Katrina Disaster

[amicus]

I find I must agree with Weird Harold...although I think few of us can even begin to comprehend the situation those Officers found themselves in following the arrival of the storm.

The wind and rain of the storm, as we can now see, caused tremendous damage to many parts of New Orleans proper. We may someday learn, from first hand accounts of what happened when the levees broke and the water began to rise in different parts of the city.

I can imagine the policemen when they discovered their radios, communications systems did not function and they could neither contact each other or headquarters.

I cannot imagine their thoughts as they found streets and roads blocked my downed trees and power poles and debris and then flooded.

We know of course that most had families that they were concerned about and most likely had no means to either communicate or travel to give assistance.

But many policemen did maintain order and work within their ability to carry out their jobs.

Although the Media told us otherwise, there were both police and Louisiana National Guard troops inside both the Superdome and the Convention Center, maintaining order.

It is now known that there were no 'rapes' committed in either building and that the violence was controlled by police and national guard.

So while one can understand those officers that left to protect their families, one cannot condone their choice to do that.

And those that just deserted, one can still understand in the terror of the storm and the flood, but to leave their posts, was an is unacceptable.

And while many on these threads have raged against the Federal government, it was under the orders of the Governor of Louisiana and the mayor of New Orleans that would not permit Federal troops into the city or Red Cross people to go to the assistance of those who needed help so badly.

amicus....

 

[Guest]

Sarah, the job of the police still existed whether they had any hope of accomplishing it or not.

Please note, I'm NOT complaining about all of th 300-400 missing officers, just those characterized as "some just left."

Their departure contributed to the fact that the police who remained were "outnumbered and outgunned" -- which may or may not have been the actual case, but It's not much different from the situation most police departments are in everyday anyway; police all over America are always "outnumbered and outgunned."

It has been nearly 12 days since Katrina made landfall and any Police officer who wanted to could have made his way back to headquarters and added one more small bit of law and order to the City of New Orleans. Even if he stopped along the way to rescue someone or organize a group of surviviors there has been more than enough time for a police officer with any kind of commitment to do the job he was hired to so to have done so and still reported in for more.

Every police officer that died or deserted added to the chaos and problems in New Orleans. I can't fault the ones who died, but I can certainly fault the ones who deserted because their job was NOT gone and they were needed on the job more than any other time in their life.

Of course, my military background and the values I was raised with in the immediate aftermath of the Korean War are much different than the kinder gentler "no-fault" civilian society we have now, but I find I have no desire to moderate those prejudices whenit comes to someone who is hired to do a difficult job who leaves his comrades in the lurch when the job actually gets difficult. I don't expect a polie officer to be a super-hero or more than human, but despite the impression the media is portraying, the situation in New Orleans didn't require supermen, just ordinary human beings with a will to do whatever they could to help.

My father feels the same way.

And I do understand, but I have trouble getting past the thought of these public servants, many of whom lost everything, attempting to do this impossible job.

I read that two of the officers had committed suicide and I wonder if other missing officers are dead.

Also, the ones who haven't yet reported back, even though the situation is becoming more normal? I wonder if they are searching for lost family members.

It's just tragic, no matter how you examine the situation.

 

[Weird Harold]

My father feels the same way.

And I do understand, but I have trouble getting past the thought of these public servants, many of whom lost everything, attempting to do this impossible job.

I read that two of the officers had committed suicide and I wonder if other missing officers are dead.

Also, the ones who haven't yet reported back, even though the situation is becoming more normal? I wonder if they are searching for lost family members.

It's just tragic, no matter how you examine the situation.

Yes it's tragic, but I think you'll find that most of my generation feel much as I do -- when you take a job that other people's lives can epend on, youdo NOT abandan that job when the people who should be able to depend on you need you the most.

I can sympathize to some extent with officers worrying about their families because I was on temporary duty with the Arkansas Air National Guard when Hurricane Frederic took a path about 100 miles east of Katrina's path in Sep 1979. (http://www.geocities.com/hurricanene/hurricanefrederic.htm)

My family, was still at MacDill AFB in Tampa, FL when the base was evacuated because Frederic was expected to turn east and take roughly the same kind of path that Charlie took last year. (The the highest point on on Macdill AFB is 12 feet above mean sea level and that is a man-made mound covering an underground alert bunker from when MacDill was a bomber base.)The base housing my family was in is located just three hundred yards from McKay Bay.)

So I do have some first-hand experience with the conflict between duty and family -- but, since if anyone could be convinced to evacuate in a timely manner from New Orleans it was probably the families of the first-responders IN New Orleans, I don't have much more sympathy for any first-responder (Police, Fire, EMT or otherwise) who deserted their post to "care for their families" over the ones who completely abandoned all responsibilities and ran.

Those who stayed and did their jobs to the best of their ability deserve all of the praise and glory that was heaped on New York's first-responders a year ago (even though they probably aren't going to get it because of those who deserted). Those that didn't already have reservations in Hell and the sooner they check in the better, IMO.

 

[minsue]

What in the hell are they thinking?? Yanking Brown is probably a good idea, though changing command mid-crisis scares me, but this issue of making it harder to get aid is insane. They promoted the hell out of handing out $2,000 debit cards to victims and then changed their mind? Not that it was the most well thought out plan in the first place, you had to register to get the cards by phone or internet - evacuees don't have the greatest access to either of those at the moment, but how can they promise these people at least a little bit of money and then just say 'never mind' two days later?

FEMA Dumps Brown As Katrina Relief Chief

By LARA JAKES JORDAN, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 11 minutes ago

The Bush administration dumped FEMA Director Michael Brown as commander of Hurricane Katrina relief efforts Friday, then abruptly scrapped plans to give $2,000 debit cards to displaced storm victims as it struggled to get a grip on the recovery operation.

Buffeted by criticism, President Bush stirred memories of the 2001 terror attacks as he hailed the "acts of great compassion and extraordinary bravery from America's first responders," then as now.

Brown, who had come to personify a relief operation widely panned as bumbling, will be replaced by Coast Guard Vice Adm. Thad W. Allen. Allen had been in charge of relief, recovery and rescue efforts for New Orleans.

The decision to order Brown back to Washington from Louisiana — he remains as director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency — marked the administration's latest attempt to assert leadership in the wake of the devastating storm and its aftermath, including the weakest public opinion polls of Bush's time in office.

Still, there was fresh evidence of raggedness in the effort when FEMA announced late in the day that it would discontinue a two-day-old program to issue debit cards worth $2,000 to displaced families. Evacuees relocated to Texas, many of whom began receiving cards on Friday, will continue getting them, officials said.

Hurricane victims at other locations will have to apply for expedited aid through the agency's traditional route — filling out information on FEMA's Web site to receive direct bank deposits, FEMA spokeswoman Natalie Rule said.

Brown introduced the program on Wednesday, calling it "a great way to ... empower these hurricane survivors to really start rebuilding their lives."

At the White House, spokesman Scott McClellan said the decision to reassign Brown had been made by Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff and that Bush supported it.

One Republican welcomed Brown's ouster with unusually sharp language. "Something needed to happen. Michael Brown has been acting like a private instead of a general," said Sen. Trent Lott of Mississippi, whose state was hard-hit by the storm.

Senate Democrats, who have been sharply critical of Bush's response to the storm, said the president should not have left Brown as head of FEMA. In a letter to the president, the Democratic leader, Sen. Harry Reid of Nevada, and three other members of the leadership called for the dismissal of the FEMA director.

He "simply doesn't have the ability or the experience to oversee a coordinated federal response of this magnitude," wrote Reid and Sens. Dick Durbin of Illinois, Chuck Schumer of New York and Debbie Stabenow of Michigan.

Separately, Reid and Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist opened private discussions over a GOP plan for a congressional committee to investigate the administration's readiness for the storm and reaction to it.

Republicans hold a majority in both the House and Senate, and Frist and Speaker Dennis Hastert announced plans this week for a joint panel with more GOP members than Democrats. Reid and House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi have said they would boycott the proceedings, calling for an independent commission instead.

Bush's public support rose dramatically in the days following the attacks of 2001. He linked that time with the present at a ceremony Friday awarding medals to family members of fire, police and other first responders killed by terrorists four years ago.

"When America has been challenged, there have always been citizens willing to step forward and risk their lives for the rest of us," the president said. "Over the last 11 days in Louisiana and Mississippi and Alabama, we have again seen acts of great compassion and extraordinary bravery from America's first responders."

Bush said the nation was "still at the beginning of a huge effort. The tasks before us are enormous. Yet so is the heart of the United States."

Thus far, the tab for federal relief has reached $62.3 billion, with billions more expected to be needed in the months and years to come.

The rising price tag spread nervousness among some lawmakers. Rep. Zach Wamp, R-Tenn., touring a shelter for evacuees in Chattanooga, said the combined cost of recovery and the Iraq War were a good reason to postpone a costly Medicare prescription drug benefit.

Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., said mere reconstruction of a Gulf Coast area that is home to large numbers of poor black Americans wasn't enough. "When we rebuild the land ravaged by the winds and the floods, we must rebuild it to be a more just and fair land," he said.

The government continued to produce reports and declarations testifying to the destructive power of the storm that roared out of the Gulf of Mexico and spread destruction along the coast from Texas to Florida.

The Commerce Department declared a fishery failure in the region, an action that makes federal relief funds available to assess and repair damage to fisheries. Fishermen will be eligible for direct assistance, as well.

Brown had faced fierce, bipartisan criticism for days, and on Friday, was confronted with questions of whether he had padded his professional resume.

Chertoff announced his fate to reporters in Louisiana, saying, the director had "done everything he possibly could to coordinate the federal response to this unprecedented challenge."

Asked if he was being made a scapegoat, Brown told The Associated Press after a long pause: "By the press, yes. By the president, no."

As for his plans, he said, "I'm going to go home and walk my dog and hug my wife, and maybe get a good Mexican meal and a stiff margarita and a full night's sleep.

"And then I'm going to go right back to FEMA and continue to do all I can to help these victims."

Allen, tapped to replace Brown, has direct experience in hurricane relief operations.

Early in his Coast Guard career, Allen was involved in search-and-rescue missions and later directed them in the Caribbean. He headed Coast Guard operations in the Southeast United States and the Caribbean.

In the days after the 2001 terrorist attacks, he was assigned to make sure the ports and waterways were secure and that local responders in the New York area had the vessels, aircraft and personnel they needed.

 

[amicus]

Minsue...quite expected that the usual suspects would propagate the anti Bush, anti administration rhetoric for political means.

Even the jaded poplulation of Literotica will see your effort for that which it is, a politically motivated gesture.

I have yet to see a single one of the 'usual suspects' recognize that Katrina is a natural disaster of unprecedented magnitude that requires the compassion of all Americans.

You offer nothing but criticism to a ravaged population, you are without shame, without compassion and without honor.

But then, I knew that.

amicus...

 

[Weird Harold]

What in the hell are they thinking?? Yanking Brown is probably a good idea, though changing command mid-crisis scares me, but this issue of making it harder to get aid is insane. They promoted the hell out of handing out $2,000 debit cards to victims and then changed their mind?

I don't know what to think of the cash card fiasco, but I suspect that someone figure out that issuing cash cards requires a supplyof cards to encode and equipment to encode them.

Yanking Brown back to where he's supposed to have been the whole time where hopefully he can start taking a look at things like Hurricane Ophelia and figuring out where the relief for North and South Carolina is going to come from without looking evenmore inept (see attachment)

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Minsue...quite expected that the usual suspects would propagate the anti Bush, anti administration rhetoric for political means.

Even the jaded poplulation of Literotica will see your effort for that which it is, a politically motivated gesture.

I have yet to see a single one of the 'usual suspects' recognize that Katrina is a natural disaster of unprecedented magnitude that requires the compassion of all Americans.

You offer nothing but criticism to a ravaged population, you are without shame, without compassion and without honor.

But then, I knew that.

amicus...

Amicus, you owe her an apology.

No one on this board is sweeter or more self sacrificingly compassionate as Mindy. No one. She honestly cares for people, even thouse she has never met.

You are well within bounds to disagree with her politics. You are well within those bounds to attack the article or her conclusions. But you have crossed the line in attacking her personally. I had though that kind of debateing styke was the province of the bullet not you.

 

[minsue]

Minsue...quite expected that the usual suspects would propagate the anti Bush, anti administration rhetoric for political means.

Even the jaded poplulation of Literotica will see your effort for that which it is, a politically motivated gesture.

I have yet to see a single one of the 'usual suspects' recognize that Katrina is a natural disaster of unprecedented magnitude that requires the compassion of all Americans.

You offer nothing but criticism to a ravaged population, you are without shame, without compassion and without honor.

But then, I knew that.

amicus...

Amicus, I would be just as angry about yanking the benefit if it were done by a dem administration. But then, I'm sure you knew that.

As for my compassion, you can shove it up your ass.

 

[minsue]

Amicus, you owe her an apology.

No one on this board is sweeter or more self sacrificingly compassionate as Mindy. No one. She honestly cares for people, even thouse she has never met.

You are well within bounds to disagree with her politics. You are well within those bounds to attack the article or her conclusions. But you have crossed the line in attacking her personally. I had though that kind of debateing styke was the province of the bullet not you.

Thank you.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I don't know what to think of the cash card fiasco, but I suspect that someone figure out that issuing cash cards requires a supplyof cards to encode and equipment to encode them.

Yanking Brown back to where he's supposed to have been the whole time where hopefully he can start taking a look at things like Hurricane Ophelia and figuring out where the relief for North and South Carolina is going to come from without looking evenmore inept (see attachment)

WH, why is the director of FEMA not a military position? It would seem in emergency, with so much of the relief relying on the military, someone within the established chain of command would be better suited to the task than someone like brown who carries no weight at all outside of washinton political circles?

 

[minsue]

I don't know what to think of the cash card fiasco, but I suspect that someone figure out that issuing cash cards requires a supplyof cards to encode and equipment to encode them.

I'd wondered about that part myself. It's impressive how quickly they got out the number that they did in such a short time.

 

[LadyJeanne]

Amicus, you owe her an apology.

No one on this board is sweeter or more self sacrificingly compassionate as Mindy. No one. She honestly cares for people, even thouse she has never met.

You are well within bounds to disagree with her politics. You are well within those bounds to attack the article or her conclusions. But you have crossed the line in attacking her personally. I had though that kind of debateing styke was the province of the bullet not you.

You must have missed his pigs and fleas metaphor and there was also some talk of boiling people in their own oils...

 

[amicus]

Minsue made a post/paste of this article: FEMA Dumps Brown As Katrina Relief Chief

By LARA JAKES JORDAN, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 11 minutes ago


Perhaps it is guilt by association, but very little 'compassion' was shown in that rant, as Michael Brown is also a human being and has perhaps found to be lacking in the ability to perform as required.

I don't know...neither do you. I have no personal knowledge of Minsue, nor do I follow her posts with any regularity. No personal afront was intended, but you know that.

This is a forum where both personal thoughts and opinions are expressed, I always try to do so with some degree of restraint, many others do not. But when one chooses to post the thoughts of others to express a view of their own, then the content spills over.

amicus...

 

[Weird Harold]

WH, why is the director of FEMA not a military position? It would seem in emergency, with so much of the relief relying on the military, someone within the established chain of command would be better suited to the task than someone like brown who carries no weight at all outside of washinton political circles?

Actually, IMHO, a military person is exactly who should NOT be in charge of FEMA. The complete reasoning is complex, but it boils down to the simple fact that FEMA is not a military organization and in some circumstances has powers that the Military is barred from having under the Posse Comitatus act.

Another point to consider is that the Director of FEMA was and his boss is a Cabinet level position -- i.e. a political position -- and military leaders have seldom been good politicians.

I think the world of big business and corporate COO's (not CEOs) is the best place to look for the skills needed. Although there does need to be a competent military liason in the upper ranks of DHS/FEMA they should NOT be in charge.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Actually, IMHO, a military person is exactly who should NOT be in charge of FEMA. The complete reasoning is complex, but it boils down to the simple fact that FEMA is not a military organization and in some circumstances has powers that the Military is barred from having under the Posse Comitatus act.

Another point to consider is that the Director of FEMA was and his boss is a Cabinet level position -- i.e. a political position -- and military leaders have seldom been good politicians.

I think the world of big business and corporate COO's (not CEOs) is the best place to look for the skills needed. Although there does need to be a competent military liason in the upper ranks of DHS/FEMA they should NOT be in charge.

I didn't realize it was a cabnet level position. I thought FEMA fell under Dept. of Homeland Security?

 

[The_Darkness]

I didn't realize it was a cabnet level position. I thought FEMA fell under Dept. of Homeland Security?

I was under the impression that FEMA was not to be integrated into the DHS because it's not an information gathering organization by nature...it just fixes the major problems, such as hurricane clean up, toxic spills, et cetera.

 

[Weird Harold]

I didn't realize it was a cabnet level position. I thought FEMA fell under Dept. of Homeland Security?

It WAS a cabinet level position that was replaced by the DHS position when it was subordinated to DHS. The "director" of FEMA is technically an "under-secretary" now instead of a full "secretary" in the president's Cabinet.

Regardless is a political position for manyof the same reasons that the Secretary of defense and the Secretary of the individual armed services are political positions -- their jobs are to set policy rather than actively manage the portfolios; the active management is supposed to be handled by permanent non-political employees.

When political appointees get too involved in active management -- AKA micromanagment -- bad things usually happen.

 

[Weird Harold]

I was under the impression that FEMA was not to be integrated into the DHS because it's not an information gathering organization by nature...it just fixes the major problems, such as hurricane clean up, toxic spills, et cetera.

That's exactly why they ARE under DHS.

Keeping FEMA as a separate agency would require that DHS duplicate much of their organizational structure to deal with terrorist caused disasters. merging the two agencies is a logical move -- if a poorly implemented move when push comes to shove.

 

[amicus]

Not to belabor the point, but the Federal Emergency Management Agency, FEMA, was created to deal with 'emergency' situations that were beyond the ability of local city and state agencies to deal with.

That makes some sense, I would think, to almost anyone.

The Department of Homeland Security, controversial from the inception, was created to deal with 'terrorist' threats and to coordinate a nationwide response to a situation, such as 9/11, that required a wider range of assistance.

Again, not a bad idea.

The results?

May need some modifications....


amicus...

 

[The_Darkness]

That's exactly why they ARE under DHS.

Keeping FEMA as a separate agency would require that DHS duplicate much of their organizational structure to deal with terrorist caused disasters. merging the two agencies is a logical move -- if a poorly implemented move when push comes to shove.

So does that mean that ultimate power in any given disaster now yeilds to DHS like it used to yield to FEMA?

 

[Weird Harold]

So does that mean that ultimate power in any given disaster now yeilds to DHS like it used to yield to FEMA?

Moreso, since as I understand it, FEMA was never the the "ultimate power" in any given disaster when it was a stand-alone agency, it was just the supply clerk and banker for local disaster response agencies.

Under the Patriot Act, there is now a new disaster status that does give DHS technical control of all assets. That new status was invoked for the very first time late Tuesay, 30 Aug when Sec Chertoff declared an "incident of national signifigance."

IMHO many of the problems can be ascribed to the fact that, like you and many others here at Lit or on the web, the people in the hotseat don't fully understand how the merger of FEMA and DHS is supposed to work either -- or even in some cases how the old system with just FEMA was supposed to work.

You could spend a couple of hours -- or days -- reading the DHS and FEMA websites and the full version of the National Response Plan (400+ pages in PDF format) but you have to read very carefully to determine what powers are enabled by which type of declaration (emergency, disaster and incident of national signifigance) to sort out who is supposed to be in charge at what stage of something like Katrina. Unfortunately the NRP relies too heavily on voluntary cooperation and doesn't have any teeth to enforce the technical changes in the chains of command it provides for.

 

[The_Darkness]

Moreso, since as I understand it, FEMA was never the the "ultimate power" in any given disaster when it was a stand-alone agency, it was just the supply clerk and banker for local disaster response agencies.

Under the Patriot Act, there is now a new disaster status that does give DHS technical control of all assets. That new status was invoked for the very first time late Tuesay, 30 Aug when Sec Chertoff declared an "incident of national signifigance."

IMHO many of the problems can be ascribed to the fact that, like you and many others here at Lit or on the web, the people in the hotseat don't fully understand how the merger of FEMA and DHS is supposed to work either -- or even in some cases how the old system with just FEMA was supposed to work.

You could spend a couple of hours -- or days -- reading the DHS and FEMA websites and the full version of the National Response Plan (400+ pages in PDF format) but you have to read very carefully to determine what powers are enabled by which type of declaration (emergency, disaster and incident of national signifigance) to sort out who is supposed to be in charge at what stage of something like Katrina. Unfortunately the NRP relies too heavily on voluntary cooperation and doesn't have any teeth to enforce the technical changes in the chains of command it provides for.

Of that, I have no doubt. Of any of it, really. So just to add another question to the mix, where does that put us in a state such as we have in NO? Martial Law has been declared (and may have been lifted by now, I'm not even keeping track any more) so is DHS simply writing checks and supervising clean up and touching on security needs?

 

[shereads]

The latest elected official to step into the swamp was Rep. Richard H. Baker, a 10-term Republican from Baton Rouge. The Wall Street Journal reported yesterday that he was overheard telling lobbyists: "We finally cleaned up public housing in New Orleans. We couldn't do it, but God did."

Sweet.

 

[The_Darkness]

Sweet.

Ouch.

 

[shereads]

This is a forum where both personal thoughts and opinions are expressed, I always try to do so with some degree of restraint, many others do not.

This made me choke on my uvula.