I've got a legal question for you

[DVS]

This question involves sex changes. Actually, the legalities of it.

I know this person, she is now considered a he, legally. Harley changed his driver's license, Social security I.D. and birth certificate to all reflect the fact that he's now a male.

He recently went to Las Vegas and got married, too. He hasn't yet had the opperation, but it is planned and he's taking male hormones.

All of that is well and good. But, like I said, this is a legal question. Harley said it was easy to make the change in the legal system. All he needed was the necessary forms.

What I'm wondering is and Harley didn't know the answer...is there any way for someone to know you've had a sex change, by checking your legal papers?

I mean, things like that are suppose to be considered private, but let me put out a possible sceneario for you, just for legal reasons. This has nothing to do with Harley, but the thought did occur to me, after he told me changing the legal documents was so easy.

Say you were to kill someone and the police decided the killer had to be a woman. Maybe because of what witnesses saw, or where the attack happened, or whatever. Anyway, that pretty much would cut out the need to look for a male suspect, in the eyes of the police.

Maybe you are this female, and you did kill this person. But, you knew the legal system and decided to change your identity to cover the crime. You decided to become a man.

If all of the documents are considered personal and private, and if you are now considered to be a man, in the eyes of all legal systems, is there any way for the police to check these newly aquired documents to see if you used to be a woman?

Harley said he didn't see anything different on the face of the documents themselves. They all looked the same. No marks that would bring someone's attention to the fact that he was recently seen as a man, in the eyes of the courts.

What I'm thinking though, that there is something somewhere that points to the fact that he has recently changes sexes for just this posibility. If not, how could police, FBI, Homeland Security, etc., know they need to check such a possibilty.

OK, I"m not saying this would be something they would do on a case, if the couple happened to be in the lifestlye. I understand that sceneario. I'm talking about some average Jane that happens to know the system and plots to kill someone and get away with it. This would be someone who isn't in the lifestlye, or considered a lesbian, etc. If she was, her sex change might not be as hidden as she wanted.

See what I'm getting at? And, if it is possible to do this, is it also just as possible to, after a period of time, have another legal sex change and go back to being a female, after you've moved to another area of the country, and you start a new life with a new identity.

My mind works this way, folks. Sorry. I just thought I'd ask the question of any legal minds out there. Is there any way the authorities can tell someone has changed their sex, in the system? Or is it all private, as some think it is?

Oh, by the way. No, I'm not planning on killing anyone, nor am I planning on a sex change. I'm perfectly fine with being a male Dom, and actually, hat final cut is just something I would never EVER think about.

Can you say OUCH?!!

 

[catalina_francisco]

LOL, your mind has been in busy!! I have no legal answer, but my feelings are that in this time we are not free of observation and monitoring anywhere, even our banking, so doubt they would leave this area, which for many is so controversial, untraceable and unmarked in some way. It is a sad fact of our times we are no longer free to live privately or without the eyes of big brother documenting our every move and action.

Catalina

 

[laurel-marie]

This question involves sex changes. Actually, the legalities of it.

I know this person, she is now considered a he, legally. Harley changed his driver's license, Social security I.D. and birth certificate to all reflect the fact that he's now a male.

He recently went to Las Vegas and got married, too. He hasn't yet had the opperation, but it is planned and he's taking male hormones.

All of that is well and good. But, like I said, this is a legal question. Harley said it was easy to make the change in the legal system. All he needed was the necessary forms.

What I'm wondering is and Harley didn't know the answer...is there any way for someone to know you've had a sex change, by checking your legal papers?

I mean, things like that are suppose to be considered private, but let me put out a possible sceneario for you, just for legal reasons. This has nothing to do with Harley, but the thought did occur to me, after he told me changing the legal documents was so easy.

Say you were to kill someone and the police decided the killer had to be a woman. Maybe because of what witnesses saw, or where the attack happened, or whatever. Anyway, that pretty much would cut out the need to look for a male suspect, in the eyes of the police.

Maybe you are this female, and you did kill this person. But, you knew the legal system and decided to change your identity to cover the crime. You decided to become a man.

If all of the documents are considered personal and private, and if you are now considered to be a man, in the eyes of all legal systems, is there any way for the police to check these newly aquired documents to see if you used to be a woman?

Harley said he didn't see anything different on the face of the documents themselves. They all looked the same. No marks that would bring someone's attention to the fact that he was recently seen as a man, in the eyes of the courts.

What I'm thinking though, that there is something somewhere that points to the fact that he has recently changes sexes for just this posibility. If not, how could police, FBI, Homeland Security, etc., know they need to check such a possibilty.

OK, I"m not saying this would be something they would do on a case, if the couple happened to be in the lifestlye. I understand that sceneario. I'm talking about some average Jane that happens to know the system and plots to kill someone and get away with it. This would be someone who isn't in the lifestlye, or considered a lesbian, etc. If she was, her sex change might not be as hidden as she wanted.

See what I'm getting at? And, if it is possible to do this, is it also just as possible to, after a period of time, have another legal sex change and go back to being a female, after you've moved to another area of the country, and you start a new life with a new identity.

My mind works this way, folks. Sorry. I just thought I'd ask the question of any legal minds out there. Is there any way the authorities can tell someone has changed their sex, in the system? Or is it all private, as some think it is?

Oh, by the way. No, I'm not planning on killing anyone, nor am I planning on a sex change. I'm perfectly fine with being a male Dom, and actually, hat final cut is just something I would never EVER think about.

Can you say OUCH?!!

I am confused...how did she/he change her/his birth certificate? Did it require a form? If so, then there is your paper trail. If not, then who's to say you cannot change where you were born or to whom? Somewhere there has to be an initial paper saying she/he was a female and is now a male...or so it seems.

 

[YinandYang]

LOL, your mind has been in busy!! I have no legal answer, but my feelings are that in this time we are not free of observation and monitoring anywhere, even our banking, so doubt they would leave this area, which for many is so controversial, untraceable and unmarked in some way. It is a sad fact of our times we are no longer free to live privately or without the eyes of big brother documenting our every move and action.

Catalina

I am with catalina on this one.,...I think they know more about us then they let on

 

[A Desert Rose]

Send this as a PM to lavender... she has all the answers.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Send this as a PM to lavender... she has all the answers.

*duct tapes myself to ADR*

 

[snowy ciara]

3 Things...

1. If you get a sex change in the US, there will be a paper trail. If you get a sex change outside of the US, there will also be one. I asked a former airline employee, and she said that the information, gender, name all that stuff has to be correct. What they do is, send you to your destination with your original passport, and usually the hospital handling your srs will have the paperwork necessary to get the amendment page in your passport. The Dr fills it out, you take it to the consulate and they amend your passport. But they don't actually issue you a new passport; you get an amendment page similar to when you change your name or add a child to your passport. Voilà, paper trail. Then you send your old passport in when you get home and get one showing your correct gender, which again creates a paper trail.

2. In the case of a crime, your DNA is going to show your original gender. So if you're foolish enough to leave anything DNA testable at a crime scene, the mitochondrial DNA (which is the fragment you receive from your mother, I believe.) is going to show your chromosomal pattern and indicate your birth gender. Hormones and such won't affect that.

3. Stefani also knows tons about the legalities involved in srs so I asked her to pop in here too and let us know what she thinks.

grabbing some purple duct tape and joining ADR and KC

 

[svb1972]

Just a minor note on the DNA.. it's the chromosomes passed on from the father.. that determine gender.

 

[FantasiaRealms]

This question involves sex changes. Actually, the legalities of it.

I know this person, she is now considered a he, legally. Harley changed his driver's license, Social security I.D. and birth certificate to all reflect the fact that he's now a male.


If all of the documents are considered personal and private, and if you are now considered to be a man, in the eyes of all legal systems, is there any way for the police to check these newly aquired documents to see if you used to be a woman?

Harley said he didn't see anything different on the face of the documents themselves. They all looked the same. No marks that would bring someone's attention to the fact that he was recently seen as a man, in the eyes of the courts.

What I'm thinking though, that there is something somewhere that points to the fact that he has recently changes sexes for just this posibility. If not, how could police, FBI, Homeland Security, etc., know they need to check such a possibilty.

OK, I"m not saying this would be something they would do on a case, if the couple happened to be in the lifestlye. I understand that sceneario. I'm talking about some average Jane that happens to know the system and plots to kill someone and get away with it. This would be someone who isn't in the lifestlye, or considered a lesbian, etc. If she was, her sex change might not be as hidden as she wanted.

See what I'm getting at? And, if it is possible to do this, is it also just as possible to, after a period of time, have another legal sex change and go back to being a female, after you've moved to another area of the country, and you start a new life with a new identity.

My mind works this way, folks. Sorry. I just thought I'd ask the question of any legal minds out there. Is there any way the authorities can tell someone has changed their sex, in the system? Or is it all private, as some think it is?

Oh, by the way. No, I'm not planning on killing anyone, nor am I planning on a sex change. I'm perfectly fine with being a male Dom, and actually, hat final cut is just something I would never EVER think about.

Can you say OUCH?!!

...First off...do you realise that at this stage of the game...what with GPS (ex:OnStar standard/equipped automobiles, "surgic"/precise warfare,) and even basic household word, and everyday useage of search engines on the web, how such a thread could possibly be targeted for scrutiny by the very institutions of which you are wondering have authority or ability to find things out about people? If you have been born, and it has been recorded...there is already and forever until civilization ceases to exist entirely as we know it, a 'paper trail' for every one of us. It is a scary time to be alive, I think. It is also an amazing time as well.

Just a minor note on the DNA.. it's the chromosomes passed on from the father.. that determine gender.

Mitochondrial Inheritance Explanation (or more than you probably wanted to know about mitochondrial DNA)

In mammals, 99.99% of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is inherited from the mother. This is because the sperm carries its mitochondria around a portion of its tail and has only about 100 mitochondria compared to 100,000 in the oocyte. As the cells develop, more and more of the mtDNA from males is diluted out. Hence less than one part in 104 or 0.01% of the mtDNA is paternal. This means that mutations of mtDNA can be passed from mother to child. It also has implications if one does cloning of mammals with the use of somatic cells. The nuclear DNA would be from the donor cell, but the mtDNA would be from the host cell. This is how Dolly the sheep was cloned.

I just think it is probably impossible to wipe yourself (your former self) literally out of the big picture. If it were all that easy, everyone would be changing what they wanted, whenever they wanted, and no one would ever have to answer for anything they didn't choose to. ~Shrugs~ I suppose that is why we still have a little thing called 'society' in this world. We may not like it. We may not even want to be in it, but no matter our preferences or appearances, no matter in what guise we first arrived at the party, or in which new mask we intend, one day to depart it, we are STILL, once here, part of the big picture. But then that is just my .02 on the issue...

~Fantasia

 

[snowy ciara]

Just a minor note on the DNA.. it's the chromosomes passed on from the father.. that determine gender.

Minor hijack on the minor note....

Please do not put words into my mouth.

I did not say that the mother determines the genetic sex of the child. I am aware of the fact that it is the chromosome from the father that determines the genetic sex of the child.

A genealogist family member told me a few years ago that the analyzing the mitrochondrial DNA in a sample you can determine the genetic sex of the child. I questioned him on this, because it was my understanding from my high school biology class (which didn't go much into genetics anyway) that mitochondrial DNA does not change. He advised me that I was correct in this. However, he also advised me that if you analyze the changes that a DNA fragment went through during the genetic recombination that occurs at conception you can tell if the mother's DNA recombined with an X or a Y chromosome. If the mitochondrial DNA is similar to final product, usually you have a genetic female. Depending on the amount of change, and how the DNA recombined you have a genetic male. He described it as a before and after picture of the person's cellular biology. Basically, you pull out the mitrochondrial DNA and compare it the "regular" DNA, for lack of a better analogy.

Now then, it seems if you have a big enough DNA sample to pull some mitochondrial DNA out and compare and contrast it with the finished product then, chances are. you have enough for chromosome mapping to occur. He then pointed out the cases where you don't have enough of the remains to guess if the person were male or female. They take a small fragment of bone and grind it up and analyze the mitochondrial DNA to try to figure out if the remains were male or female. The process is not 100 percent perfect, but the the odds at that time (3 years ago) were pretty good of an accurate answer as the gender of the remains.

All hairsplitting hijacking aside, if a perpetrator of a crime leaves a large enough sample to get some DNA from it, usually there's is enough left to map the chromosomes anyway. I stand by my original point. If you're careless enough to leave some DNA behind, chances are you're going to give away your genetic sex and the authorities are going to figure out they're looking for someone transgendered in some way.

Welcome to the forums, svb.

 

[Stefani]

3. Stefani also knows tons about the legalities involved in srs so I asked her to pop in here too and let us know what she thinks.

Ciara,

Hey sweetie. Nice of you to think of me. I'm a pre-op TS, but quite honestly I'm not up on all the legalities of the system. I can tell you how to get a sex change... what hoops you have to jump through... but I have only some vague notions about getting your identity changed.

From what I understand it varies from state to state. In my home state of Pennsylvania, I just know that I need to get a lawyer involved. I also know that I need a letter from my surgeon stating that I've gone through the change. Then supposedly the lawyer can get my birth certificate changed.

Supposedly it's not hard getting your driver's license changed - I think you can just do that with a letter from your shrink. But don't quote me on that.

Something else to consider... if someone did actually go through SRS (sexual reassignment surgery), as soon as you've gone into the hospital they take your social security # from you. Your medical history is compiled and kept at some shady institution called the MIB (Medical Information Bureau). Insurance companies tap into it whenever you apply for something like Life or Health Insurance. That way if you had a heart attack last year, and you lied on the application - they'll get the real deal from the MIB, and turn you down. Shades of big brother, eh?

You'd think the recent HIPPA laws that protect your health information privacy would discourage that - but they don't. When you sign an insurance application you're agreeing to allow them look at all your medical records at MIB, plus stick a flash light up your butt, or whatever else they deem necessary to underwrite you.

My point being, as soon as you walk into a hospital, there is most definitely a paper trail.

Hope that helps...

Steffie

 

[bridgeburner]

My science is small, but my criminal brain is always ticking. Before you ever have to even consider whether there's a paper trail to be followed regarding your medical history you have several other obstacles.

1. It takes years to fully undergo a sex change. It's not like a face lift. You can't commit the crime as Jane today and walk out of the hospital next week as Joe. In fact, you'd be far better off just using a disguise.

2. Fingerprints

3. DNA

4. All the countless other legwork associated with crime solving. Eye-witnesses are notoriously unreliable so having someone swear it was a woman, or a black guy or a one-armed man or the neighbor kid next door doesn't shut out any and all other possibilities especially if it's not a random crime and you have motive or proximity.


I like the way your mind turns on this, though. I read a fair amount of crime-oriented fiction and I'm always thinking of how one might mimimize mistakes if one has to go on the lamb -- either because you're framed for murder or have a band of hired killers after you. ;->


-B

 

[Stefani]

1. It takes years to fully undergo a sex change. It's not like a face lift. You can't commit the crime as Jane today and walk out of the hospital next week as Joe. In fact, you'd be far better off just using a disguise.

Probably true.

It takes a minimum of a year to get a sex change or SRS (sexual reassignment surgery). The whole procedure is spelled out in something called the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care.

The first step is to go to a therapist. They'll write you a letter recommending hormones, which you give to your doctor. But you can get around this. I went into a doctor's office dressed as a woman, told him I wanted to get a sex change, and he put me on hormones immediately... without ever once talking to a shrink. It comes down to what you look like. If you look like a truck driver in drag, more than likely the doctor will send you to a shrink. If you look fairly feminine to begin with, the doctor is more likely to just prescribe hormones for you without a shrink's approval.

The next step is something called the the Real Life Test or Real Life Trial (RTL). Basically you have to live as the opposite sex for a full year. Which makes sense. A lot of people find out after a few weeks they can't do it or it's not for them. This sort of weeds out the people who are just doing this out of some sort of fantasy. They find out real quick that it's not so easy to walk the walk, especially when they go into work in a dress and everyone in the office suddenly starts treating them like they're mental.

The next step is to get two letters from two different shrinks recommending you to get SRS. This step can take a couple of visits or years. I went to a shrink 4 years ago, and she was willing to give me my letter on the first visit. She actually told me she didn't know how I could ever live as a man, which I thought was rather bizarre after only meeting me once.

Once you've completed the RLT and got your two letters, you can go to an SRS surgeon and get the operation. Insurance won't pay for it, and the cost can vary from $15,000 in Canada to $25,000 in the U.S. to $4,000 in Thailand.

Most TS's are pretty sore about the whole Harry Benjamin procedure. They feel like it's their body and they should be able to do with it as they please. I actually agree with the current set up. You'd be amazed at how many people decide on Monday they want a sex change, only to change their mind on Tuesday. You'd also be surprised at how many post-op TS's still committ suicide.

About a year ago I met a married "guy" at a party that had the sex change a few years ago. After about a year he decided he hated it and wanted to go back to being a man. But he had a vagina now, and the operation is irreversible. So he was taking male testosterone to appear as masculine as possible. The one i felt most sorry for in that situation was the guy's wife. The poor thing. Amazingly she'd stuck by him through all his changes.

 

[SilkVelvet]

In the UK at present, it is illegal to change a birth certificate or gender on a passport. However this may be changed by EU law.

 

[Volz]

3 Things...
<snip

2. In the case of a crime, your DNA is going to show your original gender. So if you're foolish enough to leave anything DNA testable at a crime scene, the mitochondrial DNA (which is the fragment you receive from your mother, I believe.) is going to show your chromosomal pattern and indicate your birth gender. Hormones and such won't affect that.

<snip>

True, but what I think DVS was trying to ask is this:

If you leave DNA behind that shows you are biologically a female, then law enforcement etc will be looking for a female. What if said female had a sex change? They really wouldn't be looking for 'him' because all DNA found was female.

 

[DVS]

True, but what I think DVS was trying to ask is this:

If you leave DNA behind that shows you are biologically a female, then law enforcement etc will be looking for a female. What if said female had a sex change? They really wouldn't be looking for 'him' because all DNA found was female.

Yes, and I'm not saying this would be a close friend, maybe just an aquaintance. So, the police might never think to even talk to him.

But, I think the government has a document somewhere that shows someone has changed their birth certificate. Legally, a slate can be wiped clean, in some situations, if such a document didn't exist. Of course, if it's a private document, the police would have to get a court order to view them. But, if they were only loosly associated at best...

A perfect crime is one where the killer isn't even being persued, for some reason. So, in this case, maybe because any witnesses or DNA points to the other gender. Sure, the DNA might match, IF they were to check it, but unless this person has been in the system before, there is no record of the DNA, so no connection unless a sample is taken.

Did I just see Angela Landsbury a minute ago?

 

[DVS]

My science is small, but my criminal brain is always ticking. Before you ever have to even consider whether there's a paper trail to be followed regarding your medical history you have several other obstacles.

All of which would be of value, if you
1) stick around after the fact
2) are a close friend or spouse and it would be suspicious to leave
3) or, you're on the list of suspects already, for some reason

1. It takes years to fully undergo a sex change. It's not like a face lift. You can't commit the crime as Jane today and walk out of the hospital next week as Joe. In fact, you'd be far better off just using a disguise.

True, physically speaking. But, my friend Harley hasn't gone through the operation, yet, but is now considered a man, legally. He's had all of his personal documents changed. So, at least in this state, it's possible before the operation.

2. Fingerprints

If you are smart, and take precautions, there won't be fingerpirnts. And, even it there are fingerprints, if you've never been finger printed, they won't say who you are...just like DNA, only if you are considered a suspect and tested. First, you're not a close friend, then leaving the area, and the sex change take any thoughts away.

3. DNA

I've answered that above. Only if you are suspected does any DNA that's found convict you. It could be there for the rest of your life, but if you're never tested by the police for any reason, your DNA won't be in the crime data base to be flagged.

4. All the countless other legwork associated with crime solving. Eye-witnesses are notoriously unreliable so having someone swear it was a woman, or a black guy or a one-armed man or the neighbor kid next door doesn't shut out any and all other possibilities especially if it's not a random crime and you have motive or proximity.

Motive, yes, but maybe only the vicitm and murderer know of the motive. That could be one reason for the murder, too. Keeping the subject silent, for some reason. If the victim was smart, they either told someone else, or made a record of it on paper. But, if not, no paper trail and no motive that's known.

I like the way your mind turns on this, though. I read a fair amount of crime-oriented fiction and I'm always thinking of how one might mimimize mistakes if one has to go on the lamb -- either because you're framed for murder or have a band of hired killers after you. ;-> -B

Sure, it needs help, but all I'm trying to point out is the obvious, more than likely. Even if we think our legal papers are private, and I'm sure if someone was to ask, they would be told they are. Still, there is some way of knowing someone changed their gender, legally. There are criminals who have tried to change their identity by burning or sandpapering their fingerprints. Pastic surgery has been tried. A failry long list of things has been tried.

But, none were desperate enough to get a sex change. It's just something to think about.

 

[snowy ciara]

True, but what I think DVS was trying to ask is this:

If you leave DNA behind that shows you are biologically a female, then law enforcement etc will be looking for a female. What if said female had a sex change? They really wouldn't be looking for 'him' because all DNA found was female.

No, they would not be looking for a male before the DNA was found and tested. He said:

Say you were to kill someone and the police decided the killer had to be a woman. Maybe because of what witnesses saw, or where the attack happened, or whatever. Anyway, that pretty much would cut out the need to look for a male suspect, in the eyes of the police.

So the eyewitnesses or what have you say "female" and the DNA says "genetic male" so the cops now know there is some sort of discrepency with the percieved gender of the perpetrator.

 

[DVS]

No, they would not be looking for a male before the DNA was found and tested. He said:




So the eyewitnesses or what have you say "female" and the DNA says "genetic male" so the cops now know there is some sort of discrepency with the percieved gender of the perpetrator.

True, but you're assuming DNA is found. Yes, if there is a scuffle, or personal contact in the commission of the crime, there is very likely to be DNA. Hair samples, skin under the victim's fingernalis, and perhaps blood. But, if there is no direct interation? Only visual accounts who said it was a woman?

This thread has gone farther than I intended, actually testing the validity of a mythical crime, of sorts. Not that I mind, as that can be interesting, in itself. My original question was just to find if someone had legal information on what is kept, when someone changes their gender. So, if nothing is kept (and I seriously doubt that), our discussion would continue to be "if" there was DNA found. Or, suppose the DNA evidence was tampered with or somehow infected or destroyed. That is a possiblity, too.

But, if such a crime was committed, after the trail of looking for women suspects started going cold, I would suppose a creative detective would think to look at the less than normal ways someone would try to avoid being found out. I'd hope they investigate the usual methods within normal procedure.

So, if there are records kept, they would surely show local requests filed for a legal name change, sex change etc. They'd get court orders, talk to the doctors, and investigate possible motives, if any.

But, take out different possible "helpers" in a crime investigation, such as DNA markers and you need to go deeper to find your man...er...woman.

 

[bridgeburner]

DVS,

It's an interesting theory to toy with, but you're going pretty far to dictate all the other parts of such a case that must be in place before suspicion rests solely on perceived gender.


-B

 

[snowy ciara]

Hmmm. Well, my experience with local law enforcement here has reminded me more of Officer Obie from Alice's Restaurant than Law and Order, so if there's no DNA left carelessly lying about, then it's gonna be a cold case file. They just don't have the creativity to look at it from another angle.

 

[DVS]

DVS,

It's an interesting theory to toy with, but you're going pretty far to dictate all the other parts of such a case that must be in place before suspicion rests solely on perceived gender.


-B

Well, I'm only putting possibilities out there. Sure, if you have DNA, the story then has a path, and the police know they are looking for a specific gender. And, it is possible for someone to be killed without leaving any DNA and it is also possible not to be seen by someone else, in the act.

There are cold cases in every city, where officers spend their time, when they have any to spend. Sometimes all there is to show a murder has been committed is the presence of a body.

Sometimes all there is to go on is the absence of someone, noticed only by their family. They never found Jimmy Hoffa's body, and because he hasn't been seen, alive nor dead, it's considered he was murdered by the mob. Last I heard, his body is thought to be in the concrete foundation of some sports stadium.

There is one case in my area called "Precious Doe." All they have found is a young girl's skull. Through forensics, they have a strong idea it was an Afro-American girl of about four years in age, but all leads have gone cold. Although this was a very high profile case, and it was even on the "America's Most Wanted" TV show, nothing more than the skull has ever materialized. Even with a reward offered, nobody has come forward.

I must add, there has recently been news of someone coming forward with information that the mother could be living in Oklahoma. This information also involves DNA in the form of a hair sample. Police are in Oklahoma as I speak, so we will see if this turns up anything new.

Even with the presence of DNA, police are sometimes baffled. In Wichita, the BTK killer that has been haunting that city for years ended up giving police clues to help them find him. They said he wanted to be caught, and was slowly giving them more and more leads to find him. He even gave them a cryptic letter that had parts of his street address in it.

Also in my area was the John Robinson case where he picked women who were not known well, in this area because they were looking for a new start in life. He coaxed them into moving here with the hopes of a job and a new life, only to eventually kill them and stuff their bodies in 55 gallon barrels. Then, only years later were these barrels finally found. Some were buried on his property and some in storage bins in a local self-storage place.

Sure, these women's relatives were missing them, but he had typed a letter for each, telling them not to worry, they were "OK" and doing fine. It is thought he had each sign a blank sheet of paper, and typed the letter after, or signed for them, after he had killed them.

One 21 year old he killed had a baby with her. He forged adoption papers and sold the baby to his brother and sister in law. Nobody was the wiser, until he was finally caught. That baby is now a teenager and knows what happened to her mother, at the hands of the man she has always known as her uncle.

Another case in this area has recently brought the wife of a murdered husband back and a jury just found her guilty of murder last week, after more than ten years. In the beginning, she said she was hit and was knocked out when two masked men broke into their bedroom, only to wake up later and find her husband dead.

She was living very well, in another state, married with a couple of kids, and was probably thinking she had committed the perfect crime. But, police never gave up in that case, and finally she was brought back to stand trial. There was no DNA to convict her.

I think what finally got her was a determined police department that never believed her story and the fact that there is no statute of limitations on murder. Her accomplice goes on trial soon, too. He was a senior in college, at the time and now also has a family and kids.

So, I don't think I've limited the situation that much. I do think it is easy for most people to assume the bad guy will always be caught and that's that. I tend to think the reality is only the stupid, or the sloppy killers get caught, because they didn't think the process through. It's scary to say, but I think it's possible to get away with murder, if you plan it out. What's even scarier? The perfect murder is one we may never hear about, because there is no body to be found.