Lack of initiative

[pleasteasme]

I've thought about starting this thread for a very long time.

The springboard for this thought is from teaching high schoolers. They have shown me a very alarming lack of initiative (yes, I realize this is a generalization). I have students that don't even want to think how to get to Chapter 4 in their textbooks...they want a page number! It seems that they are so used to being spoon-fed information that they don't even know how to search out information when they need to unless it is through google or ask jeeves.

Admittedly, I do have students that have plenty of initiative and are real go-getters. However, a much larger percentage of my student population is sorely lacking when it comes to initiative or motivation.

Why do you think this it?

Of course, I have my own theories that I will reveal as time goes on but, I would like to hear some comments about why you think there is a general lack of initiative in today's youth.

 

[eudaemonia]

I think it's primarily a two-pronged problem: too many parents leave discipline and "learning" up to the schools, and schools can't be made any more boring if they tried. Schools, public schools in particular, are testing-taking mills, not places where children are taught how to learn for themselves. Kids also don't naturally learn in 40-50 minute blocks of time. If a child is engaged in what they're doing why stop the process of discovery and learning at arbitrary intervals? (See my post above about Montessori.)

Please don't take this as flame-bait if you're a public school teacher, but I don't see the structure of public school as it currently exists being fixable at any point in my lifetime. Time and again I see more tax money thrown at it as if it's the ultimate and only solution. It just isn't.

 

[Guest]

 

[TBKahuna123]

Parents need to know what is going on in their kids' lives!!!!!!!

How about Parents need to WANT to know what is goingon in their kids' lives? Too often I think parents these days neglect their parental responsibilities and take the easy way out. Pretty soon their kids are either ignored, or worse yet, actually run the household and the parents. I have friends who are like this and thier kids are terrors! It's so bad that we rarely ever get together as a group anymore because none of us can figure out how to tell them we don't want to deal with their kids. On the flip side, I also have some friends who are very caring and conscientious parents, so it's not everyone these days. Still, I see our generation really sliding in regard to parenting and discipline, and this I think affects motivation and work ethic very strongly.

I do tend to agree with Eudaemonia though, too much emphasis is put on standardized testing, and things these days. Programs like No Child Left Behind are a great concept, but they put so much emphasis on testing that classes become more about preparing kids for those tests. Around here it's become so much about those tests that teachers are more worried about their kids' scores and how they'll affect THEIR jobs than they are about how much the kids learn.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for teacher testing and accountability and all that, because I do think we have too many incompetent teachers. Still, I remember that my favorite classes, and the ones I always did well in, were English and Science. These classes were more hands on and less memorize and repeat this information type of classes. Personally I think our kids should be tested more on how they write rather than if they can remember the facts and pick the right option on the multiple choice test. That's how it was when I was in school and that's how it was when I was in college.

I'm also opposed to the recent trend to do away with traditional letter grades and honor rolls and such, so as not to discourage below average students. Personally I think this removes a motivational tool in favor of not hurting someone's feelings. It's not like that in the real world, and isn't that what education is preparation for in the first place? I think too many parents view school as an 8 hour a day babysitter they get for free, and that's just not right. You have to be involved in your child's education, not just put all the responsibility on the teachers and schools.

But that's just my opinion.

 

[Recidiva]

I think the problem might be in considering this a problem.

We enforce education on kids, they don't have a choice, so their choice is to ignore it.

It would be great if we gave kids other options in life.

I've often wondered why in hell we make athletes get good grades in school. That's nice, if it's what they want, but wouldn't it also be nice to allow people to focus on what they want, whether it is mechanical, social, sports or otherwise, rather than ram information they don't find valuable down their throat and judge them on their absorption of it?

There are high schools for kids with talent and tech schools. Time to make some sports schools and other schools for those kids who don't want the intellectual fast track and have no interest in study or what it might bring them. The school system is intended to make a well rounded individual, but many people are perfectly happy being a different shape.

Education is a wonderful thing, but choosing to be educated is one of the prerequisites to absorption. Giving more people a chance to do what they're good at (it may not be math or language absorption and testing of same) would increase people's ability to feel in charge of their life, their choices, and realize they're not alone in their disinterest in books.

 

[midwestyankee]

Some almost random thoughts on the subject:

One of the most popular posters when I was in college shoed the text of an essay condemning "today's youth" as being lazy, indifferent to the challenges of the times, ignorant of history, and unwilling to take their rightful place in society in favor of self-indulgence. The essay was written by Adolph Hitler and merely showed that concern for the ability of the younger generation to assume leadership in society has been around for a long, long time. I think that someone may even have found a similar text by Aristotle to further make the point.

It was very common to hear adults in the late 1960's and early 70's bemoan the lack of drive, civility, and initiative among the youth of my generation. After all, we had flaunted society's rules as a matter of pride. Sex, drugs, and rock and roll held equal power as a slogan for the times along with Make Love, Not War. How could anyone expect such a generation to ever amount to much. Well, whether you prefer Bill Clinton or George W. Bush, each came out of the Peace/Love generation. Bill Gates didn't do too badly, either. Sure, these are only some exceptional examples but you get my point, I'm sure.

Life is much easier than it used to be. We are all encouraged by technology and other modern conveniences to work less. When was the last time you stood in line to cash a check in a bank, or watched a supermarket cashier punch prices into a cash register? When was the last time you turned on your television set, decided that there wasn't anything of value on the 4 channels of available programming, and engaged your children in a board game or picked up a book? If you're a stock investor, when was the last time you did your own primary research by reading 10-Q reports instead of accepting the "wisdom" of the Charles Schwab or Fidelity website analyses?

Now, having said all this, I sometimes get irritated when my son spends more time in front of the television set than I used to do. It bothers me to hear my teacher friends tell about students who want special praise because they did their homework. I know dozens of teachers and have taught at every grade level from 4th grade through graduate school. I know these complaints first hand. They are not invalid and it certainly does seem that the students with the least initiative come from parents who show little interest in their children's education. I don't have an answer for that problem. At the risk of offending someone, Darwin did have an answer for it. People who let their children live dangerously - and attending school with much less than full attention is a dangerous act - produce unproductive children who are likely to continue the practice.

Perhaps I should stop and let someone else have some space here.

 

[eudaemonia]

I think too many parents view school as an 8 hour a day babysitter they get for free,
.
.
.

But that's just my opinion.

I be surprised if you disagree with me on this, but the fact of the matter is, school is not *free*. Nearly all taxpayers in this country chip into to the public school system. The cost of instruction per child in public vs. private school is seriously unbalanced.

 

[Norajane]

There's a lot of young people that come to the How To board and ask questions they could have researched themselves, and even when you provide links, they don't want to go to the trouble of reading them.

There's a thread right now where the guy and his wife are having trouble with lubrication during PIV, I provided a link with one page of education on different types of lubes, and he came back and asked if he's supposed to put it on his cock or what. Had he bothered to look at the link, he would have found his answer in the first paragraph, but he said he doesn't like to read how-to manuals and stuff.

Teens who never have to do anything to take care of themselves or others aren't going to see the value in learning how to do it.

 

[Recidiva]

"Youth today love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority, no respect for older people, and talk nonsense when they should work. Young people do not stand up any longer when adults enter the room. They contradict their parents, talk too much in company, guzzle their food, lay their legs on the table and tyrannize their elders"

Socrates, 500 B.C.

 

[EJFan]

They have shown me a very alarming lack of initiative (yes, I realize this is a generalization). I have students that don't even want to think how to get to Chapter 4 in their textbooks...they want a page number! It seems that they are so used to being spoon-fed information that they don't even know how to search out information when they need to unless it is through google or ask jeeves.

i guess there are a lot of ways to look at this and there have been some really fantastic responses to this point.

given the chance to think about these sorts of things i tend to come up with more philosophical answers. i think the need for a page number, for example, is illustrative of how kids are looking for specifics. who can blame them? our society is moving toward being more and more specific all the time... there's less chance for inference, interpretation and thought this way but i think that's the direction we're headed. and let's face it... given the choice between finding "chapter 4" where it may be and looking for an actual page number, i'd go for the page number myself. einstein never knew anyone's phone number because he trained himself to save memory for things he couldn't look up. i realize the page number thing is just an anecdotal thing here but i think my analogy holds true to yours.

things like zero-tolerance and no child left behind have contributed to this thinking as well. there are fewer and fewer chances to administer rewards and punisments on an individual basis... there's criteria and a cookie-cutter approach that apply to everyone because god forbid someone should be unjustly omitted and have to deal with a lifetime of emotional trauma because of it.

everything that the others have mentioned is very insightful. the only thing i can really add as to a lack of initiative is that kids need to feel motivated enough to have initiative. i would suspect that the ones who aren't motivated don't have anyone in their lives who have expectations of them.

i've always felt that this is a key issue for parents... if you have kids you have to expect something of them... give them the opportunity to live up to those expectations and grow from their experiences. i think a lot of parents are afraid that their kids will get hurt too much if they fail to meet these expectations (regardless of what field of life it's in) which is another consequence of these cookie cutter approaches to things. i think that a lot of self pride comes from an early age when mom & dad want you to get something done. i don't mean a "chore" per se but just some type of accomplishment. the success or failure is immaterial... it's a matter of taking the time and effort to give it a go that matters... and knowing that you took your shot at it and mom & dad being there to show their recognition for what you did.

anyway... my point is that if someone starts showing these kids that they can be respected for taking initiative, and that they gain something from being respected... that they move forward in society this way, then they'll soon start doing it. the method to accomplish this is different for every person but i think this is at the core of the issue.

 

[TBKahuna123]

I be surprised if you disagree with me on this, but the fact of the matter is, school is not *free*. Nearly all taxpayers in this country chip into to the public school system. The cost of instruction per child in public vs. private school is seriously unbalanced.

I don't, but the people who feel this way don't see it like we do. They only worry about where their taxes go when their pissed off about something. They don't write a check to the school, so they assume it's free.

And you are right, there is an imbalance between the costs of educating children. This also varies from state to state, and community to community. There is also the problem of getting good teachers into rural schools, balancing cost of educating children between urban and rural districts, the shuffling of borders to get more students, thus more funding, for larger districts at the expense of accessibility and proximity for rural children. I hear all these things everyday, and it makes my head spin. The biggest problem I see: Politicians control the funding, not educators.

 

[bisexplicit]

There's a lot of young people that come to the How To board and ask questions they could have researched themselves, and even when you provide links, they don't want to go to the trouble of reading them.

*sigh* And this is why I have a serious problem with some people my own age. They make the rest of us look incredibly stupid.


And I think that I can't really answer this question the way you would like - considering I just graduated from HS two years ago.

 

[Eilan]

And you are right, there is an imbalance between the costs of educating children. This also varies from state to state, and community to community. There is also the problem of getting good teachers into rural schools, balancing cost of educating children between urban and rural districts, the shuffling of borders to get more students, thus more funding, for larger districts at the expense of accessibility and proximity for rural children. I hear all these things everyday, and it makes my head spin. The biggest problem I see: Politicians control the funding, not educators.

Oh, geez. At least a year or two ago, and after a 15-year court battle, Ohio's school funding system was ruled unconstitutional and the legislature was told to fix it, but nothing's happened. It's based on property taxes, and so the larger suburban districts are naturally going to be able to provide more programs, spend more per student, etc. than school districts in the southern part of Ohio, where property values are generally lower and there aren't a lot of large businesses.

Where I live, kids who have the initiative to do well in school or dream of going to college are often viewed as sellouts by their family members, particularly if they're the first person in the family to do so. College is seen as a way of prolonging adolescence, thus delaying entry into the real world.

There's a lot of young people that come to the How To board and ask questions they could have researched themselves, and even when you provide links, they don't want to go to the trouble of reading them.

Not to hijack this thread too much, but, like you, I see a connection.

Back in my working mom days, I taught a variety of lower-level English and math courses, including Composition I and Composition II. Comp II requires a 10-12 page research paper; most of you know that's pretty short as far as research papers go. A lot of the nontraditional students don't have any experience with research papers, and I expect that. However, there are quite a few students who took college prep/AP English courses in high school who haven't done this as well. One of my students told me that she and her classes spent most of their time in their AP English classes painting. Painting? In English class?

Not only is the ability to conduct the most basic of research often nonexistent, but some of these students have no understanding of what constitutes plagiarism. My department's plagiarism policy is that if a student plagiarizes a paper, then he or she fails the ENTIRE term, NOT just the assignment. I talked about plagiarism on the first day of the term and when they started writing their papers. Despite all that, I ended up failing a student for submitting her BF's research paper (from another Comp course/instructor) under her own name. She argued that while, no, she didn't write the paper herself, it wasn't plagiarized because her boyfriend had cited everything properly.

What was this thread about, again?

 

[Guest]

 

[Eilan]

this is just sad.

They're supposed to get a job, get married, and have kids, though not necessarily in that order.

Young people are leaving Ohio, particularly the rural parts of the state, in droves because the ones who want to succeed don't believe that they'll succeed if they stay.

 

[TBKahuna123]

They're supposed to get a job, get married, and have kids, though not necessarily in that order.

Young people are leaving Ohio, particularly the rural parts of the state, in droves because the ones who want to succeed don't believe that they'll succeed if they stay.

Wow, deja vu! That is exactly what's happening here too. At least in SD there is a real effor tot help rural schools, but it still lags behind, being based on property taxes. Of course, since about 95% of SD IS rural...

 

[EJFan]

i don't know that this addresses initiative but i remembered another theory i had that sort of correlates with what i posted above.

when i was in college we used to sell cigarettes at the information desk in the student union. state legislation was changed and we stopped selling cigarettes there because, as the state saw it, we were promoting unhealthy choices.

i think this is bullshit. what they were really doing was promoting NO chioces. if you remove the opportunity for people to make decisions, they become poor decision makers... and let's face it, taking the cigarettes out of that particular location didn't stop anyone from smoking... i can guarantee that.

in any event... aside from having expectations of children, i think that giving them the opportunity to make decisions, and to make BAD decisions can go a long way to rearing a child with ambition and initiative.

 

[Eilan]

in any event... aside from having expectations of children, i think that giving them the opportunity to make decisions, and to make BAD decisions can go a long way to rearing a child with ambition and initiative.

A bad decision is still a decision.

I think that having children face the consequences of their actions (i.e. learning from their mistakes) should be a part of growing up. Now, I obviously don't think that parents should teach their kids to stay out of the road by letting them play in the road and get hit by a car, so obviously there has to be some common sense involved. But a lot of parents try to shield their kids from anything remotely negative, instead of taking the opportunity to use an experience to teach a lesson.

For example: Just this evening, my oldest daughter had a basketball game. My kindergartener wanted to go to the game, but as soon as we got home from school, she changed into her pajamas. I told her that was fine, but if she wanted to go to the game, she'd have to change back into her everyday clothes. 20 minutes before we were to leave, I gave my oldest her uniform and told her and her sister to get changed and ready to go. When it was time to leave, my kindergartener was still in her pajamas. She started crying because I wouldn't wait for her to get her clothes back on, but I'd given her more than enough advance warning. She chose to stay in her room and play instead of changing her clothes. It wouldn't have been fair to my oldest child if I'd waited for her sister to dress because she would have been late for her game.

As a result of my kindergartener's (non)action, she had to stay home. Maybe next time she wants to go somewhere, she'll remember what happened when she chose not to listen.

 

[jerseyman1963]

I'm not sure we're not making a mountain out of a molehill here. Think about the adults in your life in your neighborhood, in your workplace, in your family. Are all of them self-actuated, motivated geniuses? Some of them are, and some of them are successful, and that comes with the pressure of adulthood. You perform, or you're out in the cold. Survival in the jungle is a wonderful motivator. But some people are content to just get by, or are just plain lazy, and why should kids be any different?

Now, it would definitely be nice if we raised successive generations to be achievers as a group, and for that I blame society as a whole. We spend time focusing on the most arcane and inane "topics," and I use the word topics loosely, like, is Tom Cruise crazy, or who is wearing what to the Oscars? Who cares? When are we going to get to Mars? What are we going to do about clobal warming?

On the other hand, I've been somewhat successful in my life, and if you'd looked at me in high school, if you knew something about me, you might have predicted success, but if you just saw me in just certain classes, you never would have predicted that later in life I would figure out what charged me up and inspired me, and I'd go for it in a big way. I even had a professor in college tell me that in the faculty room they said I was a nice guy but I was never going to hit the ball out of the park, so to speak. Well, as it turns out, that was because I hadn't yet figured out that I was pursuing the wrong career. After some attempts and failures I did figure out what I wanted to do, and now every time I send a notice to the alumni newsletter, I think of it as an FU note to this professor, and I get a big grin. But could he have predicted this? No. He could have been a little nicer about it, but he could never have predicted this.

So I think anyone who looks at a kid as lazy may be missing the point, or not seeing the big picture. But on the other hand I do see a lot of kids entering the workforce expecting to go right to the top, to the big jobs and titles and the big bucks w/out paying their dues, w/out having to spend the time and effort to learn and practice their craft, and that is an overall problem.

Seesh. I have contradicted myself about 6 times already. I think we have an overall, problem, and yet I look at myself and I think that you just never know. Parents working 24/7 just to get by. Too much TV. Too much internet. Massive bloated educational beaurocracies. Little or no accountability. It's a very complicated problem situation.

 

[pleasteasme]

Wow!

There is a ton of things to digest and respond to ~ thank you all!

I hope to have more time this evening to come back and visit.

Thanks for your input and have a wonderful day

 

[Eilan]

I'm not sure we're not making a mountain out of a molehill here. Think about the adults in your life in your neighborhood, in your workplace, in your family. Are all of them self-actuated, motivated geniuses? Some of them are, and some of them are successful, and that comes with the pressure of adulthood. You perform, or you're out in the cold. Survival in the jungle is a wonderful motivator. But some people are content to just get by, or are just plain lazy, and why should kids be any different?

Maybe it's geographic? Where I live, a lot of children have been groomed for SSI since birth.

 

[silverwhisper]

pleasteasme quoth
however, a much larger percentage of my student population is sorely lacking when it comes to initiative or motivation.

how true was that of your peers when you were that age?

ed

 

[EJFan]

Maybe it's geographic? Where I live, a lot of children have been groomed for SSI since birth.

this is why stupid people shouldn't reproduce. not to say that SSI is a stupid person's lot in life but have you ever noticed that the people at the pit of society also seem to be the most fertile? wealthy and/or intellectual couples have to get fertility treatments to have a kid while the morons around us seem to pop out babies at the drop of a hat.

 

[TBKahuna123]

I'm not sure we're not making a mountain out of a molehill here. Think about the adults in your life in your neighborhood, in your workplace, in your family. Are all of them self-actuated, motivated geniuses? Some of them are, and some of them are successful, and that comes with the pressure of adulthood. You perform, or you're out in the cold. Survival in the jungle is a wonderful motivator. But some people are content to just get by, or are just plain lazy, and why should kids be any different?

Exactly, except I think your post proves the opposite. We're making a molehill out of a mountain!!!!

Eilan said it,, EJFan said it, and you said it too. Parents working 24/7 jsut to get by, others living of the government tit because they aren't ambitious enought o work 24/7 to get by, people who make too much money and don't make their kids do shit. Economic disparity is a huge part of this. I know a lot of people working three jobs tot support their families because they won't get government aid, they are too proud. I know a lot of families that litterally can't afford to go on welfare because if they'd have to quit their jobs and they'd make less than they need to survive, thus they are forced to continue workign 24/7. I also know a lot of people who's sole reason for having another child is to get a "pay raise" from SSI. All of these situations lead to laziness or burnout. Both of these circumstances can have a profound affect on our children.

It's too late for those lazy ass parents, but is it too late for the kids? No. These are the kids we should be targetting to try and strengthen our society. What about the kids whose parents are never there because they are working? Well, I sympathize with them, I really do, but that's not an excuse for unruly or unmotivated kids. Look at all these pro athletes. How many say "my mama worked 3 jobs to support me and my brothers and she taught me to always strive to do my best, to respect myself and to get to work hard?" This isn't just some bullshit sappy story, this is a roadmap to the values we shoudl be teaching our kids. Work Hard. Don't settle for good enough. Learn from your failures. Strive to excell. Respect yourself and others.

Parental responsibility, it's not just a buzz word, it's the #1 thing that we have to fix if our civilization is going to survive. Personally I think those parents who don't take responsibility for their kids are selfish. It's easier just to let them do what they please then to discipline and motivate their kids. Mama worked hard to put food on the table and teach him to do his best, but I'll bet she wasn't afraid to whoop a little ass too when the need arose.

 

[pleasteasme]

how true was that of your peers when you were that age?

ed

You know, I never thought of it that way. Really analyzing myself in high school, I didn't have much initiative and a lot of that came from a general disregard of me from my parents. *IMO*

With that said, growing up on a farm and having animals that I was in charge of, I had to take initiative. Of course, we are talking about something I WANTED to do. As we know, that makes a world of difference when compared to something you don't want to do or simply have no respect or interest in.

I think that the views here offer a nice range of thought and that is what I am looking for. Really, this topic is no different than any other. Some blame family, some blame the education system, etc. I don't think there is any one single answer but I do have my own theories as well.

I enjoy this conversation and reading all of your thoughts and view points. Thank you everyone for your contributions. Great topic & conversation!