It's sad that all this brings me is a resigned sigh...

minsue

Gosling
Joined
Apr 27, 2002
Posts
22,062
No anger anymore, even. Just resignation & despair.

*sigh*


Vatican's search for gays in seminaries raises alarm


By Jason SzepFri Sep 16, 5:48 PM ET

A Vatican investigation of U.S. seminaries for evidence of homosexuality, sparked by a scandal over pedophile priests, infuriated gay rights advocates on Friday.

Teams of American Church officials will visit 229 seminaries, which train about 4,500 future priests, beginning this month and ending in spring, U.S. church officials said.

The Catholic Church demands celibacy of its priest and gay activists said the latest review amounted to a witchhunt.

The Vatican approved the seminary review, known as an apostolic visitation and the first in America since 1983, in response to the sexual abuse crisis that erupted in 2002 and triggered lawsuits by thousands of people abused by priests.

"There should not be any doubts about the lifestyle the priests ought to live," said Monsignor Francis Maniscalco, spokesman at the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. "It is an evaluation of seminaries to see if they are doing their job."

Underpinning concerns among U.S. Church leaders and conservative Catholics is a 2004 survey by John Jay College of Criminal Justice that found that, of 10,667 individuals abused by priests between 1950 and 2002, 81 percent were male.

Rev. Richard John Neuhaus, editor of First Things, a conservative Catholic journal, expects the review to lead to a ban by the Vatican on gays in America's seminaries. "Is there a particular concern about homosexuality? Sure," he said.

Edwin O'Brien, archbishop for the United States military who is supervising the seminary review, told The National Catholic Register that even gays who have been celibate for 10 or more years should not be admitted to seminaries.

Brian Saint-Paul, editor of the Catholic journal "Crisis," said he hoped the probe would not spark a witchhunt in the priesthood but that it was long overdue. "It's like having a heterosexual young man live in an all-female dorm," he said. It's not a reasonable position to put someone in."

Faculty members, seminarians and graduates from the last three years will be interviewed confidentially in the review, which was agreed when U.S. Cardinals visited the Vatican in April 2002 to discuss the abuse scandal, Maniscalco said.

"SCAPEGOAT"

Gay rights advocates such as Joe Solmonese, president of the Human Rights Campaign in Washington, said the Church was making gay men scapegoats for pedophiles.

"You have this massive problem within the Catholic Church and the Church's response to it, in one sweeping gesture, seems to be 'we're going to travel around the country and ask people if they are gay'," Solmonese said.

"What the Church is doing, to the outside observer who reads this, is immediately equating gay men with the abuse that is going on here that is perpetuating something that is absolutely not true."

The real problem is the Church's fixation on celibacy, said Daniel C. Maguire, a professor of moral theology at Marquette, a Jesuit university in Wisconsin.

"I see it (the investigation) as a diversionary tactic away from the real problem of Catholic clergy which is enforced celibacy," he said. "It's highly unrealistic. I would call it a failed experiment in human control." he said.

He said some studies he had read estimated about 50 percent of students studying at U.S. seminaries were now gay, and he believed the review could ultimately drain the Church of future priests.

"It's an impossible plan because if they eliminate the gays they are going to eliminate half their clergy in some of their places," he said.
 
A sigh has little impact, and resignation equals defeat. What do you want? Fight for it, no need to complain. ;)
 
CharleyH said:
A sigh has little impact, and resignation equals defeat. What do you want? Fight for it, no need to complain. ;)
I'll fight tomorrow. Tonight, I'll curl up & hope to sleep.
 
minsue said:
I'll fight tomorrow. Tonight, I'll curl up & hope to sleep.

Sounds cosy :D (sorry - there is not snuggle icon on lit )
 
News flash to the Vatican.

Hello! Pedophilia and homosexuality are not the same thing.

Pedophilia is an illness of the ego. The pedophile is so inept socially and so weak mentally, they victimize kids because kids are easy prey. It's a matter of power and not sex.

Have you checked a calendar recently? It's 2005 Anna Domino. We've learned a lot in those two thousand and five years. You should catch up.
 
rgraham666 said:
News flash to the Vatican.

Hello! Pedophilia and homosexuality are not the same thing.

Pedophilia is an illness of the ego. The pedophile is so inept socially and so weak mentally, they victimize kids because kids are easy prey. It's a matter of power and not sex.

Have you checked a calendar recently? It's 2005 Anna Domino. We've learned a lot in those two thousand and five years. You should catch up.

:kiss:

Why don't they just call it an Inquisition? Do they really think we're fooled??
 
rgraham666 said:
News flash to the Vatican.

Hello! Pedophilia and homosexuality are not the same thing.

Pedophilia is an illness of the ego. The pedophile is so inept socially and so weak mentally, they victimize kids because kids are easy prey. It's a matter of power and not sex.

Have you checked a calendar recently? It's 2005 Anna Domino. We've learned a lot in those two thousand and five years. You should catch up.


I was just thinking that. *snarl*
 
rgraham666 said:
News flash to the Vatican.

Hello! Pedophilia and homosexuality are not the same thing.

Pedophilia is an illness of the ego. The pedophile is so inept socially and so weak mentally, they victimize kids because kids are easy prey. It's a matter of power and not sex.

Have you checked a calendar recently? It's 2005 Anna Domino. We've learned a lot in those two thousand and five years. You should catch up.

Semantics! It's SEX. They've taken vows of CELIBACY. They SHOULD be on a witch hunt for ANY and ALL forms forms of sex ... if they're living by their own credo. To single out one form over any other is pure hypocrisy.
 
Ratzinger's revenge

The Rat is right on shedule. The morning of his election I new this reactionary would institute the most repressive , hierarchichal regime in 500 years. Overlooked are the overtures to Cardinal Lefebvre (sp?). He's spitting on the grave of John XXIII. The medieval papacy is reborn. All is not lost, however, for the soon to be purged seminarians. There's still hope in the Anglo-Catholic branch of our church even a Rome turns in on itself.
 
My friend E was in non denom Christian type seminary when he came out. Then he had a loss of faith and dropped out b/c he lost all his friends and a few of his siblings don't speak to him. He has regained his faith now and is moving on, but it was rough. I hate things like this.
 
rgraham666 said:
News flash to the Vatican.

Hello! Pedophilia and homosexuality are not the same thing.

Pedophilia is an illness of the ego. The pedophile is so inept socially and so weak mentally, they victimize kids because kids are easy prey. It's a matter of power and not sex.

Have you checked a calendar recently? It's 2005 Anna Domino. We've learned a lot in those two thousand and five years. You should catch up.

RG, If only you were right!

What have we truly learnt? That women should still be regarded as chattels, that being gay should be synonymous with pedophilia, that all offences against humanity can be excused by penitence and a few Hail Marys. There are some texts on this site I am truly ashamed of.

Pedophiles are social inadequates and can be male, female, gay, lesbian, hetero, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim or aetheist. It is a disease - and has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

The vituperation in the Baptist and Anglican churches against homosexuality and the vendetta of Islamic states just proves that our take on human values is more 2005 than those who claim to be closer to the eternal truth.

Where is God? Probably suffering from PMS.
 
I think AD actually stands for Anno Domini... anno being neutral (somebody who speaks latin better 'n me, please check).
 
taking a risk, it's been 40 yrs

Anno Domini means "In the year of the Lord" Anno, being dative case. If I remember, annum is a 4th declension noun which, as you say, are always neutral.

Oooh, I feel connected to my inner adolescent. Must be the porn.
 
Within the Dogma of the catholic church, Homosexuality is still an abomination before god, is it not? While you are required to love your neighbor and you are encouraged to try and bring sinners into the fold, it would seem to me Churches still have to right to establish criteria from becoming priests.

All men are imperfect and sinners before the eyes of god, unless I misunderstand Dogma and original sin. The Angelicans have a gay Bishop now and it has nearly casued a schism within that denomination. It may still cause one. A man living in sin, who is unwilling to put his calling above that is not exactly what you would call saintly.

I am not for discrimination based on orientation, or gender, or race. But it has long been held churches, as private organizations, may set any criteria for the priesthood that they wish. Other organizations also have this kind of immunity. The boyscouts for instance hold homosexuality is enemical to the teachings of their founder, Lord Badan Powell and the values they are trying to impart.

Objectively then, if the catholic church chooses not to ordain gay priests, they are well within their bounds. Their position on the nature of homosexuality would make ordaining openly gay people something of a paradoxx at the very least.

I'm not catholic. I think most here know I have a very dim veiw of that particular religion, for multiple reasons. So I am normally quite ready to point out when they are acting in a way I find objectionable.

In this case though, I don't see what the problem is. Their dogma holds that homosexuality is a mortal sin. Within the continuity of their dogma, appointing openly gay priests is akin to putting the foxes in charge at the hen house. While all priests are men and all men sin, you must admit having a priest who is openly, and unabashedly a sinner and not trying to rectify that would make him an ill candidate to provide guidance for other sinners wishing to find god.

Obviously, any priest you have is a flawed intermeiary between you and God. Still, the Church has an obligation to try and make that intermediary as close to saintly as he can be. Within their dogma, a homosexual cannot be very close to saintly.

Secular notions of right and wrong are often times at odds with ecclesiastical notions of right and wrong. No one here would be in favor of the church exerting doctrinal control over how we select secular authority figures. It seems a little unfair that we would, at the same time, attempt to impose secular control over how the Church chooses ecclssiastical authority figures.
 
I recognize the rights of the Catholic church in choosing not to ordain gay priests, though it makes me sad. It's the concept of an inquisition to root out the tainted in the seminaries that's a bit hard to swallow.
 
minsue said:
I recognize the rights of the Catholic church in choosing not to ordain gay priests, though it makes me sad. It's the concept of an inquisition to root out the tainted in the seminaries that's a bit hard to swallow.


With all due respect Mindy, if the estimate givien of Nearly half of all students being gay is close to accurate, it would seem an inquiry would be needed would it not? If only to ascertain the veracity of the claims. If they are correct, then the church will face a question of why half their preist candidates are gay, when gays make up significantly less thanhalf the population at alrge and, one would assume, an even smaller portion of the faithful?
 
rgraham666 said:
Pedophilia is an illness of the ego. The pedophile is so inept socially and so weak mentally, they victimize kids because kids are easy prey. It's a matter of power and not sex.
I hate to be the devil's advocate here, because to anyone who reads too fast it will think I'm a complete prick, but what you say is not really correct. It IS about sex. Pedophilia, gerontophilia, ephebophilia and so on are sexual attractions towards specific age groups. Objectively, there is nothing that separates pedophilia from any other sexual orientation. It is not an illness of the mind anymore than being attracted to, for instance, old people (gerontophilia).

However, pedophilia can not be practiced without victimizing children, since a minor can not be considered consenting. You have a point in that only those that are inept socially and weak mentally that sink to acting upon those urges.

But I think it's doing the issue a disservice by calling it a sickness. It leaves the door open to call other things that follow the same phychological patterns (any sexual orientation) a sickness too.

The divider is that this one can not be accepted, because there is always, inarguably, a victim involved. If it's not sexual, then it's still child abuse, but not pedophilia. To-ma-to versus to-mah-to? Semantic nitpicking? Perhaps, but I think it's important, for the reason mentioned above.
 
Anyway... to adress the first post. Yeah, they got their heads up their asses if they use pedohilism as an excuse to preform a witch hunt on gays.

This from the article was news to me.
He said some studies he had read estimated about 50 percent of students studying at U.S. seminaries were now gay, and he believed the review could ultimately drain the Church of future priests.
Interresting. What would it be that make so many gays aspire to engage in the Caholic Church, possibly even priesthood?
 
Colleen Thomas said:
With all due respect Mindy, if the estimate givien of Nearly half of all students being gay is close to accurate, it would seem an inquiry would be needed would it not? If only to ascertain the veracity of the claims. If they are correct, then the church will face a question of why half their preist candidates are gay, when gays make up significantly less thanhalf the population at alrge and, one would assume, an even smaller portion of the faithful?
Except that it isn't about homosexuality. If it were, they'd be inquiring of the nuns as well, would they not? It's about pedophelia and the Church is perpetuating the concept that all homosexual males are pedophiles in order to try to get themselves back into the good graces of the laity and the media.
 
minsue said:
Except that it isn't about homosexuality. If it were, they'd be inquiring of the nuns as well, would they not? It's about pedophelia and the Church is perpetuating the concept that all homosexual males are pedophiles in order to try to get themselves back into the good graces of the laity and the media.
Bingo!!!!

Pedophiles dont' consider themselves to be gay either. :rolleyes:
 
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