Keeping Christ in Christmas…

[amicus]

Yeah, yeah, I know…why would an atheist make such a statement?

A couple small things…a film, “The Christmas Visitor”, just one of hundreds of seasonal films that will be aired for the remainder of the year. And, a daughter, who, after several years immersed in a belief that did not celebrate Holidays of any kind…having her children experience their first Thanksgiving and soon, their very first Christmas.

But more than that, it is a matter of faith and hope, something I consider essential in the psychological well being of people in general and society as a whole.

I picture the celebration of Christmas as a northern hemisphere event, although Christians, through conquest and missionary work, have spread the faith around the globe.

I propose, again, in the northern hemisphere, that the celebration of the winter solstice, the time of year for the shortest day and the longest night, preceded the alleged birth of Christ by thousands of years and was a part of annual celebrations in many social groups.

I try, as a student of History, to place in context, early social groups before scientific method was in use and faith, or belief, and picture what their existence must have been like.

One might compare the ancient’s fears of drought, famine, floods, volcanoes and even warfare, with the current knowledge of man concerning asteroids, solar flares, cosmic radiation and a host of survival threats that science has discovered but cannot prevent or predict.

Thus…I gingerly conclude, an aspect of ‘faith’, even in these very modern times, is essential to the well being of humanity in general.

Amicus

 

[amicus]

Hmmph! So, Okay, 41 Litsters read this and no one took a shot?

How droll.

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!

amicus

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

AMICUS

The problem for Usual Suspects is they have nuthin much to compete with Christmas except April 15th. But most of the time Christmas is when they show up without shirt or shoes and demand service when coat and tie are required dress.

For me Christmas is one day to set aside all the BS and slacking, and do the right thing.

 

[amicus]

Hello, James, Season's Greetings and all that...

I hold, as a truth of sorts, that any rational, reasonably well educated person soon recognizes the logical fallacy in such myths as Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny...and...the BIG one, God.

As far as the 'usual suspects' go, I do wonder if they, in general, celebrate the Christmas Holidays, paying lip service to religion even as they doubt the mythological lore of the celebration.

We know that some liberal progressive's make a stand of sorts in complaining about religious symbols on public property; Christmas Trees, Nativity Scenes and any form of religious instruction in public schools...but do they continue to celebrate the season?

amicus

 

[oggbashan]

Whether the biblical Christmas actually took place on December 25th is not proven.

What is certain is that Christians have agreed on that date as the right one to celebrate the birth of Christ. The reasons for that choice might well relate to trying to overwrite pre-Christian rituals that were about that time. More than 2000 years after the event it doesn't really matter that a pagan rite used to be observed on that date. It is the day, for Christians, to remember the Nativity.

What is more worrying is that, year after year, the increased commerciality of Christmas is swamping the reason for the celebration.

'Peace on Earth; Goodwill to Men' is being lost in 'spend, spend, spend on this Xmas' Must-Have gadget'.

Whether you are a Christian or not, you should regret the trivialisation of the event.

Og

 

[amicus]

Good morning Og, and thank you.

I rather suspect, 'it is what it is', in regards to the commercialism.

As I attempt to comprehend what it must have been like in previous ages, before any organized religion took hold; I am also attempting to address the purpose and function of 'faith' in modern society.

I do so as objectively as I can, to better understand the nature of the characters I create, without prejudice, for various stories.

I sense, but cannot know, what the absence of faith does, when one is without an objective foundation concerning human actions.

Personally, I set aside my concerns during the youth of my children, and celebrated all the commercialism we have grown to love and appreciate.

Cheers!

ami

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Hello, James, Season's Greetings and all that...

I hold, as a truth of sorts, that any rational, reasonably well educated person soon recognizes the logical fallacy in such myths as Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny...and...the BIG one, God.

As far as the 'usual suspects' go, I do wonder if they, in general, celebrate the Christmas Holidays, paying lip service to religion even as they doubt the mythological lore of the celebration.

We know that some liberal progressive's make a stand of sorts in complaining about religious symbols on public property; Christmas Trees, Nativity Scenes and any form of religious instruction in public schools...but do they continue to celebrate the season?

amicus

Theyre dogs in mangers, so Christmas has a special significane for them.

 

[Boota]

I despise Christmas. I try to stay out of public as much as possible because it brings out the worst in people and makes them just scream to be hit. Christians should not celebrate Christmas because it is essentially the worship of another god, just packaged differently. (If there were a Hell I'd hope they burn for it. Lucky for them there's not.) Atheists should not celebrate it because even though it is not Christian as most believe, it is still religious, just pagan. Pagans, by all rights, should be the ONLY ones celebrating this holiday.

As JBJ pointed out its the one day a year when people should set aside BS and slacking and do the right thing. Those are the people I hate the most. Total worthless pricks all year and they think now shit is cool because they dropped their leftover change in a Salvation Army kettle.

The ONLY thing I can respect about Christmas at all is the commercialism. I hate Christmas, but I really like the royalty checks I get in March.

 

[sr71plt]

Hmmph! So, Okay, 41 Litsters read this and no one took a shot?

How droll.

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!

amicus

It's neither Christmas nor Christ that are offputting, Amicus. It's you.

Off to help decorate a tree and then on to church choir practice.

 

[Pure]

ami: an aspect of ‘faith’, even in these very modern times, is essential to the well being of humanity in general.

which is why you have your faith, amicus, the James Dobson variant of objectivism, or 'free market, america first, and family values.'

you might mention also that another reason people adopt faiths *and tell others about it*, is to obtain a kind of ingroup, often superior status. this motive is rather evident in all your posts. your feeling of superiority about your faith as described above.

faiths too, are often connected with the desire to spread the faith, i.e. evangelize. this is not found generally in either chemists or anthropologists (that is, scientists), but is found, in spades, among Randists, and the prolife subspecies of them. again, blatant in your posts.

---

OH, Happy Holidays, and i hope your recovery is proceeding well, that you're in remission etc. Best to all of you, and yours.!

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

BOOTA

Christmas is one day out of the year we can look at and contemplate whats possible. Corporations and Usual Suspects and Ragheads et al leech the occasion to have an audience for their prancing in their underoos, but its a Christian celebration.

 

[Handley_Page]

What is more worrying is that, year after year, the increased commercialism of Christmas is swamping the reason for the celebration.

'Peace on Earth; Goodwill to Men' is being lost in 'spend, spend, spend on this Xmas' Must-Have gadget'.

Whether you are a Christian or not, you should regret the trivialisation of the event.

Og

Oh, how true, Ogg. And there are many who say it. Quite why Firms don't accede to the public view is a bit of a mystery.
We have Christmas bits in our local CoOp the first week of November!.

 

[Boota]

BOOTA

Christmas is one day out of the year we can look at and contemplate whats possible. Corporations and Usual Suspects and Ragheads et al leech the occasion to have an audience for their prancing in their underoos, but its a Christian celebration.

There is nothing Christian about Christmas other than the name they hung on it. It is strictly an adopted holiday from the pagans celebrating the rebirth of their Sun God. Christianity didn't stomp out paganism, it just adopted it.

Christmas is it's own thing. People don't think about the origins of the holiday when they're doing what they do. For Christians, even though they are totally wrong about the nature of the holiday, it is about the birth of their Christ. For pagans it is as it was always intended. For atheists, most of whom celebrate the holiday in a secular manner, it's a day of following family traditions with no religious intention. For me, it's a huge pain in the ass for an entire month. It's all obligation. Until I got married I was completely out of Christmas, but we do things for our wives. Until next year. No matter who it pisses off I've informed everyone that I'm going back to being out of the whole deal. I get a lot done when everyone leaves me alone for the whole day. I think that should be my present to myself.

 

[JackLuis]

What Christmas means to America, yes commercialism and the relentless din of Christmas Music, the jingle of Salvation Army Bells, and yet, what Ami said.

Humans react to photo period and in this time of long cold (Northern Himi) nights, Human kind has found warmth in the fellowship of the fire and feast since the dinosaurs were wiped out.

Now separated as we are in modern society, families separated by vast distances, generation separated by changing values, herded into classes by our society, which classifies every blessed thing into good or Bad, Right or Wrong with no compromise for the unknown, or the unknowable, we find ourselves commanded to keep the Chinese economy moving. It is no wonder we are skitzo?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

BOOTA

I'm not a Christian. I think Jesus was a sad sack exiled from the Jewish community. In his time rabbis were as common as black preachers today, and he was definitely small time.

That said, I value the Christmas occasion because it reminds us whats possible.

 

[Quiet_Cool]

There is nothing Christian about Christmas other than the name they hung on it. It is strictly an adopted holiday from the pagans celebrating the rebirth of their Sun God. Christianity didn't stomp out paganism, it just adopted it.

Christmas is it's own thing. People don't think about the origins of the holiday when they're doing what they do. For Christians, even though they are totally wrong about the nature of the holiday, it is about the birth of their Christ. For pagans it is as it was always intended.

I have to agree that it's a pain in the ass. 100% It's also not really about anything meaningful anymore. But I'll disagree with the above mentioned (to a degree).

Christians didn't adopt the holiday from Pagans. They are different holidays altogether, each celebrated for their own reasons (originally). Christmas was simply "rescheduled" in order to ease the transition should some pagans choose to adopt Christianity, from their former lifestyle celebrating the Pagan holiday at a similar time.

As Ogg suggested, the date isn't debatable (in terms of religious accuracy), but entirely wrong. If there was a Christ, born as the stories suggested, he would have been borne of Mary and Joseph on their way to pay taxes to the Romans, which were collected in either August or September. In order for the date to be accurate, they would have to live 7-8 months away from their destination, making it hardly feasible that they would even make it home in time to start back the following year.

Q_C

 

[amicus]

ami: an aspect of ‘faith’, even in these very modern times, is essential to the well being of humanity in general.

which is why you have your faith, amicus, the James Dobson variant of objectivism, or 'free market, america first, and family values.'

you might mention also that another reason people adopt faiths *and tell others about it*, is to obtain a kind of ingroup, often superior status. this motive is rather evident in all your posts. your feeling of superiority about your faith as described above.

faiths too, are often connected with the desire to spread the faith, i.e. evangelize. this is not found generally in either chemists or anthropologists (that is, scientists), but is found, in spades, among Randists, and the prolife subspecies of them. again, blatant in your posts.

---

OH, Happy Holidays, and i hope your recovery is proceeding well, that you're in remission etc. Best to all of you, and yours.![/QUOTE]

~~~

Aww, geez, Pure, thank you and Season's Greetings to you and yours as well.

I really don't mind you evading the subject and coming out with a personal attack; 'I've grown accustomed to your...' (old song)

There is the small matter of words, such as 'faith' and 'knowledge', that continually escape your differentiation.

After years of debating each other, one would think we would acknowledge our polarity and, indeed, revel in it as an intellectual curiosity, rather than a subject of irritation and retaliation.

The issue presented is one of faith in general and in the abstract and not yours or mine and thus not personal.

Conceptually, as man has progressed intellectually beyond mere faith and acceptance into a recent era of focused thought and deliberation over issues of import, such as a means to determine moral and ethical questions without the reliance on a Bible or other such compendium of faith's past.

The reason Ayn Rand and her works remain wildly popular, years after her death and a half century past her major fictional publications, is because she offered a rational and objective approach to comprehending all aspects of human existence, including man's moral premises founded upon reason and not faith.

Now I know that troubles you and continues to elicit denials from your lofty perch of righteous indignation towards anyone offering reason and rationality as a means of comprehending the emotional and intellectual facets of the indivdual.

I paraphrase our current President; "I can only seek a collective salvation for my soul, there is no individual path to faith, only a collective one..." Parsed as well as I could from memory.

Although others may not understand my meaning; you do, and accurately.

Being among the intellectual elite, who are too, too sophisticated to ever get down on their knees before a God of any description, you follow the Kantian and Marxist dialectic of collective morality, in which morals and ethics are determined collectively, by the group, and not by the individual.

Rejecting all moral absolutes, such as are provided by faith, you scurry forth to announce that there are no moral or ethical absolutes and that any action by any man, is subjective and relative, and thus beyond the criticism of anyone, anywhere at anytime.

I don't mind you sniping at my moral absolutes or my supposition that an universal, objective, rational hierarchy of human values exists naturally in the definition of sentient life, e.g., an absolute moral code by which man can determine good and evil and act accordingly.

I am quite willing and able to defend or explain any aspect of my ethical postulates and I don't mind you asking or challenging them. What I do mind, as I have often related, is your refusal to either present or defend your value system.

Do you know any moral imperative upon which you will be willing to expand? Or will you just take the easy way out and state that nothing is real?



I remain:

Amicus

 

[Boota]

I have to agree that it's a pain in the ass. 100% It's also not really about anything meaningful anymore. But I'll disagree with the above mentioned (to a degree).

Christians didn't adopt the holiday from Pagans. They are different holidays altogether, each celebrated for their own reasons (originally). Christmas was simply "rescheduled" in order to ease the transition should some pagans choose to adopt Christianity, from their former lifestyle celebrating the Pagan holiday at a similar time.

As Ogg suggested, the date isn't debatable (in terms of religious accuracy), but entirely wrong. If there was a Christ, born as the stories suggested, he would have been borne of Mary and Joseph on their way to pay taxes to the Romans, which were collected in either August or September. In order for the date to be accurate, they would have to live 7-8 months away from their destination, making it hardly feasible that they would even make it home in time to start back the following year.

Q_C

Which parts of the holiday are Christian parts not taken from it's pagan roots? Besides the Jesus facade?

 

[sr71plt]

As with other elements in Christianity, existing pagan ceremonies and traditions and event timings were usurped for the Christian Christmas to make it more comfortable for pagans to switch over. I don't think that's been a great historical secret.

 

[Handley_Page]

Can we settle for "Keep the spirit of Christmas" please?

 

[mynameisben]

I can't speak for the rest of the world, but here in the good ol' United States, Christmas is NOT a religious holiday. It hasn't been for decades. In this country, majority rules. And on that basis, Christmas is a retail holiday, pure and simple. With consumer spending accounting for the lion's share of America's GDP, Christmas has long been our battered economy's savior. Now, more than ever. 'Tis the season for millions of America's wealthy to come together in a fellowship of prayer. They pray for their investment portfolios. They pray for stability in short term interest rates. They pray for an end to jobless benefits for the poor. But more than anything else, they pray for consumer confidence to rise, and for the merry sound of cash registers jing-tingling across this great land. Christmas isn't just good for America's bottom line. It's a godsend.

Profit ahead of prophet, always. But thank you God, for Christmas.

 

[JackLuis]

The Christmas Season, from "Black Friday to Boxing Day" also reminds us of the Prince of Peace who's life story tells us to not count on the generosity of spirit from Priests, Politicians, or Money Leaders.

Thank you Jesus.

 

[amicus]

Can we settle for "Keep the spirit of Christmas" please

?

~~~

You phrase that as a question, Handley, assuming that everyone shares a definition or meaning of the 'spirit of Christmas'; just what is it?

What about Scrooge and the Dickensonian view of 'the Christmas spirit'?

Just askin'.

ami

 

[sr71plt]

~~~

You phrase that as a question, Handley, assuming that everyone shares a definition or meaning of the 'spirit of Christmas'; just what is it?

What about Scrooge and the Dickensonian view of 'the Christmas spirit'?

Just askin'.

ami

How about letting each one decide that for her/himself? You claim to to push individual rights. How about doing that and stop pushing your views on everyone else?

 

[amicus]

Some 'wag' in the past few days described Congress as a group which could not even agree that the sky was blue.

Reasonable people may differ on whether chocolate ice cream or vanilla is the most tasty...fine...thas why there are many varieties of most things in the free market place.

Your particular problem is endemic among a particular segment of society; that which has a problem with the concept of 'Universals' in an epistemological setting.

It is a most debilitating malady, as some cannot make the decision of whether to begin a walk with the right foot or the left, and thus remain stationary all their lives.



Amicus the beloved....