Kids and recess

[sophia jane]

My oldest has had a helluva time the last few years, with the whole hurricane and moving to two new schools in two years. This move has been hardest and it's definitely taking its toll of my oldest's confidence and self-esteem. Most of the problem seems to be recess. The schools here believe in lots of recess and there's only so much supervision during recess, of course, so things happen. Things like overly rough football, pushing, name calling, hitting, and general bullying. So what I want to know is- how much is too much? What's normal and what's not? He's only 9 and in fourth grade, which seems so young to me to be learning that life can be so hard, but I know kids can be mean and cruel and that boys do get rough sometimes.
So, what's appropriate recess play? At what point does it cross a line? And how do I help him through this? Because he's miserable and dreads school because he feels like the kids hate him.
Any help, advice, etc is very much appreciated.

 

[ElizabethWest]

My oldest has had a helluva time the last few years, with the whole hurricane and moving to two new schools in two years. This move has been hardest and it's definitely taking its toll of my oldest's confidence and self-esteem. Most of the problem seems to be recess. The schools here believe in lots of recess and there's only so much supervision during recess, of course, so things happen. Things like overly rough football, pushing, name calling, hitting, and general bullying. So what I want to know is- how much is too much? What's normal and what's not? He's only 9 and in fourth grade, which seems so young to me to be learning that life can be so hard, but I know kids can be mean and cruel and that boys do get rough sometimes.
So, what's appropriate recess play? At what point does it cross a line? And how do I help him through this? Because he's miserable and dreads school because he feels like the kids hate him.
Any help, advice, etc is very much appreciated.

Bless his little heart. Kids are so cruel. I have no kids or ideas, but I feel for you both.

 

[matriarch]

My oldest has had a helluva time the last few years, with the whole hurricane and moving to two new schools in two years. This move has been hardest and it's definitely taking its toll of my oldest's confidence and self-esteem. Most of the problem seems to be recess. The schools here believe in lots of recess and there's only so much supervision during recess, of course, so things happen. Things like overly rough football, pushing, name calling, hitting, and general bullying. So what I want to know is- how much is too much? What's normal and what's not? He's only 9 and in fourth grade, which seems so young to me to be learning that life can be so hard, but I know kids can be mean and cruel and that boys do get rough sometimes.
So, what's appropriate recess play? At what point does it cross a line? And how do I help him through this? Because he's miserable and dreads school because he feels like the kids hate him.
Any help, advice, etc is very much appreciated.

My suggestion would be to talk to the school. They are in the best position to know what's happening......and if they don't then your chance to tell them of your worries.

 

[rgraham666]

Any is too much.

I'm speaking as someone who moved once a year at least until he was nine.

And then became a favourite pastime for the kids at my final home. "I'm bored." "Let's go beat up Rob. That'll be fun."

On top of that I learned that people in authourity didn't care. If I got beat up, they were cool with that, they had more important things to worry about. Like what to do with me since I was too stupid to learn.

OK, I'll stop ranting now.

 

[S-Des]

Kiten is dealing with the same thing. Where she lives, the schools are very tough on bullying, but it still happens. Her boy has a crush on a girl, who is one of the bullies, so despite her being mean, he seeks her out. It's not fair, but there's nothing you can do besides teaching him to be tough. If the kids see that they get to him (if he cries, tells on them, etc...) it will make him a target. If he shows them that they don't bother him, they'll usually move on to someone they see as an easier target. Martial arts is a great way to deal with it because he learns to protect himself and it teaches discipline. If that's not a possibility, there are other activities he could do to build up his self-esteem. Self-confidence is the key to most things in life, so you have to find a way to instill that in him.

I didn't find mine until later in life (when I became a musician), so I'm not much help in what to do in the younger years.

 

[mjl2010]

I hated grade school. There was plenty of what you describe going on in fourth grade. Does he have any friends there at all? Have you seen it happening? Are the kids picking on him older than he is? If they are, insist something be done about them.

Back when I was in grade school, you were pretty much expected to stand up for yourself. Things are different now. You get kicked out of school for fighting these days. That's how things got settled back then though. It was quite a boost to my ego the first time in sixth grade that I got the guts to swing back at an eigth grader who'd been picking on me. Put him on his back and after that, no one bothered me and I made some friends in that school.

I'm not suggesting you tell him to start swinging. But I'd find out exactly who is doing the bullying and if it's bad, do something about it.

MJL

 

[sophia jane]

My suggestion would be to talk to the school. They are in the best position to know what's happening......and if they don't then your chance to tell them of your worries.

The first time it happened, we talked to the principal and things sorta improved. It was a wider spread issue then, with the football games getting too aggressive for all the kids. This time it's smaller scale. Monday, his glasses were knocked off and a lens came out and another kid got her pants ripped (both by the same boy). They all ended up talking to the counselor. Today, he came home and said two kids had been pushing him and one told him he was "stupid" if he told on them. So he didn't. I called the principal after school and he'll be talking to my son on Monday to get more details. I know he'll investigate and I know he'll take action if needed. I guess I just feel really helpless and have no clue what I should do. Or what's normal and what's me just being a goofy mom.

Kiten is dealing with the same thing. Where she lives, the schools are very tough on bullying, but it still happens. Her boy has a crush on a girl, who is one of the bullies, so despite her being mean, he seeks her out. It's not fair, but there's nothing you can do besides teaching him to be tough. If the kids see that they get to him (if he cries, tells on them, etc...) it will make him a target. If he shows them that they don't bother him, they'll usually move on to someone they see as an easier target. Martial arts is a great way to deal with it because he learns to protect himself and it teaches discipline. If that's not a possibility, there are other activities he could do to build up his self-esteem. Self-confidence is the key to most things in life, so you have to find a way to instill that in him.

I didn't find mine until later in life (when I became a musician), so I'm not much help in what to do in the younger years.

He actually took martial arts for a few years, but he didn't enjoy it much so he quit. As for defending himself, I agree that he should know how, but I worry about him getting in trouble for fighting. I've tried to teach him just to walk away, but it's not that easy in elementary school. The teachers seem to be oblivious to all of this and everytime it happens, he gets a little more down on himself. It's that part of it that really bothers me.

And Rob- *hugs*

 

[Goldie Munro]

I guess I just feel really helpless and have no clue what I should do. Or what's normal and what's me just being a goofy mom.

Keep being a goofy mom! You are doing what you can by speaking to the school and supporting your son - tell him to buddy up with friends and try to not be alone and I know its a cliche or hard to do but tell him to ignore or laugh at the people bullying him and keep speaking to the school!

 

[TheeGoatPig]

When I was in school I was the picked on child. The only thing a parrent can really do is support their child and believe that what is happening to them is real (my mother didn't really believe that I was being picked on by EVERYONE in school, that was the most traumatising part of it all).

Try to teach them to stand up for them selves a little better. Not to fight back, that isn't always needed. Just to stand their ground when appropriate (which is tough for a child to understand), and not let it happen like a doormat.

 

[S-Des]

When I was in school I was the picked on child. The only thing a parrent can really do is support their child and believe that what is happening to them is real (my mother didn't really believe that I was being picked on by EVERYONE in school, that was the most traumatising part of it all).

Try to teach them to stand up for them selves a little better. Not to fight back, that isn't always needed. Just to stand their ground when appropriate (which is tough for a child to understand), and not let it happen like a doormat.

Exactly. That's the whole point of martial arts...if you're not afraid, you don't project fear and often can avoid a fight (without resorting to running, which is a guarantee of abuse in the future). Unfortunately, half the martial arts instructors don't really understand that and can be as bad as some of the bullies. Be a goofy mom, especially when it gets physical. Also be aware that it happens and learning to deal with it will be very important to his future social skills. You can't protect him from everything, so need to pick your battles. From your description, I'd say this was one to jump on.

 

[SensualCealy]

My suggestion is the same as the rest, go to the school every day until the matter is looked at. I know you dont have time for this, but, if you did, a good solution is for you to sit in your car far enough from the school and watch. Watch what goes on in the school yard.
If you see kids punching, or shoving, document it. If you see your child being beat up, document it. When you have a couple recesses worth of documentation you go to the principal and say, "Who at this school is responsible for supervision on the play yard?" When he says he is, tell him what you saw and tell him until things change you want your child to either have indoor recess or if he walks to school, he can come home.
THis will cause more problems specially if its an indoor recess. Who will supervise him then?
We have a 'hands off' policy at our school, and we have balanced nutrician breaks, so half of the kids are inside, and half our outside to reduce the numbers all in one place at one time. Our school is only 460 kids, but on a tiny school yard it works for us.

DO NOT by any means let this go, stay on his ass until the principal actually does something.
If you need info on any policies, I likely have some you can take to him to look at and possibly implement.
C

 

[sophia jane]

Exactly. That's the whole point of martial arts...if you're not afraid, you don't project fear and often can avoid a fight (without resorting to running, which is a guarantee of abuse in the future). Unfortunately, half the martial arts instructors don't really understand that and can be as bad as some of the bullies. Be a goofy mom, especially when it gets physical. Also be aware that it happens and learning to deal with it will be very important to his future social skills. You can't protect him from everything, so need to pick your battles. From your description, I'd say this was one to jump on.

He's not afraid of them for sure, and I know from what he's told me that he has, at times, fought back. As far as I know he doesn't cry either, though I suspect there are times when he goes the "I'm gonna tell" route. I've been trying to encourage him to avoid the situation altogether, but unfortunately the problem kids are friendly with one of the boys my son really likes, so avoiding them would mean being alone at recess.
What bothers me most, I guess, is what it's been doing to his self-esteem. These kids have gotten him to the point that he feels like no one likes him and he's been so down on himself, and that's really hard to watch.
I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and encouragement. I don't feel so silly for going to the principal now, and that helps alot.

 

[TheeGoatPig]

Exactly. That's the whole point of martial arts...if you're not afraid, you don't project fear and often can avoid a fight (without resorting to running, which is a guarantee of abuse in the future). Unfortunately, half the martial arts instructors don't really understand that and can be as bad as some of the bullies. Be a goofy mom, especially when it gets physical. Also be aware that it happens and learning to deal with it will be very important to his future social skills. You can't protect him from everything, so need to pick your battles. From your description, I'd say this was one to jump on.

I didn't read the second half of your post the first time...

 

[TheeGoatPig]

What bothers me most, I guess, is what it's been doing to his self-esteem. These kids have gotten him to the point that he feels like no one likes him and he's been so down on himself, and that's really hard to watch.
I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and encouragement. I don't feel so silly for going to the principal now, and that helps alot.

That is a tough one, and that is where he needs your support. That part probably won't get better until middle or high school. There's not much he can do except go with what's given to him in life, and wait patiently for things to get better (like graduating).

I know that's no what most parrents want to hear, but sometimes that's the truth. Sometimes it doesn't get better until the problem is gone completely. You just have to make sure that he makes it passed the hard times to see that it does get better.

Graduating was the best thing that ever happened to me.

 

[sophia jane]

My suggestion is the same as the rest, go to the school every day until the matter is looked at. I know you dont have time for this, but, if you did, a good solution is for you to sit in your car far enough from the school and watch. Watch what goes on in the school yard.
If you see kids punching, or shoving, document it. If you see your child being beat up, document it. When you have a couple recesses worth of documentation you go to the principal and say, "Who at this school is responsible for supervision on the play yard?" When he says he is, tell him what you saw and tell him until things change you want your child to either have indoor recess or if he walks to school, he can come home.
THis will cause more problems specially if its an indoor recess. Who will supervise him then?
We have a 'hands off' policy at our school, and we have balanced nutrician breaks, so half of the kids are inside, and half our outside to reduce the numbers all in one place at one time. Our school is only 460 kids, but on a tiny school yard it works for us.

DO NOT by any means let this go, stay on his ass until the principal actually does something.
If you need info on any policies, I likely have some you can take to him to look at and possibly implement.
C

The good thing about our principal is that he's really great at intervention and dealing with problems (so far anyway!). I called and left him a message today after school, and he called me twenty minutes later. He's going to meet with my son on Monday to hear his side of things first hand and get names and details, etc. From the situation last time, I expect he'll pull in some other kids and find out what their side is, and then he'll call me with an update sometime on Monday. At that point, I get to decide if enough is being done.
Sitting in my car to watch recess might actually work if it comes to that. Our playground is visible from three sides, so I could do it if necessary. I hope it's not, though. From the school's pov, though, I wonder how much they can do to stop this kind of behavior in the kids?

Being a mom is so hard!

 

[rgraham666]

Being a mom is so hard!

*HUGS* SJ. You're doing a fine job.

 

[kiten69]

What bothers me most, I guess, is what it's been doing to his self-esteem. These kids have gotten him to the point that he feels like no one likes him and he's been so down on himself, and that's really hard to watch. I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and encouragement. I don't feel so silly for going to the principal now, and that helps alot.

Don't feel silly. As Des has already said I'm going through similar issues with my sons' school, he's the same age as yours. I have been to the teacher (on a number of occassions), the principal...and the school counselor. The last meeting I had I got the opportunity to see the little girl behind all of this teasing and bullying...she is absolutely adorable and she knows it. I am attempting to instill the "don't be a doormat for anybody" moral into my son...but it really is a hard concept to get. For my son it is especially hard because he knows that being mean to other kids is NOT accepted at school and he is afraid of getting in "trouble" more than he is afraid of these bullies. And it is extremely hard to watch their self esteem spiral downhill...I've noticed a big change in him since this bullying began a few months ago. It really does cause damage to the bullied child and I have yet to figure out how to undo it .

The best advice I can give you is to stay involved...listen to your son and don't be afraid to voice your concerns to the school...they don't like a constant thorn in their side .

Best of luck to you...PM is always open if you need it

 

[SensualCealy]

IMO, having the principal call in kids that have been picking on your son is one of the worse things he could do. They will in turn come down harder on him after they have been in with the principal. My daughter got allot of flack from boys in my sons class, which are two years older. It stopped the day my daughter grabbed the boy, laid him out on his ass and held him in a submission (sp) hold she had learned in Judo. When the principal called her into the office, she said "No one was doing anything about them teasing me, the teachers just tell me to ignore them. If I have to show them I am stronger than they are to get them to respect me, then thats what I will do." I know it off by heart, they had to put it in the 'offence' record and parents get a copy of it. I was so proud of her that day. She didnt use violence she used self defence. NO one messes with her now.
I would have your son give him the names and on a different day discuss it with the other boys about picking on 'kids' in the school yard. I hope he is smart enough not to use your sons name in the discussion.
C
ps, she was only in grade 4 at the time.

 

[sophia jane]

IMO, having the principal call in kids that have been picking on your son is one of the worse things he could do. They will in turn come down harder on him after they have been in with the principal. My daughter got allot of flack from boys in my sons class, which are two years older. It stopped the day my daughter grabbed the boy, laid him out on his ass and held him in a submission (sp) hold she had learned in Judo. When the principal called her into the office, she said "No one was doing anything about them teasing me, the teachers just tell me to ignore them. If I have to show them I am stronger than they are to get them to respect me, then thats what I will do." I know it off by heart, they had to put it in the 'offence' record and parents get a copy of it. I was so proud of her that day. She didnt use violence she used self defence. NO one messes with her now.
I would have your son give him the names and on a different day discuss it with the other boys about picking on 'kids' in the school yard. I hope he is smart enough not to use your sons name in the discussion.
C
ps, she was only in grade 4 at the time.

Good for your daughter.
I'm worried about that too- the kids being worse for him telling on them. In fact, that's why he hadn't said anything at school lately. But when I told him that he'd be meeting with the principal on Monday he felt good about it; i guess knowing that i take him seriously helps. And I know our principal feels very strongly that kids should always feel safe at school, so hopefully he'll take the right steps. If not, I guess we'll just go the martial arts route. I'd already planned to get him into some after school activities to make new friends and hopefully learn some skills.
It doesn't help that he's the most emotional and most sensitive and most dramatic of all my kids to begin with. Hopefully, we'll get thru this. Y'all have really made me feel better about the situation and given me some good ideas. I'm glad I'm not alone.

 

[kiten69]

I would have your son give him the names and on a different day discuss it with the other boys about picking on 'kids' in the school yard. I hope he is smart enough not to use your sons name in the discussion.

C

The administrators at my sons' school never use the childrens names who are involved. They avoid singling the kids out because, you are right, it does tend to make the situation worse. The principal speaks to all the kids...kind of like a surprise "meeting" of sorts where he just pops in and says "lets all talk about bullying today"...the kids seems very into that idea. The counselor talks with my son twice a week and reports back to the teacher and the teacher watches the involved "group" a little more closely. I'm looking now at putting him into a martial arts class after school...I've heard so many good things about it...I'd love to see his self esteem come back up.

 

[sophia jane]

The administrators at my sons' school never use the childrens names who are involved. They avoid singling the kids out because, you are right, it does tend to make the situation worse. The principal speaks to all the kids...kind of like a surprise "meeting" of sorts where he just pops in and says "lets all talk about bullying today"...the kids seems very into that idea. The counselor talks with my son twice a week and reports back to the teacher and the teacher watches the involved "group" a little more closely. I'm looking now at putting him into a martial arts class after school...I've heard so many good things about it...I'd love to see his self esteem come back up.

I hope I can get my son's teacher on board. She seems remarkably oblivious to the whole thing, which amazes me considering it's about a third of the class involved, in one way or another. You'll have to keep me updated on your situation and if you find anything that helps either at school or with your son. I can use all the help I can get at this point, I think.

 

[joeys-game]

My oldest has had a helluva time the last few years, with the whole hurricane and moving to two new schools in two years. This move has been hardest and it's definitely taking its toll of my oldest's confidence and self-esteem. Most of the problem seems to be recess. The schools here believe in lots of recess and there's only so much supervision during recess, of course, so things happen. Things like overly rough football, pushing, name calling, hitting, and general bullying. So what I want to know is- how much is too much? What's normal and what's not? He's only 9 and in fourth grade, which seems so young to me to be learning that life can be so hard, but I know kids can be mean and cruel and that boys do get rough sometimes.
So, what's appropriate recess play? At what point does it cross a line? And how do I help him through this? Because he's miserable and dreads school because he feels like the kids hate him.
Any help, advice, etc is very much appreciated.

I have only read your initial post SJ, but if your son is miserable and fearful, the line has already been crossed..Thats my feeling. I have two boys, one 6, one 11, kids at that age all go through a certain amount of rough play and some teasing is normal but not to the point of the child feeling afraid and hating school.
Ta;k to the school counsellor or a child psychologist that consults for the school.
Maybe there is some help avaliable to your son.
Don't wait on this one, i didn't when my eldest experienced a similar situation.

 

[sophia jane]

Just wanted to update everyone who'd taken the time to post. I had a great talk with the principal today; he had a chat with my son about the situation and also took time to give him some ideas for making friends here and offered me a few ideas as well. He's also planning a chat with the boy who was bullying, and he seemed very supportive of our situation (not at all reluctant to believe my son or cynical or anything which was nice). He told me flat out, in fact, that if he gets confirmation of what my son said that the boy will be suspended and a meeting will be set up with his parents. So...we'll see what happens. Worried a little about the fall out, but at least I know the principal is taking it seriously.
Can't wait to talk to my son to hear how he feels about all of it.

 

[rgraham666]

I'm so happy to her your good news, sj. *HUGS*

 

[Elsie Grey]

I'm pleased to hear that the priniciapl is taking it seroiusly!

As for you sons self-esteem, are there any out of school activities that he might like to learn? A sport or hobby or something. That could help build his confidence up and gives him something other than the bullies to think about. Plus he might make friends there and then if any go to his school he can hang out with them at school as well.

One of our little lads at rowing was bullied at school, but he's got so much more confidence since he started to compete and when some other boys from his school (the 'popular' group) came down to try rowing and saw him in the good boats and doing so much better than them they really respected him for it and he's much more accepted now.

Elsie

xxx