Katrina Disaster

[Weird Harold]

Don't ever change your communsitic america hating ways.

If you MUST disrupt the thread with personal attacks, youmight at least consider consulting a dictionary of political terms and get the insults at least on the same side of the political spectrum.

Calling Amicus a communist is on a par with calling Stalin a humanitarian.

 

[amicus]

Dear Luc...I have not read any of your fiction, if you write...thus I have no comment, but as a debater, you suck...and do not really belong in this forum, somebody had to tell you.

amicus...

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

If you MUST disrupt the thread with personal attacks, youmight at least consider consulting a dictionary of political terms and get the insults at least on the same side of the political spectrum.

Calling Amicus a communist is on a par with calling Stalin a humanitarian.

Shh, I'm playing with a happy fun ball. I'm calling him a communist because he's sure as hell no capitalist. His brand is more a horribly bastardized Marxism, taking the idea of capitalism from him and turning that into reality over real capitalism.

And I do hold true hatred for all profiteerers, political and economic on this tragedy. And those who fuck up, whether Republican or Democrat or both should be held accountable at the end of the day. It's a genuine point, just with a twist. If you read it over, I'm sure you'll get it.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

That's probably because it isn't a debate. No one can have a debate with you and this thread certainly ain't a debate, it's a whole bunch of people casting one sided stones and not getting the fundamental things everyone (supposedly) agrees on. Which is:

1) This is a horrific tragedy that shouldn't be played for anyone's advantage.
2) Some people should be held accountable for the fuckups.
3) We are still obviously a quite racist nation and should stop bullshiting ourselves that we aren't.
4) Everyone should be working together to get everyone out of there and into a safe location with as much speed as possible.
5) Every little bit helps, regardless of the source.


Or are we all bullshitting ourselves?

 

[Liar]

I gotta adminre amicus. It took him only one post to turn this pretty sober (considering the circumstances) thread into his usual "critisize The Leader and you are a sub-human America hater puke"-circus. Well done.

 

[Couture]

Why not play the 'race' card now, Courture..is that not next in your repertoire?


amicus...

I love it! In other words you have no possible explanation as to why the president is strumming his little guitar at a photo op in San Diego, while thousands are suffering from the effects of the flood.

Go ahead, attack me and all the other pukes that demanded the federal gov't get off their collective asses and do something to help Americans hit by Katrina.

 

[shereads]

Calling Amicus a communist is on a par with calling Stalin a humanitarian.

What did Stalin do to deserve this mean-spirited association with amicus?



Regarding the race issue: I don't think it's fair to say Bush doesn't care about black people; it's poor people he doesn't give a damn about. Black people of his socio-economic class leave New Orleans for the summer like everyone else who has a cottage in the Hamptons.

Regarding jmt's assertion that we are blissfully ignorant about disasters of this nature: I've lived through more hurricanes than George W. Bush can spell. I've never witnessed one until last week that had been predicted with astonishing accuracy as one of the most likely disaster scenarios for a major American city, in materials that were not only available to FEMA and Homeland Security but paid for under their budget.

That is the crux of the argument that this was handled with inexcusable negligence, from Bush's slashing of funding for the levee system to the FEMA director's admission that he was "surprised" by the scope of the damage.

If this had happened in the Washington, D.C. bedroom communities that dot northern Virginia - or in the Florida Keys, where housing costs and upscale tourism define the population as predominantly middle-and-upper-class - would we have watched in horror for five days while survivors of the storm died awaiting a bottle of water? Maybe. Would the president have attended a fund-raising dinner the night of a storm that threatened to destroy those communities? Puh-leeze.

As for anyone "making political hay" from a disaster: one is said to make hay from a situation when one has something to gain by it. Politicians and their minions make political hay. Voters can talk till we're blue, but don't make hay because we have nothing to gain. Not even the faint hope that someone who deserves it will be held accountable. Not by this Congress. Not by this President.

Expressing our disgust is the only satisfaction we are likely to have other than helping the victims to the extent that we can. I have a feeling the sub-humans in this thread have done at least as much as amicus in that regard.

 

[oggbashan]

Could it happen in the UK?

There is an article in todays 'The Times' that suggests that we in the UK are being too complacent about the sociological impact of Katrina and suggesting smugly that it couldn't happen here.

They continue to say that of course it could. A natural disaster can happen anywhere. A large part of the East End of London could be flooded if the Thames Barrier was overtopped or the sea walls downstream from it were to fail.

If that happened it would be the poor and the ethnic communities that would suffer most. We could be faced by the sight of people from, or descended from, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and the Caribbean suffering disproportionately. Those who do not have the resources to evacuate the threatened areas would be the majority of the victims. Our emergency services might be equally incompetent if faced with half a million homeless people.

Things went wrong with the evacuation of Los Angeles. How much was chaos; how much was underfunding and how much was incompetence will be argued about for years to come. The US does not have a monopoly on chaos, lack of funding and incompetence. We Brits could probably do just as badly faced with a similar event.

We should all learn from Katrina. We should all prepare for a disaster and plan what we would do. Unfortunately memories fade with time. Next year many countries will be better prepared for disaster. In 10 years time? Funding will be cut, resources removed, lessons forgotten in the interest of saving public money.

Og

 

[shereads]

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/3899/poorjudgement024mp.jpg
San Diego - August 30, 2005

"Mr. Nero, that fire in Rome isn't looking good at all. You might want to turn on CNN."

 

[Extreme Bohunk]

There is an article in todays 'The Times' that suggests that we in the UK are being too complacent about the sociological impact of Katrina and suggesting smugly that it couldn't happen here.

They continue to say that of course it could. A natural disaster can happen anywhere. A large part of the East End of London could be flooded if the Thames Barrier was overtopped or the sea walls downstream from it were to fail.

If that happened it would be the poor and the ethnic communities that would suffer most. We could be faced by the sight of people from, or descended from, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and the Caribbean suffering disproportionately. Those who do not have the resources to evacuate the threatened areas would be the majority of the victims. Our emergency services might be equally incompetent if faced with half a million homeless people.

Things went wrong with the evacuation of Los Angeles. How much was chaos; how much was underfunding and how much was incompetence will be argued about for years to come. The US does not have a monopoly on chaos, lack of funding and incompetence. We Brits could probably do just as badly faced with a similar event.

We should all learn from Katrina. We should all prepare for a disaster and plan what we would do. Unfortunately memories fade with time. Next year many countries will be better prepared for disaster. In 10 years time? Funding will be cut, resources removed, lessons forgotten in the interest of saving public money.

Og

Unfortunately, 'What we should do' too oftens turns into
'What we should have done'.
The events of the past week are a painful example of that.

(not to nitpick, but did you mean the evacuation of New Orleans, instead of Los Angeles?)

 

[shereads]

(not to nitpick, but did you mean the evacuation of New Orleans, instead of Los Angeles?)

Og is either thinking ahead or he recently watched "Volcano" on cable. Me too. I love this bit:

2 guys are loading "The Garden of Earthly Delights" onto a truck during the evacuation of Beverly Hills.

First Guy: "Man, this Hieronymus Bosch is heavy."

Second Guy: "I know what you mean. His major theme is that there are consequences when mankind pursues the pleasures of the flesh in defiance of God's will."

First Guy, wiping brow with his sleeve: "No. It's just heavy."

 

[sophia jane]

FEMA response

FEMA director waited to seek Homeland help
Documents: Brown waited five hours after storm’s landfall to get agency aid
Michael Brown and Michael Chertoff
Jim Watson / AFP - Getty Images file
Federal Emergency Management Agency chief Michael Brown briefs Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff on Sept. 2 in Mobile, Ala., before touring the devastation left by Hurricane Katrina. Brown is under fire for his agency's response to the disaster.


WASHINGTON - The government’s disaster chief waited until hours after Hurricane Katrina had already struck the Gulf Coast before asking his boss to dispatch 1,000 Homeland Security workers to support rescuers in the region — and gave them two days to arrive, according to internal documents.

Michael Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, sought the approval from Homeland Security Secretary Mike Chertoff roughly five hours after Katrina made landfall on Aug. 29. Brown said that among duties of these employees was to “convey a positive image” about the government’s response for victims.

Before then, FEMA had positioned smaller rescue and communications teams across the Gulf Coast. But officials acknowledged Tuesday the first department-wide appeal for help came only as the storm raged.
Story continues below ↓ advertisement

Brown’s memo to Chertoff described Katrina as “this near catastrophic event” but otherwise lacked any urgent language. The memo politely ended, “Thank you for your consideration in helping us to meet our responsibilities.”

The initial responses of the government and Brown came under escalating criticism as the breadth of destruction and death grew. President Bush and Congress on Tuesday pledged separate investigations into the federal response to Katrina. “Governments at all levels failed,” said Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine.

Homeland Security spokesman Russ Knocke said Brown had positioned front-line rescue teams and Coast Guard helicopters before the storm. Brown’s memo on Aug. 29 aimed to assemble the necessary federal work force to support the rescues, establish communications and coordinate with victims and community groups, Knocke said.

Instead of rescuing people or recovering bodies, these employees would focus on helping victims find the help they needed, he said.

“There will be plenty of time to assess what worked and what didn’t work,” Knocke said. “Clearly there will be time for blame to be assigned and to learn from some of the successful efforts.”

‘A positive image’
Brown’s memo told employees that among their duties, they would be expected to “convey a positive image of disaster operations to government officials, community organizations and the general public.”

“FEMA response and recovery operations are a top priority of the department and as we know, one of yours,” Brown wrote Chertoff. He proposed sending 1,000 Homeland Security Department employees within 48 hours and 2,000 within seven days.

Knocke said the 48-hour period suggested for the Homeland employees was to ensure they had adequate training. “They were training to help the life-savers,” Knocke said.

Employees required a supervisor’s approval and at least 24 hours of disaster training in Maryland, Florida or Georgia. “You must be physically able to work in a disaster area without refrigeration for medications and have the ability to work in the outdoors all day,” Brown wrote.

The same day Brown wrote Chertoff, Brown also urged local fire and rescue departments outside Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi not to send trucks or emergency workers into disaster areas without an explicit request for help from state or local governments. Brown said it was vital to coordinate fire and rescue efforts.

Sen. Barbara Mikulski, D-Md., said Tuesday that Brown should step down.

After a senators-only briefing by Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff and other Cabinet members, Sen. Charles E. Schumer said lawmakers weren’t getting their questions answered.

‘A big, big problem’
“What people up there want to know, Democrats and Republicans, is what is the challenge ahead, how are you handling that and what did you do wrong in the past,” said Schumer, D-N.Y.

Sen. Ted Stevens, R-Alaska, said the administration is “getting a bad rap” for the emergency response. “People have to understand this is a big, big problem.”

Meanwhile, the airline industry said the government’s request for help evacuating storm victims didn’t come until late Thursday afternoon. The president of the Air Transport Association, James May, said the Homeland Security Department called then to ask if the group could participate in an airlift for refugees.

 

[Extreme Bohunk]

Og is either thinking ahead or he recently watched "Volcano" on cable. Me too. I love this bit:

2 guys are loading "The Garden of Earthly Delights" onto a truck during the evacuation of Beverly Hills.

First Guy: "Man, this Hieronymus Bosch is heavy."

Second Guy: "I know what you mean. His major theme is that there are consequences when mankind pursues the pleasures of the flesh in defiance of God's will."

First Guy, wiping brow with his sleeve: "No. It's just heavy."

*blushing furiously*
I own that tape.
We now join our program, already in progress.....

 

[rgraham666]

“convey a positive image of disaster operations to government officials, community organizations and the general public.”

There we have it, the modern state of affairs.

The people we've allowed into positions of responsibility are no longer concerned with doing things, but with the appearance of doing things.

The first question that always pops into their minds, "How can I look good?"

 

[sophia jane]

DeLay points to local officials
House cancels hearings; joint panel to look at Katrina response

Wednesday, September 7, 2005; Posted: 10:12 a.m. EDT (14:12 GMT)

story.katrinacong.ap.jpg
House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, right, and Speaker Dennis Hastert speak about the response to Hurricane Katrina Tuesday.



WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The House majority leader late Tuesday tried to deflect criticism of the federal response to Hurricane Katrina by saying "the emergency response system was set up to work from the bottom up," then announced a short time later that House hearings examining that response had been canceled.

Rep. Tom DeLay, R-Texas, said House Republican leaders instead want a joint House-Senate panel set up to conduct a "congressional review" of the issue.

Tempers flared Tuesday during a contentious closed-door meeting between House members and Cabinet secretaries in charge of directing Katrina relief efforts. A Republican representative stood up and said, "All of you deserve failing grades. The response was a disaster," CNN was told by lawmakers emerging from the meeting.

But DeLay countered that assessment later in a news conference by saying that the onus for responding to emergencies fell to local officials.

"It's the local officials trying to handle the problem. When they can't handle the problem, they go to the state, and the state does what they can to, and if they need assistance from FEMA and the federal government they ask for it and it's delivered," DeLay said.

He added that Alabama and Mississippi did a much better job of responding quickly than Louisiana. Alabama and Mississippi have Republican governors.

The Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee said Tuesday it has begun an investigation into the government's response to the tragedy. Chairwoman Susan Collins, R-Maine, said she expects public hearings to start next week.

Critics argue that the government took far too long to mobilize aid, causing thousands of storm victims to languish for days in the New Orleans Superdome without food, water and other necessities.

Michael Chertoff, secretary of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), has come under intense criticism for the federal response to Katrina. The hurricane and subsequent flooding have devastated the city of New Orleans.

Chertoff, who is heading the federal response to the storm, argued for days after the disaster that no one foresaw such a combination of events -- even though, in fact, lawmakers, scientists, and reporters had long warned that if a major hurricane hit the city it would be a disaster.

Earlier Tuesday, House leaders met with President Bush.

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi of California told media afterward that she was upset with the Katrina rescue effort and felt that Michael Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), should shoulder much of the blame, and lacked the credentials to do his good job.

"Michael Brown, the head of FEMA, brings nothing to the table for the level of competence and accountability," Pelosi said. "He should not continue in that job unless we want a continuation of the shortcomings that we have had in the response."

In a memo dated August 29 -- the day Katrina made landfall -- Brown asked Chertoff for 1,000 DHS volunteers willing to deploy as soon as possible "for a two-week minimum field assignment" in hurricane-struck states.

The memo was obtained by the media Tuesday.

In it, Brown writes, "We anticipate needing at least 1,000 additional DHS employees within 48 hours and 2,000 within 7 days."

According to Natalie Rule, a spokeswoman for FEMA, the employees were needed to answer phones, do community relations and help set up field hospitals, what she called "non-emergency tasks." They are not first-responders, she said.

"We already had all of our first-responder teams pre-deployed -- 32 teams in all -- who went in and staged in and around the hurricane zone and were ready to go by Sunday. This is deployment that requires that the governor make a request to the federal government," Rule said.

In closing, Brown says in the memo, "Thank you for your consideration in helping us meet our responsibilities in this near catastrophic event." Attached to the memo is a list of requirements for employees heading to the hurricane area, including personal supplies, contact points and physical requirements.

One part of the attachment advises employees to "convey a positive image of disaster operations to government officials, community organizations and the general public."

 

[shereads]

Brown’s memo to Chertoff described Katrina as “this near catastrophic event”

As opposed to a catastrophic event, which would...?

occur when the Super Bowl was needed for an important game?

flood 90% of a large city instead of only 80%?

Knocke said the 48-hour period suggested for the Homeland employees was to ensure they had adequate training.

"Once again, that's something you could have brought up YESTERDAY!"

~ some Adam Sandler movie




Un-freaking-believable.

 

[rgraham666]

(odd electronic noise) So it begins.

This will only make sense to Babylon 5 fans.

Another scene comes to mind.

Emperor Turhan: How does it end?

Kosh: (odd electronic noise) In fire.

 

[sophia jane]

"We already had all of our first-responder teams pre-deployed -- 32 teams in all -- who went in and staged in and around the hurricane zone and were ready to go by Sunday. This is deployment that requires that the governor make a request to the federal government," Rule said.

This is what got me. There were 32 first responder teams ready to go by Sunday. How many people were on the teams? 2?

 

[LadyJeanne]

"Once again, that's something you could have brought up YESTERDAY!"

~ some Adam Sandler movie

The Wedding Singer.

 

[Alex756]

This is what got me. There were 32 first responder teams ready to go by Sunday. How many people were on the teams? 2?

was that 32 teams for the entire huricane area or for NO, I assume for the entire huricane area, which is the size of the UK. 32 teams in an area that size, even assuming they were full teams, is a small drop in the bucket.

-Alex

 

[Extreme Bohunk]

This is what got me. There were 32 first responder teams ready to go by Sunday. How many people were on the teams? 2?

from FEMA site:
Task forces include 70 specialists along with canine members, and are divided into six major functional elements: search, rescue, medical, hazmat, logistics and planning. Each task force is divided into two 35-member teams, which allows for the rotation and relief of personnel for 24 hour search and rescue operations. FEMA establishes policy and coordinates the 28 US&R teams across the country.

 

[oggbashan]

Unfortunately, 'What we should do' too oftens turns into
'What we should have done'.
The events of the past week are a painful example of that.

(not to nitpick, but did you mean the evacuation of New Orleans, instead of Los Angeles?)

Yes to the latter. I hope I'm not a prophet.

We are always prepared for the last disaster (or war) and not for the next one. I was thinking about FEMA and the UK equivalent preparing for a flood and being useless in an earthquake. Hence my slip replacing New Orleans by Los Angeles. I was thinking that San Francisco expects the big quake and Los Angeles doesn't.

Og

 

[Extreme Bohunk]

Yes to the latter. I hope I'm not a prophet.

We are always prepared for the last disaster (or war) and not for the next one. I was thinking about FEMA and the UK equivalent preparing for a flood and being useless in an earthquake. Hence my slip replacing New Orleans by Los Angeles. I was thinking that San Francisco expects the big quake and Los Angeles doesn't.

Og

I keep having to correct myself when I see the abbr. LA for Louisiana.

 

[NoJo]

Soundbite from news.bbc.co.uk:

"I remember reading that civilisation is only ever three missed meals away from anarchy"

James MacMillan, Glasgow, UK

 

[amicus]

"...Og is either thinking ahead or he recently watched "Volcano" on cable. Me too. I love this bit:

2 guys are loading "The Garden of Earthly Delights" onto a truck during the evacuation of Beverly Hills.

First Guy: "Man, this Hieronymus Bosch is heavy."

Second Guy: "I know what you mean. His major theme is that there are consequences when mankind pursues the pleasures of the flesh in defiance of God's will."
First Guy, wiping brow with his sleeve: "No. It's just heavy." ..."


If I suspected that anyone on this woebegotten site would have picked up on the Hieronymus bit, it would have been Shereads....nicely done...but I liked the gal that played in 7 days, 6 nights with Harrison Ford, can't think of her name at the moment and of course, Tommy Lee Jones....

Anywho...I see the 'usual suspects' are backing and filling as they usually do when caught with their genitals exposed.


Og made some excellent points concerning natural disasters, I would extend his thoughts by reminding all that the Tsunami in Asia that took so many lives, fell out of the news soon after and we still don't know the final death toll (although it can be searched) as a matter of public record and the so called 'news organizations' have very little information on expediture of disaster relief funds or the recovery and rebuilding of that entire area.

There be another storm brewing off Florida, path uncertain; hope it heads elsewhere...


amicus...