It's shit like this which makes me "proud" of my Indian heritage.

[LaRascasse]

Apologies for spoiling your day. If you want it unspoilt, don't read further

I realize this news is a little old (around 1 week), but seeing as it hasn't been mentioned here, thought I would make you aware of it. Here is the short version of it (not for the faint of heart). Here are some news stories of it, if it piques your interest.

Based on my personal experience living in Delhi for the last month of my summer, I couldn't pick up the morning newspaper on any day and not find something like this, albeit not as brutal and brazen, on the front page.

It's a national shame, AHers. What's even more shameful is the only things that the police and government are saying are that "women should not travel late at night", "should not dress provocatively" etc. And this is a city with 16 million people and 500 such incidents a year. If you consider India as a whole, a woman is raped every 20 minutes.

I'm sorry for this pointless and depressing post, but it just makes me so sad that such things happen to people. I would like to end by saying, I still love my country of origin and am proud of my culture, just wish it was less conducive to this sort of thing.

 

[Handley_Page]

It isn't pointless. Maybe could have been better timed, but not pointless.
This incident, together with that young female student shot by the Pakistani taliban, has done a bit to bring to the attention of the western media to the rampant violence in that part of the world.

It is to be hoped that she recovers and that the perpetrators are brought to justice.

 

[JackLuis]

I've been following the story and think that perhaps India is reaching a tipping point in the growth of their culture. A maturing, that if it doesn't dies stillborn, will be of substantial benefit to the whole subcontinent.

But the struggle will be long and difficult as the opposition is the deluded, stupid and fanatical.

 

[LaRascasse]

But the struggle will be long and difficult as the opposition is the deluded, stupid and fanatical.

... deluded, stupid, fanatical and sadly numerous.

 

[NaokoSmith]

It's a terrible crime for someone to be abused in this way. It happens all around the world in all different cultures - to men as well as women.
I've travelled in Pakistan as well as India. I stupidly went on a bus late at night once in Pakistan and sat at the back because I was tired and wanted to sleep. I was very lucky to escape with just being groped by one man.
Most of the time I was travelling with chaperones or I was sensible enough to sit in the purdah section at the front. There are mechanisms in place which seek to protect women even in a country which is as infamous for its treatment of women as Pakistan, although these often do fail. Sometimes I felt at my safest in Pakistan where the faith demands that women should be treated with respect even if socio-cultural attitudes towards women are appalling. Sometimes I felt completely demeaned and vulnerable.
Actually I believe that in our writing we can do something about this. When people write unthinkingly and reproduce violent abusive situations in erotic stories as if this is normal that reinforces them. I don't mean BDSM, which is often very thoughtful about power relations and gender. I mean a werewolf story I read once in which the wife loved the husband so much she would put up with her gentle lovely husband turning into a ravening beast who attacked her brutally. There didn't seem to be an escape for her - because she Lurved Him! His assaults on her were sexy in the way the story was written.
I try to write stories which say that women can be strong and men can be gentle and that that's more fun than group rape. I know that you do too. It doesn't seem much when you're doing it on your own but when you remember that there are very many of us developing work of this kind on this and other sites, perhaps it's not so small.
Sexual violence is all related so I'm going off now to Like an anti-domestic violence page on Facebook which I've been meaning to Like for several days but the Xmas horror show has taken up my attention. I'm going to circulate the page of a friend of mine who works in Africa to tackle gender violence more widely too.
xxx

 

[njlauren]

While I obviously find the whole honor killing culture, the whole thing where rape somehow isn't a crime of violence but rather of sexual dishonor, to be repulsive, you also have to put it into perspective that this has been a problem in other cultures, too, including in the west. It wasn't all that long ago that rape was viewed as a crime of lust and desire, and worse, that women somehow 'asked for it'. We just had some raging douchebag running for the senate in Missouri who said that somehow with rape if a woman got pregnant, that it wasn't rape, because if it was legitimate rape she couldn't get pregnant, with the implication that somehow the woman if she got pregnant must have been asking for it. Until about 35 years ago, it was legitimate tactic in a rape case to ask why a woman would be walking in a certain area, why she was wearing the clothing she was or whatever, they would basically make the claim 'the woman was asking for it' and it was accepted legal tactic. Not to mention that until about the same time period, a husband could force his wife to have sex, literally tie her down and forcibly have sex, and couldn't be charged with rape, and the biggest opponents of allowing husbands to be charged with rape were a lot of the churches in this country, who still viewed women as a man's property.......and more then a small swath of the religious right view women as a man's property still, and they also believe the idea, like the taliban in rural pakistan, that women are temptresses seducing all so heavenly men and so forth.....

I would take pride in the Indians who are protesting this, who are out there not letting the government and the police kowtow to the uneducated idiots, we have the same problem in this country, the kind of people with the attitudes about women and sex like that senator generally are ill educated, rural people, who have a lot in common with those who would do something like this. India has unique issues, you are dealing with a country of over 1 billion where many hundreds of millions are poor, ill educated and unfortunately, under the sway of religious types who promote such stupidity (from what I hear from my Indian friends, it is both the Muslim and the Hindu extremists that promote this crap), plus India had another problem, a lot of their views of sexuality and such were strongly influenced by the British Empire and all their victorian horse crap, so there is a lot to work on.As long as those who are on the side of right keep up the pressure, things will change

 

[NaokoSmith]

njlauren, I agree.

njlauren - I agree with you! You said it better than me.
'shit like this' happens everywhere. I think change is happening for the better most places too and so I continue to do whatever small things I can in hopes.
xxx

 

[LaRascasse]

While I obviously find the whole honor killing culture, the whole thing where rape somehow isn't a crime of violence but rather of sexual dishonor, to be repulsive, you also have to put it into perspective that this has been a problem in other cultures, too, including in the west. It wasn't all that long ago that rape was viewed as a crime of lust and desire, and worse, that women somehow 'asked for it'. We just had some raging douchebag running for the senate in Missouri who said that somehow with rape if a woman got pregnant, that it wasn't rape, because if it was legitimate rape she couldn't get pregnant, with the implication that somehow the woman if she got pregnant must have been asking for it. Until about 35 years ago, it was legitimate tactic in a rape case to ask why a woman would be walking in a certain area, why she was wearing the clothing she was or whatever, they would basically make the claim 'the woman was asking for it' and it was accepted legal tactic. Not to mention that until about the same time period, a husband could force his wife to have sex, literally tie her down and forcibly have sex, and couldn't be charged with rape, and the biggest opponents of allowing husbands to be charged with rape were a lot of the churches in this country, who still viewed women as a man's property.......and more then a small swath of the religious right view women as a man's property still, and they also believe the idea, like the taliban in rural pakistan, that women are temptresses seducing all so heavenly men and so forth.....

I would take pride in the Indians who are protesting this, who are out there not letting the government and the police kowtow to the uneducated idiots, we have the same problem in this country, the kind of people with the attitudes about women and sex like that senator generally are ill educated, rural people, who have a lot in common with those who would do something like this. India has unique issues, you are dealing with a country of over 1 billion where many hundreds of millions are poor, ill educated and unfortunately, under the sway of religious types who promote such stupidity (from what I hear from my Indian friends, it is both the Muslim and the Hindu extremists that promote this crap), plus India had another problem, a lot of their views of sexuality and such were strongly influenced by the British Empire and all their victorian horse crap, so there is a lot to work on.As long as those who are on the side of right keep up the pressure, things will change

It's much worse than that. Down the centuries, Hindus had institutionalized misogyny. There are practices like sati( where a widow is expected to jump into the funeral pyre of her husband. For obvious reasons, she puts up a fight before she is forced to do it anyway) and child marriage( self-explanatory), dowry and foeticide among so so many others which still go on in the backward corners of the second most populous nation in the world. It's this blatant disregard for women that is enmeshed in the fabric of Delhi that makes the situation so bad.

 

[NaokoSmith]

It's this blatant disregard for women that is enmeshed in the fabric of Delhi that makes the situation so bad.

Yes, it is - but not just in Delhi. And you having a very different way of thinking of women is part of a changing, better regard for both women and men.
This isn't just about women. Men grow up thinking that there are certain ways in which you have to behave to be a 'real' man. They think men should be superior but anyone who goes about trying to imagine they're better than those around them is constantly being reminded that they aren't, and if their ego is fragile, they usually lash out in abusive ways.
Things are changing. Here in the UK recently a top flight footballer was found guilty of rape for having sex with a young woman too drunk to understand. Two football pundits on tv were dismissed for making sexist remarks about a female linesman (she calls herself a linesman! You might have to know the background to this case to understand how hugely significant it is but just imagine one of the biggest names in American football tv commentary being sacked for sexism.)
But when something like this happens we can only feel very sad and angry.
xxx

 

[colddiesel]

Apologies for spoiling your day. If you want it unspoilt, don't read further

I realize this news is a little old (around 1 week), but seeing as it hasn't been mentioned here, thought I would make you aware of it. Here is the short version of it (not for the faint of heart). Here are some news stories of it, if it piques your interest.

.

A question La Racasse. Would the reaction have been different if a high caste woman was raped by low caste men , or is caste not a factor?

 

[LaRascasse]

A question La Racasse. Would the reaction have been different if a high caste woman was raped by low caste men , or is caste not a factor?

Hmm... this is a loaded question. I guess I should break it into two answers.

If you are talking in a backward rural setting where "rape" is a male right, then it would not ruffle any feathers. In fact, there was a publicized case once where the Sarpanch (village headman for simplicity) ordered that a guilty woman (guilty of something trivial) be gangraped publicly. There it is very likely that such an incident would be buried, denied and even justified if the victim belonged to a lower caste.

In a metropolis like Delhi, Mumbai or Kolkata, the caste factor does not matter too much. Rape is rape. However, there are several stereotypes and mindsets which come into play (eg- this woman is of a lower caste so she is probably a streetwalker and her alleged "rape" is a business transaction gone wrong). The few cases that trickle to the media explode into gigantic shows of fury, but at the end of the day only 1 in 4 rapists are convicted. That is not including the 9 in 10 cases in which the victim never comes forward.

 

[oggbashan]

... The few cases that trickle to the media explode into gigantic shows of fury, but at the end of the day only 1 in 4 rapists are convicted. That is not including the 9 in 10 cases in which the victim never comes forward.

1 in 4 convictions? That is a better rate than most of the UK.

India has a problem with rape. The UK has a problem with rape too.

If public attitudes are changing that is an improvement. It will still take years if not decades to change attitudes to make rape wholly unacceptable.

 

[LaRascasse]

1 in 4 convictions? That is a better rate than most of the UK.

India has a problem with rape. The UK has a problem with rape too.

If public attitudes are changing that is an improvement. It will still take years if not decades to change attitudes to make rape wholly unacceptable.

This 1 in 4 figure is only among the reported cases in urban areas. It's just the tip of the iceberg as the overall scenario goes.

 

[colddiesel]

Hmm... this is a loaded question. I guess I should break it into two answers.

If you are talking in a backward rural setting where "rape" is a male right, then it would not ruffle any feathers. In fact, there was a publicized case once where the Sarpanch (village headman for simplicity) ordered that a guilty woman (guilty of something trivial) be gangraped publicly. There it is very likely that such an incident would be buried, denied and even justified if the victim belonged to a lower caste.

In a metropolis like Delhi, Mumbai or Kolkata, the caste factor does not matter too much. Rape is rape. However, there are several stereotypes and mindsets which come into play (eg- this woman is of a lower caste so she is probably a streetwalker and her alleged "rape" is a business transaction gone wrong). The few cases that trickle to the media explode into gigantic shows of fury, but at the end of the day only 1 in 4 rapists are convicted. That is not including the 9 in 10 cases in which the victim never comes forward.

I accept your point that this is a loaded question. The background to it is that I was sent to India to work on a training project (for the army) more than 50 years ago. The attitudes you suggest prevail in the rural areas now were pretty general then.

India has made a lot of progress, but I guess still needs to make a lot more.

 

[LaRascasse]

Well... she finally gave up fighting today. RIP

 

[PennLady]

Well... she finally gave up fighting today. RIP

I saw that. Such a shame.

 

[lovecraft68]

Its shit like this that when my daughter told me her good friend from BU who lives in Delhi invited her to come home with her next year for 2 weeks (her parents graciously offered to pay because we have had her over our house for the last few holidays as she has no family here in the US)

I told her hell no and that was before I saw this.

I will never allow my daughter amongst the swine there and I don;t care how bad that sounds.

I'm fully aware something like that could happen here as well, but here there is a much greater chance for justice and the government(even republicans don;t condone gang rape)

That's a shame she passed and those cock roaches can believe in whatever they choose they're going to burn in hell with a hot poker up their ass and none of their 8 armed poser deities will prevent that.

That whole section of the world needs a good douching and a lot of castration

 

[LaRascasse]

Its shit like this that when my daughter told me her good friend from BU who lives in Delhi invited her to come home with her next year for 2 weeks (her parents graciously offered to pay because we have had her over our house for the last few holidays as she has no family here in the US)

I told her hell no and that was before I saw this.

I will never allow my daughter amongst the swine there and I don;t care how bad that sounds.

I'm fully aware something like that could happen here as well, but here there is a much greater chance for justice and the government(even republicans don;t condone gang rape)

That's a shame she passed and those cock roaches can believe in whatever they choose they're going to burn in hell with a hot poker up their ass and none of their 8 armed poser deities will prevent that.

That whole section of the world needs a good douching and a lot of castration

Ouch! Under different circumstances I might have taken offence to your character assassination of my people, but in this case, I really have nothing to say in the defense of what happened.

If your daughter does go to Delhi, tell her to never travel alone at night.

Now there is some populist talk of introducing the death penalty for rape, which is guaranteed to do more harm than good. :sigh:

And watch it with the generalizations LC. Not all of us Hindus (and in my case ex-Hindus) cast an eagle eyed glance wherever we go for rape victims. The less we say about rape-comments in this country the better. Might want to start some of that douching and castration in your own backyard before going all the way across the Pacific.

Use a dull knife.

 

[sr71plt]

Ouch! Under different circumstances I might have taken offence to your character assassination of my people, but in this case, I really have nothing to say in the defense of what happened.

I can remember when this happened in New York's Central Park. It's not the locale or the "people" doing this, nor is such "activity" endemic of one country over every other. So, I think you can safely go ahead and take offence.

The last report I read--on her death--says that six men have been arrested. Remains to be seen what happens to them, but they haven't just gotten off scot-free.

 

[lovecraft68]

Ah, India

Come for the culture, stay for the entertainment.

 

[sr71plt]

This message is hidden because lovecraft68 is on your ignore list.

 

[oggbashan]

Another Indian gang rape victim committed suicide recently. http://uk.news.yahoo.com/video/india-government-vows-combat-gang-150511335.html

Apparently the local police wouldn't investigate, and they and others were pressurising her to accept compensation to drop her accusation and/or to marry one of the rapists.

I hope that the fate of these women will change attitudes, not just in India, but everywhere that rape occurs.

 

[lovecraft68]

You know what's really ironic here?

Everyone is appalled and outraged as they should be.

But there are a boat load of stories in the non consent section that have this exact storyline.

But they're just harmless stories huh? Just think the people that whack off to them would find this story exciting.

That section is full of filth like this very occurrence and asshole here can't defend those stories fast enough.

Who knows maybe a couple of these animals read those stories.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You know what's really ironic here?

Everyone is appalled and outraged as they should be.

But there are a boat load of stories in the non consent section that have this exact storyline.

But they're just harmless stories huh? Just think the people that whack off to them would find this story exciting.

That section is full of filth like this very occurrence and asshole here can't defend those stories fast enough.

Who knows maybe a couple of these animals read those stories.

Yes dear, we know. Women talk about this all the time, just not in AH where we already know it won't do any good. Google "rape culture 101"

And I am reminded of one lovely evening when you yourself pretty much virtually raped a woman who came here for the first time. Wait-- she was Indian! And you told her she was low caste, and therefore just a whore. Why did you never apologise for that?

 

[PennLady]

And I am reminded of one lovely evening when you yourself pretty much virtually raped a woman who came here for the first time. Wait-- she was Indian! And you told her she was low caste, and therefore just a whore. Why did you never apologise for that?

Stella, do you mean this post from this thread?

Oh, I like them proud.

Goddess?

Spare me, most likely a low caste whore who thinks she's something.

Tell you what, why don't you crawl, I said crawl not walk, over here to me, and I'll be happy to use my fingers and type while you use your mouth to inspire me.

Worthless slut.

Hmmm, this would make an inserting scenario in the sexual role playing thread.