Jealousy....bad or convenient?

[James G 5]

Re: Re: Re: We must remember

Well they can try, but they will not succeed! So James what have you been up to?

Working so much that I've managed to land myself with multiple respiratory infections, forcing me to take some time off
So of course I am catching up on Lit

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: Re: We must remember

Working so much that I've managed to land myself with multiple respiratory infections, forcing me to take some time off
So of course I am catching up on Lit

I trust your subbies are taking good care of you!

 

[James G 5]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: We must remember

I trust your subbies are taking good care of you!

No subbie right now
And Pouty is 2 hours away
So I suffer alone *dramatic sigh*

 

[s'lara]

i agree. Jealousy does not HAVE to be a part of all of us. However, more often than not, it does rear its ugly head.

My point is this - Jealousy does exist. There is no cure all for it as James admitted. Even in little bits it does exist. So does envy. i would love to be jealous/envy free. But i am not. All i can do is acknowledge it when it does happen and ask myself what i am really jealous about and whether it is worth it. Most times, i found there was no reason to be jealous in the first place. i am less inclined to venture down that road as i have been there before and it leads nowhere.

i guess it comes down to maturation of perspective over time. Never one to be overtly jealous, i do not deny it has happened to me on more than one occasion; on the giving and receiving end. i just had a hard time with the viewpoint that jealousy never recurs if it is acknowledged and discussed.

So to sum up - No, i don't believe all people are jealous and cannot learn to overcome these feelings. i do know jealousy exists and will continue to exist despite those who have managed to conquer these feelings. i don't condone jealousy, i just accept it will happen every now and again and make my way towards letting it peter out as i grow.

Good going to those who have successfully removed all jealous or envious feelings from their emotional plate. Without sarcasm, i think it an admirable and accomplished feat. i hope to be there myself eventually.

lara

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: I can only speak for me...

In every case where i have experienced jealousy...it was the doing of the other person and not my own. By nature, i am an honest up-front person. I do not believe that jealousy should ever enter into a good relationship. HOWEVER, the moment the person starts to hide things, or blow you off or act as if what you feel is no longer important...well then that is when (for me) jealousy rears it's ugly head.

In an open BDSM relationship with all rules laid out for everyone to understand (or even in a *nilla* relationship) there should be no reason for hiding anything. Personally, people can scream about the Dom/me doing what is best for THEM but if they are adult enough to claim that title than they should be adult enough to be honest.

There should not ever be a statement of *it's my way or go* unless it was discussed before the relationship was entered into.
No matter how people claim to be above all of that...being hurt and abused (mentally or emotionally) will cause a normal person to fly into a jealous fit at the drop of a hat. If Honesty and Integrity are truly a part of the equation than there is never a need for that particular emotion. It is only when the other person lies or makes lateral decisions that affect all involved...that i feel any sort of jealousy.


JMHO

brat princess

Love this post as it is close to how I feel. Perhaps the only other thing I would add while still only half awake is, evenm though it may have been discussed before hand, it is a fact we often find things we thought we could or could not accept, we find are the opposite to our expectations in reality. This can also be dependent on the particular situation.

C

 

[catalina_francisco]

Jealousy is LEARNED
It can be UNlearned
By most people, anyway
Does that mean that you'll never have bits of it? Probably not, it's too ingrained in most people
But it CAN be dealt with
I will, for the umpteenth time, urge folsk to read "The Ethical Slut" which has a HUGE great section on it
Folks, love is NOT about ownership or possesion
BDSM maybe, but not love
And even within the ownership context ot BDSM it can be dealt with

For simplification of the issue I will refer to jealousy in committed and/or long term relationships and state clearly it is only my opinion, though one I find shared by more than a few. While I agree love is not about ownership (outside particular relationships in BDSM that is), I would dare to suggest jealousy is not always purely motivated by a possessiveness as such, though I also acknowledge it can be in some circumstances. I think it is a simplification of a truely innate human emotion, and in part attempts to minimise the reality of various depths of love.

I think, IMHO, there has been an effort to over intellectualise human behaviour to a point where we are expected to behave like perfect automatons where any show of emotions which go outside the normal, narrow range of acceptable blandness (my words and feelings I admit), we are wrong and bad as people who are deficient in some way and need to 'fix' ourselves.

Whatever happened to the type love where you knew you could trust, expect reciprocal commitment and honesty, and go to a depth where your partner truly fulfils you in the ways you need? For me, and yes I know it is not for everyone, you go through a period in your life where you experiment, play, explore, and as such define who you are and what your needs are in a relationship for life or long term if that is what you seek. After that, when you meet your SO and make that choice from your informed position, your genitals and hands do not keep on automatic exploration mode, of course referring to circumstances where it is not an agreed and accepted part of the relationship, without expecting some sort of negative reaction from your partner, expressed or hidden.

Unfortunately the reality seems to be, many people commit to relationships for various reasons which do not include this is the person I can tell anything to, trust my life with, and spend the rest of my life with in bliss. As an addition to the discussion, I was wanting to ask what people think is the underlying motivation for jealousy, what their perceptions are.

Catalina

 

[James G 5]

Unfortunately the reality seems to be, many people commit to relationships for various reasons which do not include this is the person I can tell anything to, trust my life with, and spend the rest of my life with in bliss. As an addition to the discussion, I was wanting to ask what people think is the underlying motivation for jealousy, what their perceptions are.

Catalina

I think the sort of relationship you describe is sadly unrealistic and unworkable for most people *shrug*
And it's not a matter of overintellectualizing things and telling people they're different or broken
It's a matter of applying reason to unhealthy LEARNED things that people have been taught about the way they live, which is more what jealousy is about than it is a natural human emotion
I think most of the underlying motivation, when it comes to relationships, is negative and unhealthy programming about what love and relationships mean and a focus on the generally negative and untrue idea of monogamy as being the "right" way
The myths and ideas that have been created to support the idea of monogamy are all sorts of unhealthy and create thinsg lke jealousy and feelings of unfulfilment

IMHO, of course

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: I can only speak for me...

Love this post as it is close to how I feel. Perhaps the only other thing I would add while still only half awake is, evenm though it may have been discussed before hand, it is a fact we often find things we thought we could or could not accept, we find are the opposite to our expectations in reality. This can also be dependent on the particular situation.

C

Not to be mean, but I notice this sentiment is always stated by femsubs. It is not that I am knocking it, it just seems that women have these kinds of thoughts and needs.

I have yet to hear this type sentiment come from a male sub. I am not saying that all male subs do not think in these terms, but I am saying that not one has come forward and expressed it here or on other BBs that I have read.

Perhaps they do not feel like putting their thoughts up for scutiny.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think the sort of relationship you describe is sadly unrealistic and unworkable for most people *shrug*
And it's not a matter of overintellectualizing things and telling people they're different or broken
It's a matter of applying reason to unhealthy LEARNED things that people have been taught about the way they live, which is more what jealousy is about than it is a natural human emotion
I think most of the underlying motivation, when it comes to relationships, is negative and unhealthy programming about what love and relationships mean and a focus on the generally negative and untrue idea of monogamy as being the "right" way
The myths and ideas that have been created to support the idea of monogamy are all sorts of unhealthy and create thinsg lke jealousy and feelings of unfulfilment

IMHO, of course

Boy am I glad I am living such a rare existance!! But yes, I agree it is rare, but not so much because it is unrealistic, as much as people have learned to accept less, and I know it is definately workable though it might take a bit mor effort than opting for less restrictive relationships...and please note, in my post I was tlking about those where there was not mutual consent, or even discussion about an open relationship, but more so those which operate in secret.

As for jealousy being a learned behaviour, I have seen babies of only a few weeks of age, still laying in their cribs, display jealousy...where did they learn i, in the womb?...and at the moment, we are dog sitting Master's dog (now some may not think dogs are human, but I think most exhibit much the same emotions), who now lives with his mother, and she is very jealous...and a slimeball. She initially loved me to death when we visited, but any sign of kissing and/or touching between us and she would use all of her 8 inch stature to push us apart and wrap herself around his neck while watching me with a smug expression. Now she is living here she is still using every opportunity to keep us physially separated, but more so sliming up to me in what I perceive to be an effort to disarm the competition. Now who taught such an innocent babe how to be so jealous?

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: Re: Re: I can only speak for me...

Not to be mean, but I notice this sentiment is always stated by femsubs. It is not that I am knocking it, it just seems that women have these kinds of thoughts and needs.

I have yet to hear this type sentiment come from a male sub. I am not saying that all male subs do not think in these terms, but I am saying that not one has come forward and expressed it here or on other BBs that I have read.

Perhaps they do not feel like putting their thoughts up for scutiny.

Or maybe it comes back to men not often feeling as comfortable about expressing those feelings. Some do, but not many. And no I didn't think you mean!!

C

 

[James G 5]

Re: Re: Re: I can only speak for me...

Not to be mean, but I notice this sentiment is always stated by femsubs. It is not that I am knocking it, it just seems that women have these kinds of thoughts and needs.

I have yet to hear this type sentiment come from a male sub. I am not saying that all male subs do not think in these terms, but I am saying that not one has come forward and expressed it here or on other BBs that I have read.

Perhaps they do not feel like putting their thoughts up for scutiny.

EB, I have said before on this that I think it has to do with the differences between men & women on monogamy
Men moreso than women feel less attached to the idea even in the "normal" world
Certainly a man who has stepped so far outside the bounds of "normal" to become a male sub would tend to have even less of a problem

Dan Savage wrote a GREAT column on this a while back in Savage Love that I wish I could find to quote *sigh*

 

[James G 5]

As for jealousy being a learned behaviour, I have seen babies of only a few weeks of age, still laying in their cribs, display jealousy...where did they learn i, in the womb?...and at the moment, we are dog sitting Master's dog (now some may not think dogs are human, but I think most exhibit much the same emotions), who now lives with his mother, and she is very jealous...and a slimeball. She initially loved me to death when we visited, but any sign of kissing and/or touching between us and she would use all of her 8 inch stature to push us apart and wrap herself around his neck while watching me with a smug expression. Now she is living here she is still using every opportunity to keep us physially separated, but more so sliming up to me in what I perceive to be an effort to disarm the competition. Now who taught such an innocent babe how to be so jealous?

Catalina

BIG difference in an unreasoning (IE small child or animal) being's demand for attention, often (especially in the case of the child) NEEDED attention, and a reasoning adult being so needy that he or she can't give a little attention up
The trained responses and ideas that people are taught to attach to such needs and the ideas propgated about "finding someone to complete you" or "having a soul mate" or any other claptrap that indicates one cannot be complete without someone else lead to all sorts of ugliness
A reasoning ADULT should be able to address his or her needs without relying on another, a great partner is icing on the cake

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I can only speak for me...

EB, I have said before on this that I think it has to do with the differences between men & women on monogamy
Men moreso than women feel less attached to the idea even in the "normal" world
Certainly a man who has stepped so far outside the bounds of "normal" to become a male sub would tend to have even less of a problem

Dan Savage wrote a GREAT column on this a while back in Savage Love that I wish I could find to quote *sigh*

I do not think that it is the fact that women need monogamy or feel positive toward it as much as since there are more women than men in the world, and competition is so stiff, that by their sheer numbers women are taught to value being under the so called protection of one man.

I personally have rejected that argument years ago, and though I do not look down on anyone who thinks that marrying some man and living happily ever after is a primary goal, I try to educate young women to exercise their right to the options available. Many women have fought and died to provide choices for women today.

If it is your choice, make it an informed choice, not a foregone conclusion. Especially since 8 out of 10 marriages end in divorce, it is wise to have choices.

 

[James G 5]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I can only speak for me...

I do not think that it is the fact that women need monogamy or feel positive toward it as much as since there are more women than men in the world, and competition is so stiff, that by their sheer numbers women are taught to value being under the so called protection of one man.

I think it's more the overall societal conditioning women are given that monogamy is the only "right" way
Vis a vis things like the slut/stud dichotomy
Women DON'T need it but they're sure taught to THINK they do
And I agree with the rest of what you said, i just wanted to clarify what I meant

 

[catalina_francisco]

Gee James, I never realised I needed completing....I have always been able to complete myself and deal with issues most never even face...and survive. And as an aside, I did set out to find the Master for me, but in so doing stated I would stay single if I did not find someone who was the universe to me as I didn't need them just as an added adornment to my life. I was happy, but I knew I could be happier, and I am...and yes it is the icing on the cake, though I try not to eat my cake and have it too.

C

 

[Ebonyfire]

Gee James, I never realised I needed completing....I have always been able to complete myself and deal with issues most never even face...and survive.

But many women do not feel as you do. I hear it all the time Catalina.

 

[James G 5]

Gee James, I never realised I needed completing....I have always been able to complete myself and deal with issues most never even face...and survive. And as an aside, I did set out to find the Master for me, but in so doing stated I would stay single if I did not find someone who was the universe to me as I didn't need them just as an added adornment to my life. I was happy, but I knew I could be happier, and I am...and yes it is the icing on the cake, though I try not to eat my cake and have it too.

C

I didn't say you, dear, I was responding to your question with a general answer about where I feel much of the foundation of jealousy lies
Obviously it's a complicated issues without one easy answer but mine hit one at least one of the major causes
I bever said I was talking about YOU tho
Precision of words

 

[James G 5]

But many women do not feel as you do. I hear it all the time Catalina.

Yup

 

[catalina_francisco]

But many women do not feel as you do. I hear it all the time Catalina.

LOL...Geez Eb and James, if you two start agreeing with Master that I am not like many women, he might begin to think he can finally convince me I am special and unique.....perish the thought!!!

Catalina

 

[Ebonyfire]

LOL...Geez Eb and James, if you two start agreeing with Master that I am not like many women, he might begin to think he can finally convince me I am special and unique.....perish the thought!!!

Catalina

All of us are special and unique. Some of us are just not aware of it.

 

[catalina_francisco]

All of us are special and unique. Some of us are just not aware of it.

Yes, this is true. As Master has noticed though, I tend to apply that notion to everyone and everything, but not myself.....I am just me. We are working on it. He sure has a lot of tenacity and patience.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Any new thoughts?

 

[echoes_s]

I just left a two and a half month relationship...Master/slave and myself, sub...

my very first endeavor into BDSM and one i at first found challenging, beautiful, overwhelming at points, at home with and embraced within.
While in this relationship i wasnt allowed to seek counsel or talk to anyone else about this relationship, so i disappeared from these boards as it was grounds for dismissal.
At first there was clear and honest communication and trust/foundation built between Sir and myself, then His slave and myself.
Then Sir withdrew and His slave became more dominant, telling me not to contact Him, losing this direct communication with Him.
He would send me emails assigning tasks for me to complete, some i found challenging but completed them at the very least, putting everything and more that i could into them, He did not see these tasks completed, but heard them through His slave and by His slave's opinion, even though she also did not see them done, but judged them by what she thought. she started adding her own tasks, which really became too challenging i am ashamed to admit...to please them both was a bit overwhelming mentally and physically.
...and through it all, she kept saying she didn't know how i could do this, knowing there was no future in this for me. i told her this hurt, that i wasnt looking for more and accepted this, but she kept repeating it and asked me what kind of mother i was, bringing my children into my self on this matter, when they had nothing to do with it and were to be left out. This point made clear from the very beginning...
jealousy hurts, i guess two people at least, in this relationship, for it begins to destroy any trust that was formed. i now wonder what information was passed on to Sir, but it is too late.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Sorry to hear you have been through so much echoes_s. I hope you are coping OK, and can at least come away from the experience with some positive feelings. It sounds, though it was a trying time for you, you have learned some things about what you do and don't want in the future. It appears IMO as if the slave had jealousy issues which needed dealing with, or you were the uninformed tool in a cruel game they liked to play.

Did they ever tell you why you were not allowed on Lit anymore? It does come across as a measure to ensure you were made more vulnerable and unable to seek outside opinions and thoughts on what you were being asked to do. It sounds as if you have been left with so many unanswered questions and unfulfilled hopes which can be very hurtful. I wish you well with moving forward from this moment in time.

Catalina

 

[echoes_s]

Thank you Catalina, i do have some very beautiful memories and feelings from this experience to hold dear and remember

Yes, i am very confused, wondering what happened, what was happening etc among many other feelings but i will sort through what i can. There will be many questions that will be also left unanswered unfortunately.

He did not want me consulting not just anyone on Lit, but anyone involved in and/or pertaining to BDSM as He said it would interfer with my training and i had no requirement to ask anyone else questions but Him and His slave. If i required any answers or explanations, they would provide them.