Labels Anyone?

[catalina_francisco]

I must say many discussions on this board and others always end up in the 'I hate labels' assertion, and yet from what I see most who say this mean they hate specific labels, perhaps the stereotypical image they conjure up, not all labels. Why do I say that? From the length of time I have been on the forum (a couple of years now), there is not one person here who does not identify with some label as such, even if only to admit an interest in BDSM and a tendency to be either more in the vanilla, sub. slave, Dom/me, Mistress, Master, switch, PYL camp. That is a label which identifies a particular interest area and/or personal preference, but a label just the same.

'Labels' enable us to all communicate and have a vague idea of what we are discussing and referring to. Whether we wish to see it as negative or positive is in our own heads, not necessarily the head of the person asking a question, identifying in a particular way, or raising a discussion, though sometimes that may also be true...but if they ask a question or enter a discussion there is a glimmer of hope that even if they have set ideas, they are still open to hearing other views/ideas, especially if they are presented in a less confrontational, accusatory way. Once again on this forum I am asking that people remember that and not jump on someone for wanting to discuss areas which we all know are being discussed on every BDSM oriented board we may drop in on, and hopefully still will be in 5-10 years time....and remember even wishing to identify as a person without a label is a label in itself. None of us are immune, but most of us recognise the specific triggers which do it for us.

Isn't it just as judgemental and labelling to assert you are sub and don't feel comfortable with the idea of being a slave? Are Master and don't like Sir? You do or don't wear a collar and see no use for them or see a lot of symbolism in them? Isn't that making a judgement? Isn't that fitting into a set idea of what fits for you, what you believe to be right? Not necessarily wrong, though the way it is said can make it seem so, but the point is no-one here can honestly say they do not make judgements every day, nor that they do not use labels in their own life in some form or other every day. IMHO it is not a crime, just makes communication and growth so much easier.

I can think of nothing more chaotic than living in a world where labels did not exist. Are you an employee? No...employee is a label...oh, but then so is employer or non-worker. Do you follow a religion...No, I don't like to be identified with a label...oh, but then I fit another label as a non-believer. Do you have any trained skill? No, I don't like to limit myself to a label...mmmm, well kind of hard to seek employment. Are you more submissive, Dominant, or switch in your role? Oh, I don't like to be a label, I just want to find the right person for me. Hmmm, far easier if you can give a vague idea of who you are and what you want. Can't we admit labels can be good and bad, but are a part of life which no-one is exempt from using? How you might choose to use a label or preference does not make it magically not a label or judgement. Rant over.

Catalina http://www.smilies4you.de/content/boese/wut15.gif

 

[Gentle Baron]

Happily........

My My My.......What a nice thread here......Labels........

To Me , a label is also O/our status.......For one to be sub and One to be Master.........This status is also O/our committment in life , as far as this Lifestyle is concerned.......

Anyway , I would like to carry this disscussion some more......

 

[catalina_francisco]

Happily........

My My My.......What a nice thread here......Labels........

To Me , a label is also O/our status.......For one to be sub and One to be Master.........This status is also O/our committment in life , as far as this Lifestyle is concerned.......

Anyway , I would like to carry this disscussion some more......

Sure know it helped me find the one I needed much faster than if I had placed an ad simply saying I was looking (label in itself) without defining what gender I was, lifestyle role I craved to live, sexuality, my beliefs, etc. Just makes sense to me to define those things up front if I am wanting to communicate in a specific arena.

Catalina

 

[lovelylisa]

I think labels are fine as long as people understand that just because you're one thing you can't be another. And, if you choose not to use them, fine, but also understand that some people need to have a label to define themselves.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think labels are fine as long as people understand that just because you're one thing you can't be another. And, if you choose not to use them, fine, but also understand that some people need to have a label to define themselves.

I'm not sure it is so much a need to define in the sense they dont know who they are without it (and not sure that is what you meant either), but the fact everyone has a label whether they like to admit to it or not...and we all use them. Life is full of them and we use them every day to navigate our journey. To pretend otherwise is IMO doing just what others are accused of....putting themselves on a pedestal above others, or maybe just not thinking before jumping which I am also guilty of on more occasions than I care to be. Add to that the fact we all carry a collection of labels attached to who we are, not just one (eg. mother, grandmother, slave, submissive, woman, radical, feminist, artist, writer, counsellor, friend, moderator, innovator, life explorer, etc.) and it becomes even more impossible to pretend we don't. A lable does not make one better or worse, just real.

Catalina

 

[Mr Blonde]

As a funny aside, there is a certain poster -- who I think is a good contributor, by the way -- but this poster inevitably replies to each thread where "labels" is the topic. And each time it is eschew and castoff conventional labels....discussing how labels are unimportant to them! So unimportant they never miss a thread?

(By the way, we all have our quirks so I am not mocking this person. But you have to admit it is worth a chuckle.)

 

[catalina_francisco]

As a funny aside, there is a certain poster -- who I think is a good contributor, by the way -- but this poster inevitably replies to each thread where "labels" is the topic. And each time it is eschew and castoff conventional labels....discussing how labels are unimportant to them! So unimportant they never miss a thread?

(By the way, we all have our quirks so I am not mocking this person. But you have to admit it is worth a chuckle.)

My point exactly.....bit like the old saying 'Doest thou protest too much?' While people continue to protest their abhorrence and total exclusion from the use of labels and judgements, apart from the fact that statement has just belied the fact, they then tend to follow it with their own take on labels, who they are personally, where they fit or don't fit, and what they believe to be important, relevant, and real!!

Catalina

 

[Mr Blonde]

Yes, sometimes all the superficial talk of labels and perspectives blocks the discussion of more meaningful issues.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Yes, sometimes all the superficial talk of labels and perspectives blocks the discussion of more meaningful issues.

LOL, my kind of person....get to the point before it is lost completely!!

Catalina

 

[sunfox]

I wouldn't say I hate labels. Labels are useful, in their fashion.

I do have a dislike for one particular term, but it is due to my racial background and the inherent slur involved in the word itself, rather than any desire to mock those who chose to adopt it.

Some people use em, some don't. To each their own.

 

[Mr Blonde]

Some people use em, some don't. To each their own.

No, that was Catalina's whole point. Everyone uses labels. Wittingly or not.

 

[serijules]

I like this topic...I love to hate labels too, for that matter. In fact, I wrote a whole essay on the subject once.

What's in a Label?

A bit from the essay that pretty much covers my opinion on the subject...


"I've oft times thought that people into spanking and BDSM ought to come with labels. You know, like the nutrition labels found on packages at the store, breaking everything down to every gram, ounce and calorie, leaving little for the imagination. 50% submissive, 30% brat, 20% switch equals 100% pervert? *grin*.

Nearly all the disagreements and misunderstandings I see in this lifestyle, in person, on message boards or in chat stem from a difference of opinion when it comes to the basic labels we classify ourselves and our peers into, or a misuse of the labels to overly-generalize people in unfair or uncalled for ways. Personally, I despise labels. I feel they do nothing but generalize others in ways that we have no business generalizing them into. To say that subs are doormats, or brats are immature, is really no different than racism in its finest. Yet on the other hand, to be without these labels we would be hard pressed to communicate with others where our interests and personalities lie, so to some extent they are a necessity as a base to build communication. The key is understanding the various ways people define each label, and keeping an open mind about the ways in which the mold fits each person as an individual. To blatantly assume every person you meet that calls themselves a sub matches your own definition of the word will get you nowhere, fast.

No one label will likely fit one person to the T, and there is nothing wrong with being a mix of many different types and roles. Sometimes I think people get so stuck in a rut, afraid to branch out and try different things or explore different interests because of stereotypes that exist in connection with many of the labels we commonly use in the spanking and BDSM community. I have come across many of these stereotypes and misconceptions in the few years I've explored my kinky desires, and it always amazes me how the spectrum varies from person to person. My intentions with this essay are to portray some of the most common definitions of the usual labels found in the lifestyle and hopefully dispel some of the myths and stereotypes associated with them. Please do keep in mind that these are merely my own observations and opinions, and will vary as much as the next persons. It is up to you to form your own unique view regarding labels, and to use that view wisely. Every person and every relationship is extremely unique, and no one word or definition will ever fit perfectly. [...]

So, all that being said, what IS in a label?

The answer is simple. Whatever works for you.

The examples and characteristics are only a few of many many more, each as unique as the person defining them. There will always be exceptions to every case, those that use BDSM and spanking as escapes from issues in their lives in an unhealthy way, and there will always be those that hide behind the stereotypes associated with a label and use it as an excuse for inexcusable behavior. Those that truly embrace spanking and BDSM as a desired lifestyle rather than a game will likely not use a label to define who they are, but rather as an aid in helping communicate their desires and style with others. There is a certain amount of pride in having found and in sharing your chosen niche in the lifestyle, and this helps build a common ground with like-minded people, however loose it may be.

The best way to find that niche is through exploration and experience. You may have a general idea of what you want or desire, but are unsure of where those desires fit in the larger scope of things. You might find yourself to be a general mix of all the labels and roles available, and even some that no one else has thought of but you. The nature of roles and labels is that they constantly shift as you grow and experience more. A role that fit you at one stage may not work at another. There is no rule that says a brat will always be a brat, and it is advisable to always respect the shifts and changes that a person goes through in relation to roles. Part of earning respect from your peers is a willingness to respect the definitions they apply to the roles they have chosen, without generalizing them into your own opinions. There is room enough for everyone and their version of the variety of labels, that is what keeps the lifestyle fresh, interesting and ever-growing. The most successful way to avoid sinking into the rut of stereotypes and generalizations often associated with labels is to avoid dishing them out yourself.

The only one that can define what label fits a person...is that person themselves. Me? I'm a bi-sexual masochistic, submissive SAMMY brat that switches. *grin*

I hope no one minds me sharing my essays now and then on related topics, I'd rather not post them in the essay/how to section but it is nice to share them when I think someone may enjoy reading or benefit from it.

 

[ammre]

i just don't think of them as labels. They are descriptions.

I mean i don't hate the actual labels i just hate some of the connotations that go along with some labels or even the word "label". Like the typical Jock, punk, prep, etc... I play sports, i listen to brittney spears and other pop music, and i wear punk style clothing... it's mostly when people label you from only knowing only one aspect of your personality, that it drives me nuts.

the label difference between a submissive and slave(For example)... i haven't had that much experience but I'd choose to recognize with the idea of being a submissive... I have a will of my own, i just happen to LET him at the moment do what he wants with me... to be a slave more or less seems like you have no choice in the matter. As i said though, i've never experienced the "slave" life so i don't think i'm fit in my knowledge to even choose between the labels. Although another factor in this is explaining to your friends or people who need to understand your label... My friends would look at me funny and feel that Sir was a horrible person if i said i was a slave, but saying submissive sounds so much more acceptable.

 

[sunfox]

No, that was Catalina's whole point. Everyone uses labels. Wittingly or not.

No, actually, that wasn't Catalina's -whole- point. It was part of her point.

And I don't have to agree with her, regardless of the fact that I like her.

Proud to be Contrary,
sunfox.

 

[catalina_francisco]

No, actually, that wasn't Catalina's -whole- point. It was part of her point.

And I don't have to agree with her, regardless of the fact that I like her.

Proud to be Contrary,
sunfox.

Actually it was my whole point.....but yes. I like you too and respect your right to disagree. What I was trying to say is people can scream Í hate labels'as much as they like, protest they do not use them, but bottom line is they are necessary to commmunicate, and everyone does use them and have several attached to themeven if the main one they want to use is 'non-labeller'. It is not the label which is necessarily bad, but as serijules expressed so well, the connotations that go with that label in the mind of others.

As ammre says, she sees being slave as being someone with no choice in the matter, while a submissive has a will of their own but choooses to allow the Dominant to do as they want with them. It is about the belief attached to the label and the need to continue discussing instead of getting hung up on the label. My life as a slave is not a no choice life, nor one which means I have no will....in fact most I know think I have one of the strongest wills they have come across, but I did make a choice to surrender that will to my Dominant. Is about interpretations, not actual labels themselves.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

I have absolutely no issue with labels as a tool for communication. The problem is that when people get obsessive about them it's like...

well you are this so you do this.

Or you are this, so you can't be this.

Or no "real" this does this.

People need to respect other's self determination and self portrayal. Excessive labelling of others FOR others fails to do this.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

People need to respect other's self determination and self portrayal. Excessive labelling of others FOR others fails to do this.

Yeah, this was the point I would have made if I'd gotten here first.

The problem doesn't seem to be with what you label yourself, as with what you insist on labeling others, no matter what they think about it. It's like I finally got it that it's really not polite or kind to call someone older Sir, if they want to be called Fred. And, frankly, I'll call them Fred if that's what they prefer, even if the name on their driver's license is Samantha.

It's like any other label. Once we start getting into 'you're not a Real Democrat,' or ' all Democrats do thus and so,' we have problems.

Btw, as I'm guessing Mr Blonde isn't going to return to the thread I started that he commented on, and as it seems relevant to this discussion, here's part of my response to his post:

To make it easier for you, and some others, to deal with me, you might want to think of me as a Domme -- who absolutely Insists on being treated as a sub in bed.



Since Sunfox is already Captain of the Warrior Subs,
I nominate myself member in good standing of the Fighting Tigers, (Stubborn Smartass SubDivision)

 

[catalina_francisco]

I have absolutely no issue with labels as a tool for communication. The problem is that when people get obsessive about them it's like...

well you are this so you do this.

Or you are this, so you can't be this.

Or no "real" this does this.

People need to respect other's self determination and self portrayal. Excessive labelling of others FOR others fails to do this.

Very true..it is the problem people become locked into ideas of what a label must or should represent, without the allowance for individuality and varying perceptions, and fluidity expressed.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Btw, as I'm guessing Mr Blonde isn't going to return to the thread I started that he commented on, and as it seems relevant to this discussion, here's part of my response to his post:

To make it easier for you, and some others, to deal with me, you might want to think of me as a Domme -- who absolutely Insists on being treated as a sub in bed.

That was you he was referring to?!! LOL, I thought of someone else totally. It is interesting when we recognise the various facets of our personality, even more so when we are forced to divide them for specific occasions and focus totally on one.....it is a challenge I thought I was losing last week, but may just have discovered what Master has been trying to create, and accepted it.

Catalina

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

Interesting thread

For me, there are some labels I will happily apply to myself (mother, worker, masochistic switch) and others that I hate to use simply because of the way most people re-act when they hear those words (Pagan, bi-sexual, poly-amorous).

I believe that labeling is as much help as hindrance. After all, one chooses their companions by what their companions say and labeling is a big part of that.

My problem has always been being expected to fit the preconceived ideal of my own labels. I am bi-sexual, so I must have trouble making up my mind. I must be a whore, which is why I am poly-amorous. I worship the devil because I am pagan. Hell, I must be the nurturing, giving type because I am a mother. (I am sure you all get the idea.)

It's not the labels or even the NEED for labels that bothers me...it is the expectations and preconceived ideal behind the labels that bothers me.

Later
pet

 

[Phoenix Stone]

That was you he was referring to?!! LOL, I thought of someone else totally.

No, I don't think so. I was just responding to his post.

It is interesting when we recognise the various facets of our personality, even more so when we are forced to divide them for specific occasions and focus totally on one.....it is a challenge I thought I was losing last week, but may just have discovered what Master has been trying to create, and accepted it.
Catalina

don't understand this. explain please? unless it is too personal.

 

[SwtSouthrnSub]

.

 

[catalina_francisco]

don't understand this. explain please? unless it is too personal.

LOL, let's just say he has given me a couple of challenges to meet I never even thought would enter his head, or mine for that matter....or that I thought would even be a part of our journey, even in my wildest imagination. Is definately digging deep to find parts of me I either didn't want to recognise, didn't know existed, or thought were never going to be used in this way. At least he is not boring....ROFLMAO, or predictable as he was beginning to think I thought he was.

Catalina

 

[Limbhugger]

For me it is all about the motivation behind or method of the use of labels. All too often labels are used with a sense of completness. A totality that suggests that by wearing any said label then one obviously meets a certain set of known conditions and restrictions. And that all others who share the same label will meet the same criterea.

That's when labels become pointless, misleading, and often counter productive.

An experienced or open minded person is capable of realizing that just because one wears a particular label does not necessarily mean that person fits into any box. They will take the label as a broad or general description from which to begin to base an understanding of the person.

But an inexperienced or inflexable person can find labels confusing or even even a virtual roadblock of ignorance.

How often do we get questions such as..."I think I'm submissive but I don't like pain does that mean I'm weird?" "I don't want to drink out of a dog bowl but I love him to spank me really hard what does that make me?" or the classic "I'm so confused about how I feel can someone please tell me what makes a person a sub?"

On the flip side how often do we encounter psuedo-dominants that handily dismiss a sassy strong-willed character as not a true sub. And how often do we encounter those who state, "Any sub that will not *insert any myriad of the BS we've all seen here* is not worthy of...blah, blah, blah..."

These are times when labels only serve an attempt at restriction through personalized perception. Be it borne of ignorance or intentional projection the result is the same: labels indicate very specific limits and requirements.

And don't even get me started on how so many out there treat the "switch" label.

When labels are used as a generic foundation for comrehensive adults to begin to build an understanding, then fine. If I say I am a submissive that should only slightly turn your head in the direction my path takes. It tells little to nothing about the footsteps I've taken or the twists and turns my path takes. So the term (label) is only presented as a way of initiating an understanding of my motivations.

We all are quick to preach that D/s is far from one size fits all and I believe that is the absolute truth. In that spirit, labels must be used carefully and sparingly and with open-ended implications.

Just my 2 bucks.

 

[ammre]

Just my 2 bucks.

I like your 2 bucks...
i've liked a lot of your 2 bucks...
*HIGH FIVE*