Language Barrier

[EmeraldKitten]

I'm not one to discriminate. I'm open-minded, etc.
But.... this bothers me slightly.

The other day in Columbus a 4 year old girl drowned in a pond at their apartment complex.
The father called 911, the operator finally understood the problem... he spoke english, but it was broken and very bad. The 911 operator was trying to tell the father that an ambulance was on it's way. The father wasn't understanding. In one minute, they had an interpreter on the line to tell him the ambulance was coming.
The father had hung up and left, driving his daughter to the hospital.
Here's the link to the story:
http://www.wbns10tv.com/?sec=news&story=sites/10tv/content/pool/200705/616040679.html

I really hope that the dispatcher doesn't get in trouble... however it was said that the department didn't think they needed to make any job positions for Spanish speaking dispatchers because of the help line that got them a translator.

I guess my problem is this- come to American? Speak the language. I wouldn't permanently move to another country and just expect to speak English all day.

In relation to that- they were talking about how non-English speaking residents were afraid to come to court because they wouldn't be understood. Hmmm. Right. So they've got translators in court rooms. Nifty.

Also, I guess what kinda makes this burn me up a little bit- a couple years ago there was a fire in Columbus, in an apartment that housed 10-12 Mexicans. Some of them got out, but there were still a couple/few people trapped inside.
One of the customers at the shop is a fireman, and he was in charge that day. He understood there were people inside. It was not safe for them to proceed, and he wasn't sending his men in to die.
Well, the survivors threw a fit, said it was discrimination, and they just recently won the lawsuit.
They said it was a language barrier. No, it wasnt. The fireman knew enough Spanish to understand that there were people in there dying, but he could do nothing about it.
So not only does he feel responsible for the deaths, but they were threatening to sue him personally, not just the department or the city or wherever.

When I worked at McD's, non-English speaking people would come in, and you could only guess what they were trying to order. It pissed me off. I can't understand ya, so ya get what I give ya. Sorry 'bout it.
Same with cutting hair. Ever try and do a haircut blindfolded? That's kinda what it's like.

*Sigh* Okay, I feel better. I just think it's senseless.
I hope I didn't offend anyone. Don't be mean, I can't take it! LOL.

Proceed with your day.
Make it a great one!

 

[angelicminx]

Right or wrong I agree with you whole heartedly.

 

[cloudy]

I'm not picking on you, Em, but I just have to throw this out there:

The only countries that don't automatically teach their children a second language are those that are english speaking. Look at how many people here speak english as a second language: Lauren, Snoopy, CrazyAngel, FatDino, Nirvana (and I'm just guessing, because she speaks Afrikaans), Dampy, and that's just off the top of my head.

It is the absolute height of arrogance to expect the world to conform to us. What makes us so damn special that we don't have to expend even a minimal effort to communicate with others, and that they have to do all the work?

eta: I understand the need to learn the language of the country if you are relocating there permanently, however - would you be fluent from the first day you stepped foot in your new home? Of course you wouldn't. You would still be learning, or just beginning to learn. Isn't it a bit unrealistic to expect an immigrant to be perfectly fluent in American english the minute they cross the border? Or even easily understandable?

I'd love to ask each and every person I hear making this argument just how long their families have been speaking english. Americans have forgotten that aside from those like me, this is a country of immigrants.

How disappointing.

 

[sutherngent985]

I have to agree with EK on this one. I wouldn't go to another non-English speaking country and expect to use English, but this is America. We speak English. If you want to be understood, either learn the language or get a whatever-language-you-speak to English dictionary and use it. I have no problem with people immigrating to this country legally but first they have to realize they will need to learn English. Most cities have night classes that teach English as a second language...use them.

 

[TxRad]

Years ago to become a citizen of this country, you had to take classes in citizenship, American history, and ENGLISH, among others.....

English or America's version of it, is the official language of this country.... If you don't know it, then learn t or leave.... simple fix for the problem....JMHO.....And it doesn't matter who you are....

 

[cloudy]

*delete*

 

[cloudy]

How sad.

No wonder we've gone from the country the world looked up to to the country the world despises.

 

[TxRad]

How sad.

No wonder we've gone from the country the world looked up to to the country the world despises.

How's that? Nothing has changed here but an invasion of non English speaking people who don't want to learn our ways or language.... and that's by their own admission.

 

[cloudy]

How's that? Nothing has changed here but an invasion of non English speaking people who don't want to learn our ways or language.... and that's by their own admission.

How do you know that? Have you asked them?

There may be some that feel that way, sure, but a majority? I seriously doubt it.

 

[TheeGoatPig]

Years ago to become a citizen of this country, you had to take classes in citizenship, American history, and ENGLISH, among others.....

English or America's version of it, is the official language of this country.... If you don't know it, then learn t or leave.... simple fix for the problem....JMHO.....And it doesn't matter who you are....

Actually, we don't have an official language. English is the most used language, but Spanish has been creeping up in percentage over the last few decades.

 

[sutherngent985]

eta: I understand the need to learn the language of the country if you are relocating there permanently, however - would you be fluent from the first day you stepped foot in your new home? Of course you wouldn't. You would still be learning, or just beginning to learn. Isn't it a bit unrealistic to expect an immigrant to be perfectly fluent in American english the minute they cross the border? Or even easily understandable?

Thats not what I was saying. All I am saying is they need to learn English...I wouldn't expect them to be fluent as soon as they arrived either. But I think they do need to learn it or find some other way to communicate with us. At the same time, I think other languages should be taught as required courses in both elementary (the younger kids start the easier it is for them) and high school in this country. As you say we are citizens of the world, not just this country.

 

[TxRad]

How do you know that? Have you asked them?

There may be some that feel that way, sure, but a majority? I seriously doubt it.

I'll see if I can find the news articles from last summer when all the marches were going on.

From personal experience.

I just had three slabs pored last week. The man who owns the company is from Mexico and has been here for forty years. He is now a citizen and he speaks very good English as do his sons....

of the crew of five Mexicans that work for him, one speaks better English than I do, two more speak broken English. The other two Won't even try to learn English.

The reason. They are here until they make X number of dollars and then it's back to Mexico to live out their life at leisure. And that is straight from them through one of the other guys.

 

[cloudy]

I'll see if I can find the news articles from last summer when all the marches were going on.

From personal experience.

I just had three slabs pored last week. The man who owns the company is from Mexico and has been here for forty years. He is now a citizen and he speaks very good English as do his sons....

of the crew of five Mexicans that work for him, one speaks better English than I do, two more speak broken English. The other two Won't even try to learn English.

The reason. They are here until they make X number of dollars and then it's back to Mexico to live out their life at leisure. And that is straight from them through one of the other guys.

Right, so they're not here permanently. I don't think I'd be bothered, either, if I wasn't planning to stay - English is a damn hard language to learn. The ones that are staying have already learned it, right?

Sort of proves my point.

 

[TxRad]

Right, so they're not here permanently. I don't think I'd be bothered, either, if I wasn't planning to stay - English is a damn hard language to learn. The ones that are staying have already learned it, right?

Sort of proves my point.

But their not permanent is going to be eight to ten years.... and from what I was told, this is a fair number of people. I've worked overseas and yes I learned enough of the languages to get by. I didn't have to but I did. I just think the same applies here.

 

[cloudy]

But their not permanent is going to be eight to ten years.... and from what I was told, this is a fair number of people. I've worked overseas and yes I learned enough of the languages to get by. I didn't have to but I did. I just think the same applies here.

...and I agree.

I suppose I've just heard the argument too much, and it just seems a tad hypocritical that we expect the entire world to learn English, but can't be bothered to learn another language ourselves.

 

[cantdog]

It really hits the fan in those two places, the health care system and the legal system.

Communicating is important. I think it's a snarlup about the fireman story, and it reflects the state of a real difficulty. But really, the 911 story she starts off with? That's just sad. There have been Spanish neighborhoods in Columbus for quite some time, eh? How deep in pigheaded denial do you have to be? If your job is to provide folks with emergency services, and you put Joe Yahoo on dispatch, you're going to lose a few, man. You're going to lose a few, and every one of them is going to be a Spanish speaker or perhaps a tourist.

I guess it's fine to write off tourists. Fuck 'em, let 'em die.

But if the city of Columbus had hired a dispatcher who only spoke Spanish, counting on some on-line handy-dandy translator service? THEN the ones whose 4-year-olds receive no care would be anglos. Okay to write those people off? Get pissed off at them too. Because they took Spanish in high school and promptly forgot it, so aren't they just shit out of luck. Tough titty, right?

 

[Vermilion]

...and I agree.

I suppose I've just heard the argument too much, and it just seems a tad hypocritical that we expect the entire world to learn English, but can't be bothered to learn another language ourselves.

Ahh - and there's the crux - *anybody* moving to another country should make an attempt to learn the language and I think the initial poster was trying to make that point.
There's a possibility that I may move to Sweden in the next few years, if that is confirmed then I will immediately begin to learn Swedish, even though the majority of Swedes speak better English than most UK citizens. I would just be very uncomfortable living in a country when I didn;t speak the language and wasn't trying and why shouldn;t that apply to others?

On campus there are a large community of Chinese students because they pay full fees and the university likes the money. I have no problems with them being Chinese and the few I've spoken to are very nice people - the problem is that many of them do not speak good enough English to hold a conversation. There is a black market here at the uni in papers written in good English that are bought by foreign students who don;t speak the language well enough to write it. I walk past chattering groups speaking Chinese and laughing and I find it frustrating that they aren;t even trying to speak the language or integrate into the community - I mean heck - they've come here to study - why not make the most of it and actually experience the culture? I'm not much of a linguist, but even if I go somewhere for just a week or two I'll learn some basic phrases.

bleh - did that make any sense? I am seriously sleep deprived atm.
x
V

 

[R. Richard]

Several people have made reference to 'moving to another country and learning the language.'

Let us take a country, say China. There is no spoken Chinese language. There is Northern Chinese and there is Southern Chinese. The two languages are so different that the people from North and South can't talk to one another. So, you can't move to China and learn the language. [I have been told, by Chinese, that trying to understand the 'other Chinese' is a waste of time.]

Now, let us get to the real problem. If you want to be a technical translator for the US government, you have to arrange to be born somewhere where the langauge from which you are translating is the native language, you have to attend schools, at least through high school, that use the native language, you have to have a degree in the specialty in which you are doing the technical translation. Finally, you have to be a fluent user of English. [Why? The story Cinderella is a translation from a French story where Cinderella wore a fur slipper to the ball, not a glass slipper. The screw up in translation is considered 'charming.' Mix up fur and glass in a technical translation and you are in BIG trouble.]

 

[cantdog]

Nah, man, it's plain ass racism, is all it is. Down in New Mexico, I referred to Cerrillos Road pronouncing it seRREEyos, and they all corrected me by thickening their New Mexico accent to direct me to seRILLus Road. Not giving a god damn inch, because even when it IS Spanish, it ain't Spanish.

Not discrimininating would be hiring dispatchers who spoke anything they liked, and then dealing with the fallout. Paying attention would be having the ability to provide the services to the whole town. But what they are doing? Hiring only igno-gringos? I think their legal staff might have a hard row to hoe, here, to keep a discrimination suit from succeeding. There's a great plenty of ignorant Spanish speakers need jobs, too. Ignorance is clearly no barrier in the eyes of town policy makers for dispatchers on a 911 line.

 

[cloudy]

Nah, man, it's plain ass racism, is all it is. Down in New Mexico, I referred to Cerrillos Road pronouncing it seRREEyos, and they all corrected me by thickening their New Mexico accent to direct me to seRILLus Road. Not giving a god damn inch, because even when it IS Spanish, it ain't Spanish.

Not discrimininating would be hiring dispatchers who spoke anything they liked, and then dealing with the fallout. Paying attention would be having the ability to provide the services to the whole town. But what they are doing? Hiring only igno-gringos? I think their legal staff might have a hard row to hoe, here, to keep a discrimination suit from succeeding. There's a great plenty of ignorant Spanish speakers need jobs, too. Ignorance is clearly no barrier in the eyes of town policy makers for dispatchers on a 911 line.

Indeed.

I have to wonder - if an American were in a foreign country, had to call their version of 911 for help, and couldn't get an English speaker on the line (not likely to happen, but let's pretend), would their response when their child died be "oh, damn! I should've learned the language"?

Of course it wouldn't. But then, Americans are special.

 

[angelicminx]

No, I don’t expect people relocating to this country to be fluent in English, but I do expect them to have at least a working knowledge of English and the willingness to become fluent.

English is the most spoken language of the United States.

Would I be fluent in the language of the country I chose to relocate to? Not likely. Would I be able to communicate? You bet. If I didn’t have enough knowledge of the language for basic communication, I wouldn’t go.

As to visiting, I do think a basic understanding of English is necessary. Visiting Mexico, Spanish; Italy, Italian; France, French; Germany, German; Russia, Russian; etc.

My supervisor is Russian. She speaks English very well, has been here 10 years and is still learning the language, because of the sheer volume of slang and words spelled the same with different pronunciation and meaning. Her husband speaks very little English and refuses to learn. Her children are college age and fluent. She translates for Russian immigrants. She has said that there are several older adults who simply refuse to learn English. What happens to them when there is no one around to translate? How do they get help in an emergency?

Her husband is going through a bout of depression that has lasted several years. His specialty is finance, but he can’t get a job. She supports the household. If you know Russian culture you know that fact just adds to his depression. Still he refuses to learn. At the same time, to save his ego, she leaves all financial matters to him, but he has to ask her to translate for him.

The first part of the year she was translating for two pregnant immigrants with various doctors. First time pregnant. Take the fear of being a first time mom and increase the fear ten-fold. There was a problem with the first mother’s child. My supervisor had to learn the English terminology before she could explain to the mother what was happening and what needed to be done. Fortunately she has an unquenchable thirst for knowledge and everything was fine. Through this she was able to impress on the mother the importance of learning English. She’s only allowed to translate for a Russian family for one year, after that they are on their own.

I had the daunting task of filing individual tax returns for a group of Mexicans who either did not speak English or spoke very little English. Taxes are hard enough to explain to someone fluent in English. To try and explain through a translator… whew.

I don’t expect the entire world to learn English. Just the ones who intend to come to the United States. I don’t think a working knowledge of the majority-use language in the country you plan to visit is asking too much. I am not fluent in, nor do I have a working knowledge of, another language. At this time I do not intend to visit another country. Should that change I will certainly make an effort to learn the language.

I have made the attempt to learn Spanish. I still don’t have a working knowledge. I know a little, very little, German, Korean, and French. Not even enough to get by.

Based on this site, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_in_the_United_States, I should learn 337 different languages? Okay, that’s a little extreme. I should just learn Spanish, Chinese (how many varieties are there besides Mandarin?), French, German, Italian, Polish, Greek, Russian, Tagalog, Vietnamese, all the Native American languages, and Hawaiian. Let’s throw in Korean, Persian, Thai, Japanese, Dutch, Arabic, and Portugese just for good measure. That’s a reasonable expectation to be able to communicate with the majority of the population.

I do think that 911 operators need to be bilingual, simply for the fact that in an emergency English knowledge may escape those who use it as a second language. Which languages? English and whatever is the prominent language for the area in which they work. Some areas of the US are multilingual, therefore it would be a good idea for the 911 operators in those areas to multilingual as well.

 

[cantdog]

My friend Camillo DiBiase was born in Maine, and he went to school here, and he speaks Maine. His grandfather had to pick up English on the fly. His grandfather learned enough to get by, but he had to go to work dock wallopin, ditch digging, and stevedoring. He went to his grave speaking a thickly accented English with a limited technical vocabulary. His son came over very young and retained a light accent, although John speaks damn good English. And Camillo, like I say, knows maybe fourteen words in Italian, including muddafucka-you and cawka-sawka-you, which he says, tongue in cheek, that he learned from his grandfather.

Even if you learn the language in a new country, there's a transitional period, and it is happening all the time. What the hell? You just can't get treated for some health condition if no one can understand what you have for symptoms, and you sure as hell aren't going to get justice out of a cop on the beat if he has no idea what just happened. Even if every Spanish speaker in Ohio was putting forth angelic effort to acclimate, there would still be situations where someone would need to understand Spanish, and I would hope to hell a 911 line would be one of those situations.

 

[cloudy]

Based on this site, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_in_the_United_States, I should learn 337 different languages? Okay, that’s a little extreme. I should just learn Spanish, Chinese (how many varieties are there besides Mandarin?), French, German, Italian, Polish, Greek, Russian, Tagalog, Vietnamese, all the Native American languages, and Hawaiian. Let’s throw in Korean, Persian, Thai, Japanese, Dutch, Arabic, and Portugese just for good measure. That’s a reasonable expectation to be able to communicate with the majority of the population.

Now you're just being silly. It doesn't help make your point, minx, it just shows that you're not willing to honestly consider anyone else's. Sorry.

 

[R. Richard]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_in_the_United_States[/url], I should learn 337 different languages? Okay, that’s a little extreme. I should just learn Spanish, Chinese (how many varieties are there besides Mandarin?), French, German, Italian, Polish, Greek, Russian, Tagalog, Vietnamese, all the Native American languages, and Hawaiian. Let’s throw in Korean, Persian, Thai, Japanese, Dutch, Arabic, and Portugese just for good measure. That’s a reasonable expectation to be able to communicate with the majority of the population.

There are generally considered to be seven language groups within Chinese. There is considerable discussion as to whether the seven groupings are languages or dialects of the same language. To add to the confusion, there are also numerous dialects within the language groups. The main split is considered to be Mandarin [Norhtern] and Cantonese [Southern.]

I play kung-fu and sometimes have to deal with people who speak only one of the Chinese language groups. If I get people from two different Chinese language groups, they literally can't understand each other and they wind up speaking what they imagine is English.

 

[cantdog]

Isn't it the 21st Century that they said was the one that Spanish would become the majority language in the contiguous 48?

I mean, South Africa had to make the adjustment and recognize, finally, that the country was not, after all, essentially an English speaking place.

Not that any of those dire demographic predictions ever actually come true. There's always some new demographic which intervenes before it can happen that way.

A fair proportion of the Spanish speakers did not move here, originally, you know. We moved there. They called it the War with Mexico.

So if you were conquered by some crowd of swaggerers who spoke a different language, would you be very careful to arrange for a 'working knowledge' of that language 'beforehand' and make every effort to learn the new language of the conquerors as soon as possible? Did speakers of Mohock or Seminole feel the same way?

Serillus Road, indeed.