Kicking myself

[NatalieDePlume]

A few days ago I submitted a story for publication. I stopped back in today to see if it's been approved yet, only to discover I never submitted for publication. I had accidentally hit save draft instead. Argh!

I know Literotica is probably the best site out here for this, but I guess I don't understand why there even has to be moderation approvable before publishing anyway. They're dealing with words here, not images or videos. You can go on Youtube and publish a video immediately. Even an erotic story reading. But every one of these erotica sites seem to do it. Like they are all stuck in 1998 web 1.0. You'd think it would be easier to just delete the stuff other users flag problematic than have to scan through every story for approval first. Again, I know Literotica is the best I've encountered, but it's still kind of annoying to have to wait a few days.

 

[Booboobear84]

Well there is the under 18 thing they try to avoid. I think it's risk minimization strategy. Also it prevents a kind of denial of service attack where they were flooded by someone with ill intent to the site with inappropriate content, and then same person arranges for the authorities to find it. Nonetheless, the delay is frustrating.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I know Literotica is probably the best site out here for this, but I guess I don't understand why there even has to be moderation approvable before publishing anyway. They're dealing with words here, not images or videos. You can go on Youtube and publish a video immediately. Even an erotic story reading. But every one of these erotica sites seem to do it. Like they are all stuck in 1998 web 1.0. You'd think it would be easier to just delete the stuff other users flag problematic than have to scan through every story for approval first. Again, I know Literotica is the best I've encountered, but it's still kind of annoying to have to wait a few days.

Imagine what a free for all it would be if there were no content policies. The good thing about Lit is that it does have the content rules it has, and the moderation process it has, to avoid paedophile content, snuff content, rapist content, etc. etc.

If that content doesn't get through in the first place, it doesn't need to be policed retrospectively.

 

[Thanatos_X13]

Considering that there are people out there who write hardcore gore/snuff stories that feature minors having all sorts of horrendous acts performed on them, the site has to have a filtering system. Letting anything get published and then hoping users report the shit that violates the rules would be monumentally stupid. And likely get the site shutdown. Literotica is run by two people. YouTube is run by one of the single biggest, most influential, ubiquitous tech companies on the planet. You're basically comparing an elderly couple running a garage sale to Amazon.

EDIT: ElectricBlue typed their comment faster than me, but I fully concur with them.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I know Literotica is probably the best site out here for this, but I guess I don't understand why there even has to be moderation approvable before publishing anyway. They're dealing with words here, not images or videos. You can go on Youtube and publish a video immediately. Even an erotic story reading. But every one of these erotica sites seem to do it. Like they are all stuck in 1998 web 1.0. You'd think it would be easier to just delete the stuff other users flag problematic than have to scan through every story for approval first. Again, I know Literotica is the best I've encountered, but it's still kind of annoying to have to wait a few days.

And stuff on youtube that violates rules does get taken down eventually. So which rule do you wish to violate and post on literotica for a few day/weeks/months until it gets flagged and taken down?

 

[NotWise]

I'm all for the site having and enforcing their content policies. It's important to the quality of the site, and if it's inconvenient for you, then you can publish somewhere else.

 

[ElectricBlue]

So which rule do you wish to violate and post on literotica for a few day/weeks/months until it gets flagged and taken down?

I get the frustration behind the moderation delays, but this thread has gone one step further, quizzing the need for moderation at all. That's a first, I reckon. I'm going to err on the side of naivety though, because really, the OP is beating up on herself for pressing the wrong button.

 

[KeithD]

By law, an Internet Website is as liable for what is published on their Website as the originator of the material is. This doesn't affect just erotica story content here. It's for anything the Website hosts. Of course a Website with any inkling of what that could mean for them legally, will prescan what goes on their Website.

 

[NatalieDePlume]

I think you all misunderstand me. I'm not saying there shouldn't be rules or standards, I'm saying that the method by which everything must be screened first seems outdated. You are all acting as if it's illegal to have any of those kinds of stories you're mentioning online. It's not. Morally wrong or at least questionable, yes. Against site policy, yes. But having something like that up temporary until it's deleted seems like a way better method than everyone having to wait multiple days for their stories to be published and having those two people have to scan through every story by hand first. That's all I'm saying.

 

[NatalieDePlume]

And stuff on youtube that violates rules does get taken down eventually. So which rule do you wish to violate and post on literotica for a few day/weeks/months until it gets flagged and taken down?

Wow! Don't pull that crap on me. I'm not here to violate any rule. I'm just not interested in waiting multiple days for stories to be published. Just seems like there is a better way.

 

[XerXesXu]

By law, an Internet Website is as liable for what is published on their Website as the originator of the material is. This doesn't affect just erotica story content here. It's for anything the Website hosts. Of course a Website with any inkling of what that could mean for them legally, will prescan what goes on their Website.

This is another much discussed topic. Anyone interested in Lit's legal immunities can search for S230 DCMA, Safe Harbor Immunity and Good Samaritan Immunity.

I don't agree with all Lit's rules, in some respects I'd prefer it was a little less permissive, but I'm sure I'm more comfortable being here than on any of the more permissive sites I see talked about.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I think you all misunderstand me. I'm not saying there shouldn't be rules or standards, I'm saying that the method by which everything must be screened first seems outdated. You are all acting as if it's illegal to have any of those kinds of stories you're mentioning online. It's not. Morally wrong or at least questionable, yes. Against site policy, yes. But having something like that up temporary until it's deleted seems like a way better method than everyone having to wait multiple days for their stories to be published and having those two people have to scan through every story by hand first. That's all I'm saying.

I think you've missed the point that allowing content that might attract unwanted "moral attention" from those that could make an erotica site a target, is inviting that unwanted attention. By not allowing it in the first place, that risk is minimised. I for one like the fact that the site moderates the way it does - it means we avoid living in a sewer. That's worth the minor inconvenience.

 

[NatalieDePlume]

I think you've missed the point that allowing content that might attract unwanted "moral attention" from those that could make an erotica site a target, is inviting that unwanted attention. By not allowing it in the first place, that risk is minimised. I for one like the fact that the site moderates the way it does - it means we avoid living in a sewer. That's worth the minor inconvenience.

Fair enough.
I guess to me, it's all fiction anyway. So I really don't understand the outrage. I'm not into gore for example. At all. Yet stuff like Walking Dead is on TV with people's guts and brains hanging out and no one seems to throw a fit about that. And that's visual and on cable television. Not just words on a screen like this website.
There are a lot of kinks people are into that I'm not. If I run across them I just stop reading. So I guess I just don't get all the outrage and paranoia. It's like if it shows up, just flag it and let the mods delete it. Why is everyone getting their panties in a twist over words on a screen?
I'll be honest, this website has perplexed the hell out of me with some of the reactions I've gotten to different things. Sometimes it's great and sometimes I feel like I stepped into a conservative Christian convention and not an erotica website.

 

[TheLobster]

Like they are all stuck in 1998 web 1.0

I mean, have you seen the site's front page? 1998 is almost making it generous.

I think you've missed the point that allowing content that might attract unwanted "moral attention" from those that could make an erotica site a target, is inviting that unwanted attention.

That's really the crux of it. It's not about legal protection; indeed, as @KeithD said, websites hosting user-generated content ("platforms") are protected by the infamous Section 230 from any liability arising from that content violating the law, just as long as it is removed promptly upon reporting. The other caveat to this the limited role such websites must assume -- hosting only, rather than publishing, i.e. applying other filters to the content they allow rather than just mere legality.

Ironically, by maintaining a moderation queue and having somewhat opaque content policies, the site opens itself to be construed as not a subject of Section's 230 definition of "platform," thus falling under the "publisher" umbrella instead. And publishers may be held liable for the user content they let through, as the level of editorial scrutiny they exercise is tantamount to taking on responsibility for said content.

(As usual, though, IANAL so the above is just a speculation).

This saying, I do question whether the fear of moral guardians converging on Lit, that @ElectricBlue is alluding to, is really all that justified. To use a trite argument, it's 2024 -- there are few things that people are shocked about anymore, and a website hosting amateur porn is hardly one that'd attract pitchforks. Porn in literary form, no less. No actual titties here, other than in the Illustrated section.

So, what I think is the most justified reason for moderation queue is the simple avoidance of rank spam and similar abuse (e.g. hosting pirated content and generating worthless traffic to it).

 

[NatalieDePlume]

I mean, have you seen the site's front page? 1998 is almost making it generous.


That's really the crux of it. It's not about legal protection; indeed, as @KeithD said, websites hosting user-generated content ("platforms") are protected by the infamous Section 230 from any liability arising from that content violating the law, just as long as it is removed promptly upon reporting. The other caveat to this the limited role such websites must assume -- hosting only, rather than publishing, i.e. applying other filters to the content they allow rather than just mere legality.

Ironically, by maintaining a moderation queue and having somewhat opaque content policies, the site opens itself to be construed as not a subject of Section's 230 definition of "platform," thus falling under the "publisher" umbrella instead. And publishers may be held liable for the user content they let through, as the level of editorial scrutiny they exercise is tantamount to taking on responsibility for said content.

(As usual, though, IANAL so the above is just a speculation).

This saying, I do question whether the fear of moral guardians converging on Lit, that @ElectricBlue is alluding to, is really all that justified. To use a trite argument, it's 2024 -- there are few things that people are shocked about anymore, and a website hosting amateur porn is hardly one that'd attract pitchforks. Porn in literary form, no less. No actual titties here, other than in the Illustrated section.

So, what I think is the most justified reason for moderation queue is the simple avoidance of rank spam and similar abuse (e.g. hosting pirated content and generating worthless traffic to it).

What's even more interesting is that this same website has a forum (this one) where any member can immediately post anything. And if it's questionable/reprehensible or against site policy, it get deleted by mods I'm sure. Which is perfect.
All I'm suggesting is that it seems like it would save the site owners at a lot of work if the stories publishing worked the same way. While at the same time allowing the members to have their stories published immediately.
No one seems to be complaining that the forum works this way.

But it's fine. I'm just making the suggestion and it's purely fueled by my own mistake and impatience as a result of that mistake.

 

[nice90sguy]

only to discover I never submitted for publication. I had accidentally hit save draft instead. Argh!

A common "argh" for me too.

It makes sense (and impresses me a lot) that a human (Laurel) reads pretty much every story before allowing them to be published. Other sites do this too (mcstories for one).

If we didn't have this two-step process of draft -> submit, then I for one would suffer a lot from premature submission of stories, and I'd suffer regret a lot more.

A possible alternative, which I've seen some news sites use for comments, is to allow immediate publication, with a grace period where you can still edit, afer seeing what you've submitted.

By the way @NatalieDePlume I admire your (gender-neutral) cojones publishing your LW cuckold story which I really liked, and currently has (in spite of my 5 vote), an incredibly low score of 1.69.

 

[TheLobster]

If we didn't have this two-step process of draft -> submit, then I for one would suffer a lot from premature submission of stories, and I'd suffer regret a lot more.

A possible alternative, which I've seen some news sites use for comments, is to allow immediate publication, with a grace period where you can still edit, afer seeing what you've submitted.

A simple, predefined, constant delay before publication, such as 1-2 hour, would serve a similar purpose wrt to deterring premature ejaculation of stories.

But considering what crap gets published here already, I doubt the submission queue makes a difference in this regard anyway.

 

[ElectricBlue]

That's really the crux of it. It's not about legal protection; indeed, as @KeithD said, websites hosting user-generated content ("platforms") are protected by the infamous Section 230 from any liability arising from that content violating the law, just as long as it is removed promptly upon reporting. The other caveat to this the limited role such websites must assume -- hosting only, rather than publishing, i.e. applying other filters to the content they allow rather than just mere legality.

Maybe the legal advice 25 years ago was that Lit would in fact be a publisher, not just a host site, with a responsibility for content. I have no idea if that is in fact the case, but it seems feasible to me.

At the end of the day, though, a site which says it hosts adult erotica content, and explicitly excludes underage (the main bugaboo, I'd have thought), gives itself a layer of of protection against any puritanical backlash and interference. I think that's worth a little bit of inconvenience.

 

[ElectricBlue]

But considering what crap gets published here already, I doubt the submission queue makes a difference in this regard anyway.

I think it does. Can you imagine the volume of junk that would get published if there was no control at all until afterwards? And think of the server space that would be needed. The infrastructure would grind to a halt in a day.

 

[NatalieDePlume]

By the way @NatalieDePlume I admire your (gender-neutral) cojones publishing your LW cuckold story which I really liked, and currently has (in spite of my 5 vote), an incredibly low score of 1.69.

Thanks. Wrong category apparently. Lol! Learned my lesson on that one.
The score doesn't bother me, because that story has more people that favorited it then my other two. So despite all the outrage there were quite a few secret fans. But that was also the only time I ever wrote a story like that, and I wrote it a decade ago. Not my typical story type. But it was fun to go extreme.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

And think of the server space that would be needed. The infrastructure would grind to a halt in a day.

Well, not really. The server space needed for text, which is what stories are, is comically small. Putting illustrated stories aside for a moment, by space required, Literotica with all its stories could be hosted even on my own PC. That's how much storage space it requires.
The part of the infrastructure that suffers the most are web servers - the servers that handle access requests from users, and of course the database itself. But I doubt that allowing stories to get published faster would change the number of visitors in a significant way. Literotica already has so many stories and an established readership.
Just pointing out that I doubt there would be much difference in the technical aspect of things regardless of how fast the stories get published. The only reason why it would be problematic is that Lit would get flooded with all kinds of crap and it would be hard to sift through so many stories. Good stories would have a harder time reaching the readers.
Moderation and approval of stories on a website like this one is definitely needed, although whether or not the current model is the best one, is open to debate.

 

[lovecraft68]

I'll go a different route then all the people crying out "The rules" because I'm tired of the denial that goes on here. Instead, I'll bring up that if there wasn't some form of waiting period, the daily lists would be flooded and stories would get buried so far down, a lot of people wouldn't even see them, so staggering the releases helps new stories get a fair amount of attention.

 

[TheLobster]

I'll go a different route then all the people crying out "The rules" because I'm tired of the denial that goes on here. Instead, I'll bring up that if there wasn't some form of waiting period, the daily lists would be flooded and stories would get buried so far down, a lot of people wouldn't even see them, so staggering the releases helps new stories get a fair amount of attention.

That just highlights another problem Literotica has: extremely poor discoverability of good stories. The recommendation system is practically nonexistent, and community-driven curation is basically not a thing either (public lists may change this slightly). The fact that the New Stories page is the main mechanism of promotion only exacerbates the issue of long moderation queues, because it encourages regular postings of new (short) submissions in order to stay relevant on that page.

 

[lovecraft68]

That just highlights another problem Literotica has: extremely poor discoverability of good stories. The recommendation system is practically nonexistent, and community-driven curation is basically not a thing either (public lists may change this slightly). The fact that the New Stories page is the main mechanism of promotion only exacerbates the issue of long moderation queues, because it encourages regular postings of new (short) submissions in order to stay relevant on that page.

The new story list gets broken down into shorter lists when someone searches the category they're in the mood for, so that helps somewhat.

The short submission thing is why I don't like the 750 word challenges, there were a couple of authors flooding the site with these things. It reminded me of when the survivor contest was a thing and in order to get as many points as possible, authors were writing short-and outright rushed and crappy-stories and blowing up the site with them.

Promotion here is limited to the forum and a very small percentage of readers ever come here, and to your point the lists aren't all that helpful.

Not sure what they could do about it, though

 

[TheLobster]

Not sure what they could do about it, though

Better recommendation system for the most part. Due to the nature of the site, you cannot exactly expect people to get their recommendations from IRL friends a'la Goodreads

What's the current landing page for signed in users? There either isn't one, or there are two: one is the same as the anonymous one (/stories), and the other is the admin panel (my.literotica.com) which is clearly geared towards writers, not readers. The first and obvious thing would be fix it: make a landing page for readers that's similar to, say, Youtube, showing you recommendations based on your previously read stories.

Allow readers to follow tags, not just authors. Clean up the tag system in general.
Allow readers to follow story series.
Introduce privacy options that allow your followers to optionally see your comments, maybe even ratings.
Add a feed where messages can be posted for your followers to read.

etc. etc.

Unfortunately, the real problem is always the same: money. We can drop suggestions like this 'til we are blue in the face (fingers?) but what the site really needs is an experienced product manager who would come up will of this and more and a handful of developers to implement it all (and migrate the site to tech stack from this century). In other words, a few million $ at the very least, which is probably orders of magnitude more than the site's current income stream.