'm not sure why you keep trying to make this about my level of gun knowledge. Are you only able to answer the questions I asked if I had some higher level of gun & ammo knowledge? I thought they were pretty general questions, and not too technical or laden with gun-speak.

Because you're calling for things to be banned that you have no concept of clue about.

I can assure you though, my becoming an expert will do little to prevent the growing gun violence in the US.

There is not "gun violence" problem. We have a gang violence problem. If you want to talk about that, I'm happy to. I have a tremendous amount of first hand experience witnessing that.

Do you feel there is a correlation between the number of guns and access to them, and the high incidents of gun violence and mass shooting incidents?

No.

 

[richard_daily]

Glocks for tots! I love it! Start-em off young, an .18 cal for ages 2 and under, .22s up to age five, .32s to age 8, then they graduate to .357s. But no .44 magnums till they hit puberty. With a driver's license they can move up to RPGs. Hit 21, get a 20mm cannon.

Sure, they'll kill people, and maybe themselves. Think of it as evolution in action.

The discipline of shooting would be a benefit to those living in poverty. I'm not being facetious.

We have had shooting ranges in grade schools, and in church basements up until about 30 years ago. The training and self-discipline that is learned through practicing the skill of shooting with a .22 goes a long way towards being a success in many ways.

I'd recommend guns for tots, but not in the pedantic way that you're presenting. I think that organized civil service can go a long way to preventing people from acting out and knowing that others are there to help them with their problems and that have their back (i.e. community leaders) will do more to prevent violence and mass shootings than anything any of the anti-gun folks are proposing.

 

[Emerson40]

Those aren't things that contribute to the issue, those things ARE the issue.

We need single payer health care, so that people don't have to worry about going broke if they need to go to the emergency room for physical or mental health care. We need to stigmatize mental health care. We need to treat people with dignity and provide access to decent paying jobs.

To pay for them, we need adequate funding and more taxes on corporations and the rich.

Because you're calling for things to be banned that you have no concept of clue about.

There is not "gun violence" problem. We have a gang violence problem. If you want to talk about that, I'm happy to. I have a tremendous amount of first hand experience witnessing that.

No.

Thanks for your replies.

 

[JasonBourneAgain]

The discipline of shooting would be a benefit to those living in poverty. I'm not being facetious.

We have had shooting ranges in grade schools, and in church basements up until about 30 years ago. The training and self-discipline that is learned through practicing the skill of shooting with a .22 goes a long way towards being a success in many ways.

I'd recommend guns for tots, but not in the pedantic way that you're presenting. I think that organized civil service can go a long way to preventing people from acting out and knowing that others are there to help them with their problems and that have their back (i.e. community leaders) will do more to prevent violence and mass shootings than anything any of the anti-gun folks are proposing.

Maybe having the same restrictions on guns as we do on cars is a start. Registration once a year, proof of insurance, no one under a certain age can fire one without a licensed and registered gun owner to supervise. This will help along with stricter control of selling weapons across state lines, etc. I would say it's possible to get the 100 killed by firearms a day in America be cut in half, but my next paragraph contradicts that pretty picture.

But, alas, I feel this argument is and has been over for a very long time. The gun culture has won and we can't put the toothpaste back into the tube.

 

[richard_daily]

Thanks for your replies.

Great discussion strategy...

When you have nothing to fall back on, be dismissive.

 

[Emerson40]

Great discussion strategy...

When you have nothing to fall back on, be dismissive.

I'm sorry, were you looking for an argument of some sort?

I wasn't being dismissive, I thanked you for answering some of my questions.

Some, not all.

There is plenty of information that supports my comments about gun reforms, the escalating gun violence in the US, and the gun problem. I could post links of studies, examples of where changes in gun policies have made significant impacts to suicide and homicide rates, but I feel it would be of little use.
Do you think it would make a difference to how you think about guns? Exactly.

You live in a nation where mass shootings (not by gangs, but buy angry whites dudes mostly, with easy access to guns) are frequent and have become commonplace, gang gun violence, and where suicide and homicide by gun are highest than any other developed nation. And you don't think guns, and the ease of getting guns are part of the problem. Cool.

Being dismissive...In every one of your replies to my posts you've pointed out that you don't feel I have sufficient gun knowledge to warrant a straightforward reply from you, and you've avoided replying to my straightforward questions.

If I wanted to engage in a pointless, circular and contradictory post-fest, I could just reply to any of AJ's or BotanyBoy's posts.

Again, thanks for your reply. I appreciate it. I have a better understanding about your thoughts and approach to guns.

 

[richard_daily]

I'm sorry, were you looking for an argument of some sort?

I wasn't being dismissive, I thanked you for answering some of my questions.

Some, not all.

There is plenty of information that supports my comments about gun reforms, the escalating gun violence in the US, and the gun problem. I could post links of studies, examples of where changes in gun policies have made significant impacts to suicide and homicide rates, but I feel it would be of little use.
Do you think it would make a difference to how you think about guns? Exactly.

You live in a nation where mass shootings (not by gangs, but buy angry whites dudes mostly, with easy access to guns) are frequent and have become commonplace, gang gun violence, and where suicide and homicide by gun are highest than any other developed nation. And you don't think guns, and the ease of getting guns are part of the problem. Cool.

Being dismissive...In every one of your replies to my posts you've pointed out that you don't feel I have sufficient gun knowledge to warrant a straightforward reply from you, and you've avoided replying to my straightforward questions.

If I wanted to engage in a pointless, circular and contradictory post-fest, I could just reply to any of AJ's or BotanyBoy's posts.

Again, thanks for your reply. I appreciate it. I have a better understanding about your thoughts and approach to guns.

Suicide isn't a problem because of access to guns, it's a mental health and poverty problem. Full stop.

People aren't trying to commit suicide because of access to guns, they're trying to commit suicide because of circumstance and mental health issues.

Mass shootings aren't frequent, and state sponsored violence in other countries is a far greater human rights concern than anything that is happening in the US other than perhaps policing practices.

If you want to focus on South Sudan, or Saudi Arabia, or Syria, I'm with you 100%. If you want to try to distract from actual human rights violations, and ignore the right of people to bear arms, you're going to have to do better than half-hearted attempts to pretend like you care about human suffering.

 

[phrodeau]

Nobody can agree on whether mass shootings are becoming more frequent or not, because the data are too sketchy. The general trend seems to be slightly upwards, but it could be dramatically increasing. We don't know.

Shouldn't we be trying to find out? Is knowledge so threatening?

https://inequalitybyinteriordesign.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/mass-shootings-comparison.png?w=619

 

[richard_daily]

Nobody can agree on whether mass shootings are becoming more frequent or not, because the data are too sketchy. The general trend seems to be slightly upwards, but it could be dramatically increasing. We don't know.

Shouldn't we be trying to find out? Is knowledge so threatening?

https://inequalitybyinteriordesign.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/mass-shootings-comparison.png?w=619

Nice that they're only measuring since 1966. The worst mass murders have occurred at the turn of the century and before. They just didn't happen to white people, so it doesn't count, right?



Mass murder hasn't been a major problem in any way, shape, or form in the last 100 years.

However, it's a great talking point to those that want to advocate for gun control.

 

[phrodeau]

Nice that they're only measuring since 1966. The worst mass murders have occurred at the turn of the century and before. They just didn't happen to white people, so it doesn't count, right?



Mass murder hasn't been a major problem in any way, shape, or form in the last 100 years.

However, it's a great talking point to those that want to advocate for gun control.

The chart shows mass shootings, not mass murders. Which turn of the century, and what mass murders do you mean?

 

[richard_daily]

The chart shows mass shootings, not mass murders. Which turn of the century, and what mass murders do you mean?

From the 1850s to the turn of the last century and, and they were shootings...

The Tusla Race Riots to name one. Wounded Knee is another.

But of course, the victims weren't white, so gun control proponents don't care. They aren't important.

Gun control has been racist propaganda since it's inception. From 1939, to 1968... every major gun control push has been fueled by racism.

 

[Emerson40]

Suicide isn't a problem because of access to guns, it's a mental health and poverty problem. Full stop.

People aren't trying to commit suicide because of access to guns, they're trying to commit suicide because of circumstance and mental health issues.

I have not dismissed the socio-economic factors when it comes to suicide, only commented on the higher rates of successful suicides when there are guns readily available. That is not hyperbole. There are plenty of studies out there that have determined this, and have found that there is a reductions in suicide rates (and homicides) when guns were not at hand and in the parts of the US where there are reductions in firearm ownership.
You can start with Miller et al (2005) for the US, or try Ajdacic-Gross et al (2006) if you want something international that isn't South Sudan, Saudi Arabia, or Syria.

Mass shootings aren't frequent, and state sponsored violence in other countries is a far greater human rights concern than anything that is happening in the US other than perhaps policing practices.

Unfortunately, the data doesn't support your claim that mass shootings aren't frequent.
There is plenty of debate as to how to define a mass shooting, or public mass shooting, but the numbers are there.

"Mass public shootings have become more frequent and more deadly in recent years, the Congressional Research Service concluded in a report that could reignite the Capitol Hill debate over stiffer controls on firearms.

Deaths and wounds are up, reaching an average of more than seven victims killed and more than six wounded in shootings from 2010 through 2013. That is up from an average of about six deaths and five wounded per incident in the 1980s, the CRS said in the report, released late last week.

It also shows the frequency has increased to 74 days between incidents this decade, compared with 282 days between killings in the 1970s.

“These decadelong averages suggest that the prevalence, if not the deadliness, of ‘mass public shootings’ increased in the 1970s and 1980s, and continued to increase, but not as steeply, during the 1990s, 2000s and first four years of the 2010s,” said the report authors, William J. Krouse and Daniel J. Richardson."​

If you want to focus on South Sudan, or Saudi Arabia, or Syria, I'm with you 100%. If you want to try to distract from actual human rights violations, and ignore the right of people to bear arms, you're going to have to do better than half-hearted attempts to pretend like you care about human suffering.

Well, I did say "developed nations"... how about we stick with those for now.

• Germany - to purchase a gun, you would need to pass a psychiatric evaluation, have knowledge of weapons and the laws related to them, and have a need for the weapon.
• Finland - you must apply for a license and can only purchase firearms if you are an active member of a regulated shooting club, pass an aptitude test, submit to a police interview and background check, and show you own a proper gun storage unit.
• Italy - to secure a permit to own a gun, you must establish a genuine, legitimate reason to possess a firearm, and submit to an extensive background check which includes criminal and mental health components.
• France - applicants will have their reason for the gun purchase reviewed, and must pass a criminal background check, as well as mental and health records are reviewed.

Before you say it, shootings and suicides are not non-existent in those countries, but the overall rates are significantly (bigly) higher in the US.

But gangs you say, and those violent blacks (Chicago)... You should note that the 'white' gun murder rates in the US are well over twice (substantial, yes?) than the murder rates in any of the above noted (developed) countries.


On the topic of mass shootings, it would be remiss of me to not mention Australia.

In brief, Australia had 13 mass shootings between 1979 and 1996. The turning point for them was the Port Arthur massacre in '96, when a gunman killed 35 people.

In the wake of this tragedy, the government implemented new gun control laws, including bans on certain weapons, and and a buy-back program that cost big $$.

It was no easy undertaking and politically, it was pretty volatile there for a while.
But, they stayed the course and haven't had a mass shooting since 1996.

In addition, both gun suicides and homicides fell. It doesn't mean guns don't exist in Australia (because they do), or that there is no crime (there is), but when you look at the changes in the murder rates (US is 5x higher per 100,000) and robbery rates (US is 2x higher), there is no ignoring the data.
I point this out only because the NRA and gun-nuts would like you to think that removing guns would result in crime being widespread and out of control, and this simply is not supported by the data or facts.

In fact, if you turn the NRA thinking around, with the number of guns and gun owners in the US, it should be the safest nation in the world, yes?

I think what the Australia example also shows is that a nation can experience a cultural shift when it comes to guns, and guns in everyday life. Their tipping point was Port Arthur.
One would think Sandy Hook would have been such a tipping point for the US, but the Aussies didn't have a domestic gun industry opposing change, and 'contributing' to the campaigns of elected officials.


I expect you to arbitrarily dismiss most of the above because you are determined to circumvent any and all things that point to guns being the problem, or part of a problem. As I said in an earlier post, I get it, y'all love your guns. I have no belief that I am going to sway yours, or any other gun-totin' 'Merican attitudes about guns. If classrooms with dead children, and body counts like those in Vegas can't do it, what the fuck am I gonna do with some data and a few facts.

 

[Ghostee]

So the entire Vegas shooter story has been totally changed with facts being leaked found or assumptions being exposed as anti gun bullshit and now its becoming a big conspiracy while the media slowly drops it from coverage and the public attention that is asking questions the media use to ask.

Since the democrats can't make any money off it they will drop it also and now the lawyers are trying to sue the gun manufactures because the parts they made and sold worked before the grieving period ends and common sense returns.

Always nice to know when you die so many sick people will try to profit from it !
But please carry on with the blame game and swing that ban hammer all you want!

 

[MGurkus]

No.

http://www.thestand.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/man-with-blinders.jpg

 

[McFlippant]

There is factually only one thing that has any legal possibility of practically changing what socialists charge is a "gun problem" in America today: repealing the 2nd Amendment with a new Amendment that directly states the exact infringement they demand on law-abiding American's natural right to keep and bear.

Why socialists fantasize continuing to pimp the same inane points over and over and over still has any chance at accomplishing what it clearly hasn't/doesn't, is the very definition of insanity itself.

 

[Emerson40]

Nice that they're only measuring since 1966. The worst mass murders have occurred at the turn of the century and before. They just didn't happen to white people, so it doesn't count, right?



Mass murder hasn't been a major problem in any way, shape, or form in the last 100 years.

However, it's a great talking point to those that want to advocate for gun control.

I ask this solemnly, and not to flame you, but do you seriously not consider these mass shooting events, since 1949, 'a major problem'?

(in order of body count, not chronological)

• 2015 - Roseburg OR, 10 dead
• 2009 - Fort Hood, 13 dead
• 2015 - San Bernardino, 14 dead
• 1986 - Edmond OK, 14 dead
• 1966 - UT Austin, 16 dead
• 1984 - San Isidro CA, 21 dead
• 1991 - Killeen TX, 23 dead
• 2012 - Sandy Hook, 27 dead
• 2007 - VA Tech, 32 dead
• 2016 - Orlando, 49 dead
• 2017 - Las Vegas, 50+ dead

As you reflect on that, add to this the many, many injured, and the lives of family, friends, and colleagues irreparably damaged from these mass shootings.


You don't see this as a problem?

 

[phrodeau]

From the 1850s to the turn of the last century and, and they were shootings...

The Tusla Race Riots to name one. Wounded Knee is another.

But of course, the victims weren't white, so gun control proponents don't care. They aren't important.

Gun control has been racist propaganda since it's inception. From 1939, to 1968... every major gun control push has been fueled by racism.

Tulsa was 1921, and Wounded Knee was a US military action.