It's a sad day....

[SnoopDog]

Ok, I know I probably shouldn't do this but I'll do it anyways.

It's a sad day if America should choose to re-elect this texan moron.

I mean you can agree or disagree about his intelect or his persona but there are clearly some problems in America and it's voting system.
And I think Americans (though not all) should start looking at things from a different perspective.
And don't tell me it's none of my business because it is crucial to world politics.

- Stop voting people and start voting political programs:
A president has to be a good family father, has to have servbed in the army, shouldn't sweat in a tv-clash with his opponent, shouldn'T drink or have sex? What the fuck. Start talking about the things they want to do for the country an the world rather than what they look like. And did you guys even realize if you vote for Bush you also vote for Cheney, Ashcroft, Powell, Rice, etc. ????

- Change your goddamn stupid voting system:
Why can'T the guy with the most votes just win the election instead of letting the people vote for the guys in their states who will eventually elect the president? Why do we have to wait for a million days and two million judge verdicts to see who will be new chief of staff of the USA ??? It's ridiculous. Here in Europe at the end of the day we know who won the election....it's the guy/the party with the most votes....clever, isn't it?

- Change your goddamn stupid voting systems:
Electronical votes, cards, levers, ballots, etc....... ??? What the fuck?
Is it so difficult to use ONE system for the entire country???
I mean, every american who is allowed to vote should have the intellect to make a huge 'X' at the right spot on a small piece of paper. It works for other countries, it could work for you as well. Dammit, I mean someone's vote who is not able to write a 'X' at the right spot shouldn't count anyways. People are not THAT stupid you know.

- The world is more than black and white (and I'm not talking about skin colors):
If you are not for us you are against us? If you don't like Bush you have to like Kerry? If you are not republican you are democrat? BULLSHIT !
It sad for a democratic state as huge as the USA (and it's the same over here by the way) that there are only two major political parties established. With all the different ethnicities and religions, can'T you guys come up with more? Why do people vote for a christian-fanatic?
Why not vote Nader? Can he possibly fuck up things in a bigger way than Georgy-Boy? No, he can't. Noone can.

- Repeat after me: It's okay to change your opinions and points of view:
There is no shame in chaning your opinion. It's an act of courage to admit you were wrong. I have the feeling a lot of people back Bush because if they admitted that he is a lying bastard they'd also admit they made a wrong decision four years ago. It's ok to admit a mistake. People will respect your for it rather than blame you. Why can'T you overcome your pride and dignity and just admit that you saw things differently but not realised the truth.

- While we're at it, open your eyes and see the truth:
I mean if you were not clever enough to see the obvious, just listen to the Bush administration. They admit that there was no relation El Qaida - Iraq, there were no WMD in Iraq, Saddam was NOT an obvious threat. If politicians in our country would openly admit their lies in such huge issues the people would scream 'Bloddy murder' and probably send them to exile or jail.
And by the way, if you really believe it's not about the oil you should go back to school. Take the classes where they teach you how to use your brain to make your own judgements.

- 'Patriotism' is not an argument:
'America the Great, U-S-A, FOR THE LAND OF THE FREE AND THE HOME OF THE BRAVE ! You may love your country (as I love the US of A) and take pride in yourselves. But just because you do so doesn'T mean you HAVE to agree to everything that Bush says or does just because he ends his sentences with 'God bless the USA'.

- Just because you don't like Michael Moore you don't have to vote for Bush:
I know the fat cap-wearing guy bends the facts, I know he kinda is sloppy in research and very propagandistic. But at least he gets the people talking about the really important issues. That's his task and you gotta admire him for it. Your country has problems with crime, health insurance, environment problems and your head of state is an idiot. Who cares about whether Clinton had sex with her or not. Or if the daughters of Bush were drunk or not. Start using your brains and talk about the real problems.

- Bush is also a religious fundamentalist:
Why does only a good christian have a chance as president. God bless america? I mean, he is also a religios fanatic. Just that it's not Allah.

- Only because there are people with my opinion, it doesn'T mean they are anti-american or evil:
The old Europe? Axis of Evil? BULLSHIT. We love and need america. We're just telling you guys the painful truth.


Don't get me wrong people, I love america. It's the only place I wanna go once in my life before I die. But you DO have problems. And you do make the wrong choice voting for Bush.
I know it's too late now and I know my rant got a little long. Sorry, but I had to say it.
It IS a sad day.
At the moment as an atheist I pray for Ohio to pull a miracle.


Snoopy, installing 'Beware the dog' signs for the next couple of weeks.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by SnoopDog
- Stop voting people and start voting political programs:

We do.

- Change your goddamn stupid voting system:

States having the right, as well as population, to vote well sums up the point of our Constitution--I think

- The world is more than black and white (and I'm not talking about skin colors):

Kerry was against gay marriage, so was Bush. Party lines are guidelines, the candidates--going back as far as I can remember--aren't absolutely black-and-white.

- Repeat after me: It's okay to change your opinions and points of view:

And we do.

- While we're at it, open your eyes and see the truth:

We deal with certain blessings like government as an entity with purpose, free press independant of governmental control, and the people being both in charge and responsible for their actions every day. I wouldn't have it any other way. The issue is not as simple as "It was a bed of liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiies", its ludricrous to believe it to be.

- 'Patriotism' is not an argument:

And we already understand that.

- Just because you don't like Michael Moore you don't have to vote for Bush:

And just because you like Michael Moore doesn't mean you have to vote Kerry.

- Bush is also a religious fundamentalist:

Which is not an inherantly bad thing.

- Only because there are people with my opinion, it doesn'T mean they are anti-american or evil:

Pending the opinion, could go either way.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Ok, I know I probably shouldn't do this but I'll do it anyways.

It's a sad day if America should choose to re-elect this texan moron.

I mean you can agree or disagree about his intelect or his persona but there are clearly some problems in America and it's voting system.
And I think Americans (though not all) should start looking at things from a different perspective.
And don't tell me it's none of my business because it is crucial to world politics.

- Stop voting people and start voting political programs:
A president has to be a good family father, has to have servbed in the army, shouldn't sweat in a tv-clash with his opponent, shouldn'T drink or have sex? What the fuck. Start talking about the things they want to do for the country an the world rather than what they look like. And did you guys even realize if you vote for Bush you also vote for Cheney, Ashcroft, Powell, Rice, etc. ????

- Change your goddamn stupid voting system:
Why can'T the guy with the most votes just win the election instead of letting the people vote for the guys in their states who will eventually elect the president? Why do we have to wait for a million days and two million judge verdicts to see who will be new chief of staff of the USA ??? It's ridiculous. Here in Europe at the end of the day we know who won the election....it's the guy/the party with the most votes....clever, isn't it?

- Change your goddamn stupid voting systems:
Electronical votes, cards, levers, ballots, etc....... ??? What the fuck?
Is it so difficult to use ONE system for the entire country???
I mean, every american who is allowed to vote should have the intellect to make a huge 'X' at the right spot on a small piece of paper. It works for other countries, it could work for you as well. Dammit, I mean someone's vote who is not able to write a 'X' at the right spot shouldn't count anyways. People are not THAT stupid you know.

- The world is more than black and white (and I'm not talking about skin colors):
If you are not for us you are against us? If you don't like Bush you have to like Kerry? If you are not republican you are democrat? BULLSHIT !
It sad for a democratic state as huge as the USA (and it's the same over here by the way) that there are only two major political parties established. With all the different ethnicities and religions, can'T you guys come up with more? Why do people vote for a christian-fanatic?
Why not vote Nader? Can he possibly fuck up things in a bigger way than Georgy-Boy? No, he can't. Noone can.

- Repeat after me: It's okay to change your opinions and points of view:
There is no shame in chaning your opinion. It's an act of courage to admit you were wrong. I have the feeling a lot of people back Bush because if they admitted that he is a lying bastard they'd also admit they made a wrong decision four years ago. It's ok to admit a mistake. People will respect your for it rather than blame you. Why can'T you overcome your pride and dignity and just admit that you saw things differently but not realised the truth.

- While we're at it, open your eyes and see the truth:
I mean if you were not clever enough to see the obvious, just listen to the Bush administration. They admit that there was no relation El Qaida - Iraq, there were no WMD in Iraq, Saddam was NOT an obvious threat. If politicians in our country would openly admit their lies in such huge issues the people would scream 'Bloddy murder' and probably send them to exile or jail.
And by the way, if you really believe it's not about the oil you should go back to school. Take the classes where they teach you how to use your brain to make your own judgements.

- 'Patriotism' is not an argument:
'America the Great, U-S-A, FOR THE LAND OF THE FREE AND THE HOME OF THE BRAVE ! You may love your country (as I love the US of A) and take pride in yourselves. But just because you do so doesn'T mean you HAVE to agree to everything that Bush says or does just because he ends his sentences with 'God bless the USA'.

- Just because you don't like Michael Moore you don't have to vote for Bush:
I know the fat cap-wearing guy bends the facts, I know he kinda is sloppy in research and very propagandistic. But at least he gets the people talking about the really important issues. That's his task and you gotta admire him for it. Your country has problems with crime, health insurance, environment problems and your head of state is an idiot. Who cares about whether Clinton had sex with her or not. Or if the daughters of Bush were drunk or not. Start using your brains and talk about the real problems.

- Bush is also a religious fundamentalist:
Why does only a good christian have a chance as president. God bless america? I mean, he is also a religios fanatic. Just that it's not Allah.

- Only because there are people with my opinion, it doesn'T mean they are anti-american or evil:
The old Europe? Axis of Evil? BULLSHIT. We love and need america. We're just telling you guys the painful truth.


Don't get me wrong people, I love america. It's the only place I wanna go once in my life before I die. But you DO have problems. And you do make the wrong choice voting for Bush.
I know it's too late now and I know my rant got a little long. Sorry, but I had to say it.
It IS a sad day.
At the moment as an atheist I pray for Ohio to pull a miracle.


Snoopy, installing 'Beware the dog' signs for the next couple of weeks.

LOL. And I thought we were bad loosers

Some notes little beagle, and I am not trying to be condescending or mean.

Our politics is intertwined with the person of the politician. That's just the way it is. I asure you, the politics of the Democratic party were just as influential in Kerry looseing (should he loose) as the man. We actually vote for our leader (well, technically we vote for electors who vote for him). You want to feel like you are electing someone who is a good man as well as a good staesman, I don't see that that is an unreasonable position.

Why can'T the guy with the most votes just win the election instead of letting the people vote for the guys in their states who will eventually elect the president? Why do we have to wait for a million days and two million judge verdicts to see who will be new chief of staff of the USA ??? It's ridiculous. Here in Europe at the end of the day we know who won the election....it's the guy/the party with the most votes....clever, isn't it?

Quite simply, we don't want it that way. Our country is significantly larger than most of yours. The variation in needs and concerns is significantly larger. A politician over here can't just appeal to the most voters, he has to appeal to the widest range of concerns. In a country where the population is fairly homogenous, direct popular votes may work. In a vast nation, with radically different cncerns from region to region, and a significantly more heterogenous population, it' not as good an idea. Liberals will agree with you, realizing full well, that in a direct election a candidate here need only carry the urbanized area's and he will win. Those of us who don't want New york City, Chicago, Las angeles, Atlanta etc. etc. deciding every election are pretty ocmfortable with an electoral system. Since that group is still right around half of us, don't expect a change to a direct vote any time soon.

States pay for elections. States govern them. States select the method their people want. Again, you are talking about a vast area, and now you are intruding upon the rights of states Vs. The federal authority. That's always contentious. When you begin to talk about trampling the perogatives of the states, you are talking about a messy fight, zealous teritorial spats and eventually recourse to the courts.

Third parties haven't flown over here. With rare exception they are barely after thoughts, historical trivia if you will. You can take that back to Jefferson vs. Madison, the two main thinkers and mouth pieces of their day. If a personage no less than Theodore Roosevelt couldn't make a third party fly, I seriously doubt there is anyone on the political stage at this point who could. At best our third parties draw enough of the vote to convince the major party they helped defeat to adopt some of their ideas.

*Sigh* Admiting George is a dick has little to do with it snoop. George still represents the party of his ideas. Just because George is a dim bulb dosen't mean pro life people will become pro choice, Anti gay marriage people will embrace it, Military men will vote for an anti military party, gun owners will give up their rights in the dubious proposition that them bneing unarmed makes them safer, etc. etc. ad infinitum. He is the leader of a party and all it expouses. In short it isn't admiting you were wrong. It' a case of he may be a bastard, but he's our bastard.

While we're at it, open your eyes and see the truth:
I mean if you were not clever enough to see the obvious, just listen to the Bush administration. They admit that there was no relation El Qaida - Iraq, there were no WMD in Iraq, Saddam was NOT an obvious threat. If politicians in our country would openly admit their lies in such huge issues the people would scream 'Bloddy murder' and probably send them to exile or jail.
And by the way, if you really believe it's not about the oil you should go back to school. Take the classes where they teach you how to use your brain to make your own judgements.

And you became omniscient and omnipotent when? I exercise my brain all the time. If I don't happen to agree with you does that make me stupid? From your above statement it would seem so. Just because it's an obvious truth to your eyes dosen't mean it's one to mine. And if it is all about oil, so what? If in my world view we have every right to colonize weaker nations and take their resources, then it's only right we went over there. That's an extreme point of view, but it illustrates that your take on things and someone elses might be vastly different and have nothing to do with intellect.

Patriotism, is always a good excuse. I need not remind you of the cheeringmases when Hitler reoccupied the Sarr or the Rhineland. patriotism is a very powerful force and it will always be a factor. you can decry the fact that the GOP has cornered the market in patriotism, but dismissing it as a political factor is foolish.

Micheal Moore is the Rush Limbaugh of the left. Like Rush pushes some independants to vote for the left with his ideological tirades, Moore does the same pushing some people to the right. Personally if Bush wins, I hope they arrest the Fucktard for influencing votes with gifts and jail him till he dies. And I didn't even vote for Bush. And you had to end this little section with another swipe at our collective intellects? May I ask why? Or is it that we are automatically stupid for not seeing it your way?

The religious right in this country has gained tremendous sway in the political arena. They can mobilize the vote and cough up big bucks for campaigns. That's a political reality. The GOP has seized on it, played it against the immoral agenda most christians see in the liberal left and ran with it. A man dosen't have to be a good Christian to win, but if wants to carry the south and mid west, he better have a place reserved in the Amen pew.

Let me give you a few painful truths snoop. You don't have much of a military because we protect you. We have been for years. If you think the reason the red Army didn't brush your defense forces aside is their better nature, you're just wrong. You haven't had to pay for defense. You haven't had to spend millions in R & D. You didn't have to develope nuclear subs or the intermediate range ballistic missiles the russiand so hated sitting in their silos in your country. Nato has been there for a long long time. And if a lot of Americans see your refusal to support us as a stab in the back, you might take a long look at it from a slightly differenet perspective. Did you expect gratitude for not helping us?

Your political views are yours hun. I do not doubt that some on this board share them and I think they feel your pain a lot more acutely than you do. At the same time, giving us a lecture on our political system without a full grasp of it is a little arrogant. Insinuating we aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, just because we don't all see it your way is more than a little insulting.

I'm a conserative. I consider myself to be the intelectual equal of all but a few here. I don't agree on a lot of points with a lot of people here, but that dosen't mean they are stupid or that I am. Diferences of opinion can occur between even the most informed of people. When the view point is colored by upbringing, culture and life experience, it's amazing we agree on anything.

-Colly

 

[SnoopDog]

Re: Re: It's a sad day....

LOL. And I thought we were bad loosers

Some notes little beagle, and I am not trying to be condescending or mean.

Our politics is intertwined with the person of the politician. That's just the way it is. I asure you, the politics of the Democratic party were just as influential in Kerry looseing (should he loose) as the man. We actually vote for our leader (well, technically we vote for electors who vote for him). You want to feel like you are electing someone who is a good man as well as a good staesman, I don't see that that is an unreasonable position.

You are right, it is important to have someone in charge who is a good statesman. But I think America does exagerate that. I mean, in the end the personal life of the candidate counts more than his political skills. And if you were really voting for a skilled, intelligent, nice statesman, then why the hell did you (re-)elect Bush ????????

States pay for elections. States govern them. States select the method their people want. Again, you are talking about a vast area, and now you are intruding upon the rights of states Vs. The federal authority. That's always contentious. When you begin to talk about trampling the perogatives of the states, you are talking about a messy fight, zealous teritorial spats and eventually recourse to the courts.

We have the same problem, our 'states' (Bundesländer are always in argument with the government, still it works. And don't just blame everything on size because I think it doesn't matter THAT much.

Third parties haven't flown over here. With rare exception they are barely after thoughts, historical trivia if you will. You can take that back to Jefferson vs. Madison, the two main thinkers and mouth pieces of their day. If a personage no less than Theodore Roosevelt couldn't make a third party fly, I seriously doubt there is anyone on the political stage at this point who could. At best our third parties draw enough of the vote to convince the major party they helped defeat to adopt some of their ideas.

That's what I'm talking about. It shouldn't be this way. I mean even a small country like us was able to come up with a relatively new party that was just made out of special agendas and ideologies (our green party that is) and now it does govern the country along with our 'democrats' if you like to say so.

*Sigh* Admiting George is a dick has little to do with it snoop. George still represents the party of his ideas. Just because George is a dim bulb dosen't mean pro life people will become pro choice, Anti gay marriage people will embrace it, Military men will vote for an anti military party, gun owners will give up their rights in the dubious proposition that them bneing unarmed makes them safer, etc. etc. ad infinitum. He is the leader of a party and all it expouses. In short it isn't admiting you were wrong. It' a case of he may be a bastard, but he's our bastard.

Agreed, but why would any nation still vote for a moron like him. There had to be the decision that he was candidate for presidency. Who made that decision? Blame him ! Who elected him? Blame yourselves. Somebody has to be blamed for it, dammit !

And you became omniscient and omnipotent when? I exercise my brain all the time. If I don't happen to agree with you does that make me stupid? From your above statement it would seem so. Just because it's an obvious truth to your eyes dosen't mean it's one to mine. And if it is all about oil, so what? If in my world view we have every right to colonize weaker nations and take their resources, then it's only right we went over there. That's an extreme point of view, but it illustrates that your take on things and someone elses might be vastly different and have nothing to do with intellect.

Hell, I even wouldn't have a problem that it was only for the oil if they at least admit it. Of course noone could have known. I believed them when they said El Qaida and Saddam had realtions. But now THAT we know the truth (and to me this is a crime what Bush and his people did) then why don't you just grab all your guns, walk down to Pennsilvania Av. and throw him out of that huge white house and your country????

Patriotism, is always a good excuse. I need not remind you of the cheeringmases when Hitler reoccupied the Sarr or the Rhineland. patriotism is a very powerful force and it will always be a factor. you can decry the fact that the GOP has cornered the market in patriotism, but dismissing it as a political factor is foolish.

But you should be better than that my dear. Because people should have learned from the past and now be able to see through empty shells of propaganda and patriotism. If patriotism means to be proud of your country and only want the best for it, then you should elect a good president to represent yourselves to the world.

Micheal Moore is the Rush Limbaugh of the left. Like Rush pushes some independants to vote for the left with his ideological tirades, Moore does the same pushing some people to the right. Personally if Bush wins, I hope they arrest the Fucktard for influencing votes with gifts and jail him till he dies. And I didn't even vote for Bush. And you had to end this little section with another swipe at our collective intellects? May I ask why? Or is it that we are automatically stupid for not seeing it your way?

Our opinions are clearly divided here.
And of course I'm not talking about the majority of americans or anything. But I just can't believe why so many americans seem to NOT use their brains when it comes to politics.

The religious right in this country has gained tremendous sway in
the political arena. They can mobilize the vote and cough up big bucks for campaigns. That's a political reality. The GOP has seized on it, played it against the immoral agenda most christians see in the liberal left and ran with it. A man dosen't have to be a good Christian to win, but if wants to carry the south and mid west, he better have a place reserved in the Amen pew.

And you think this is a good thing????

Let me give you a few painful truths snoop. You don't have much of a military because we protect you. We have been for years. If you think the reason the red Army didn't brush your defense forces aside is their better nature, you're just wrong. You haven't had to pay for defense. You haven't had to spend millions in R & D. You didn't have to develope nuclear subs or the intermediate range ballistic missiles the russiand so hated sitting in their silos in your country. Nato has been there for a long long time. And if a lot of Americans see your refusal to support us as a stab in the back, you might take a long look at it from a slightly differenet perspective. Did you expect gratitude for not helping us?

I never said we don't need America. I never said we are not grateful for America's deeds and I never said I was happy with the relations of our two countries.
But blame us for not helping Mr. Bush to make his own little unjustified war for money and power and out of personal desires ? I would have felt ashamed if we had helped attacking Iraq.

Your political views are yours hun. I do not doubt that some on this board share them and I think they feel your pain a lot more acutely than you do. At the same time, giving us a lecture on our political system without a full grasp of it is a little arrogant. Insinuating we aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, just because we don't all see it your way is more than a little insulting.

Ok, this is the only thing I give you. I really don't know too much about your voting system. But what I know makes me think that it sucks. Because something like four years ago, I would have expected to happen in Afghanistan or Iraq but not in the USofA.

I'm a conserative. I consider myself to be the intelectual equal of all but a few here. I don't agree on a lot of points with a lot of people here, but that dosen't mean they are stupid or that I am. Diferences of opinion can occur between even the most informed of people. When the view point is colored by upbringing, culture and life experience, it's amazing we agree on anything.

-Colly

Ok, I apologize if it sounded like I thought all americans were idiots. Of course they are not.
But a lot of them are.
Too many of them too easily chose not to think about things in my opinion.
And a lot of them don't really try to act against the madness that will now continue for four more years.

Oh and by the way, I might seem to be a bad loser, but this loss really makes me angry.

Snoopy

 

[Guest]

 

[cloudy]

I really can't add much to what Colly has already said, Snoop, but your post came off as more than a little arrogant and patronizing, and that is not what I've come to expect from you.

Colly's right - political systems that work in other countries wouldn't necessarily work here simply because we are so damn big.

Maybe you should learn some about this country and our electoral process before you start making blanket statements as to the intelligence of an entire country...one of the biggest countries in the world, with one of the most diverse populations.

I won't argue with your opinion, you have the right to think whatever you like, but please don't assume that just because someone disagrees with you means that they're stupid. Sheesh.

 

[rgraham666]

Without wanting to rant, I don't believe America is quite aware of how much the rest of the world is scared of you.

That's what drove Snoop's original post.

We're watching a neighbour who we love dearly slowly go schizoid. We can't seem to help them and they have lots of very big guns. And there's no cops or mental health workers to call for aid.

Sorry folks. That's how I feel. There are many people on this board who are Americans who I regard as friends. One has become especially dear to me.

But I fear the direction your nation is going. The messianic fervor that's always been a part of your culture is coming to the fore. The rest of us wonder about and fear where that's going to lead you.

 

[SnoopDog]

I really can't add much to what Colly has already said, Snoop, but your post came off as more than a little arrogant and patronizing, and that is not what I've come to expect from you.

Colly's right - political systems that work in other countries wouldn't necessarily work here simply because we are so damn big.

Maybe you should learn some about this country and our electoral process before you start making blanket statements as to the intelligence of an entire country...one of the biggest countries in the world, with one of the most diverse populations.

I won't argue with your opinion, you have the right to think whatever you like, but please don't assume that just because someone disagrees with you means that they're stupid. Sheesh.

Ok, this is the only thing I give you. I really don't know too much about your voting system. But what I know makes me think that it sucks. Because something like four years ago, I would have expected to happen in Afghanistan or Iraq but not in the USofA.

Ok, I apologize if it sounded like I thought all americans were idiots. Of course they are not.
But a lot of them are.
Too many of them too easily chose not to think about things in my opinion.
And a lot of them don't really try to act against the madness that will now continue for four more years.

What can I say more than what I already said ???
If you still take this personally, I'm sorry.

Snoopy

 

[shereads]

Snoop, I'd be the last person to say this is none of your business. As awful as it feels to be outnumbered by people whose beliefs and motives I can't begin to understand, it must be even more frustrating to know your world will also be affected, and that you have no voice.

We owed our allies better than this. I'm so sorry.

Please don't forget that some of us understood. We tried, Snoop. Some of us have fought this battle for five years. There's nothing left to do now but grieve and await the worst.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Snoop,

I sympathize with your frustration. Every national candidate I voted for lost. But please believe me, if we had everything worked out perfectly over here, there wouldn't be twenty-seven amendments to our constitution. (one repeals another so only 25 are meaningful)

Which reminds me, the first ten amendments make up what's called the "Bill of Rights." The tenth, and last one, reads:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

And that's why the states (as in, The United States of America) or if they so choose, their political sub-divisions, run elections.

When it comes to forms of government, one size does not fit all. After World War II, Gen. MacArthur, a very conservative Republican, had to create a democratic government for Japan. Instead of trying to impose a cookie-cutter replica of the US Federal system, he went with a Parliamentary system.

As for voting the party instead of the candidate: When Franklin Roosevelt became president during the depths of the Great Depression in 1933, it quickly became obvious increased government spending would be needed to prime the economy's pump and get money back into circulation. Doing that would involve the government going into debt.

However, the Democratic Party platform, which Roosevelt had endorsed, called for a balanced budget. When his advisors asked how they could explain the switch, FDR is supposed to have replied, "Tell 'em I lied."

Rumple Foreskin

 

[McKenna]

Re: Re: It's a sad day....

Colly is my hero.

That said:

Our politics is intertwined with the person of the politician. That's just the way it is.

I can remember in college one of my professors saying how England has a pretty good deal: They have a royal family to gossip, praise, hold accountable on a social level, popularize, etc. and a prime minister to run the country. It's a simplified way of looking at things, but on the surface, not such a bad plan.


(My apologies to all my British friends. This is not meant AT ALL to be anything but facetious.)

 

[McKenna]

However, the Democratic Party platform, which Roosevelt had endorsed, called for a balanced budget. When his advisors asked how they could explain the switch, FDR is supposed to have replied, "Tell 'em I lied."

We desperately need another FDR!


Thanks for sharing all of that, RF.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Re: Re: Re: It's a sad day....

Colly is my hero.

That said:

I can remember in college one of my professors saying how England has a pretty good deal: They have a royal family to gossip, praise, hold accountable on a social level, popularize, etc. and a prime minister to run the country. It's a simplified way of looking at things, but on the surface, not such a bad plan.


(My apologies to all my British friends. This is not meant AT ALL to be anything but facetious.)

Hells bells, Mc. Don't you realize that's what we have over here?

The Bush's are our royal family. The Prime Minister, the person who actually runs the country is, Dick Cheney.

That may be the first joke of the modern, neo-con hegemony. But it hurts too much to laugh and I'm too big to cry.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[McKenna]

Re: Re: Re: Re: It's a sad day....

That may be the first joke of the modern, neo-con hegemony. But it hurts too much to laugh and I'm too big to cry.

There, there...


Wish I could kiss it and make it all better. Oy.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's a sad day....

There, there...


Wish I could kiss it and make it all better. Oy.

Me, too, Mc. Me, too.

RF

 

[minsue]

Snoop, RG, Sher

*nods*

*pats the lil beagle on the head*

 

[cloudy]

Snoop, I'd be the last person to say this is none of your business. As awful as it feels to be outnumbered by people whose beliefs and motives I can't begin to understand, it must be even more frustrating to know your world will also be affected, and that you have no voice.

We owed our allies better than this. I'm so sorry.

Please don't forget that some of us understood. We tried, Snoop. Some of us have fought this battle for five years. There's nothing left to do now but grieve and await the worst.

Just for the record, Sher.....

although I don't consider it anyone's business who I voted for, I certainly don't mind telling you it wasn't Bush.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I have friends overseas. Most of them seem to feel the same way Snoop does. They are astonished that a country as great as America doesn't see GWB the way the rest of the world sees him. They can't believe our provincialism when it comes to religion and world affairs.

We're feared in the world, but we're no longer admired.

---dr.M.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

One of the many interviews I watched of the discussions leading up to this election was with a former foreign Ambassador (whose name I have forgotten) with personal ties all around the world. He was asked what he thought was the most significant impression foreigners – politicians, diplomats, and regular citizens – would take away from this election.

His answer was that America is, at the moment, one of the most universally disliked countries in the world, amongst the common people, but that dislike was always tempered by the provision, that by America they did not mean the average citizen, only their government, specifically under this administration. In fact, many paused to express the opinion that the American population had not actually voted for this Administration but had it “legally” appointed.

If, however, the American population ever chose the Bush Administration in a seemingly honest election, especially after its repudiation of the United Nations and Invasion of Iraq, that provision would end.

Then the level of dislike at the political level would probably filter down to everyday diplomatic exchanges, inter-bureau cooperation, global commerce, and the treatment of individual Americans abroad. Then, Americans would discover that there was a whole other area of concern which this election had never touched upon.

Considering that the only way the world outside of America and Iraq (and Poland) figured in this election was when each candidate promised to obtain world assistance for American troops already in Iraq, it should be interesting to see what — with this sort of mandate — even John Kerry could deliver.

I believe our allies where expecting a massive repudiation of the Bush Administration agenda. Now the truth has been demonstrated for them.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Ok, I know I probably shouldn't do this but I'll do it anyways.

It's a sad day if America should choose to re-elect this texan moron.

You see that red swath in the middle of the country? It's called the Bible belt, you can't fight it. By painting your opponent as a man who doesn't share 'our traditional values' and a friend to the 'cultural elete' it's hard to loose these states if you can prove yourself to be the opposite- A siimple and God fearing man.

Here's a country music lyric that sums it up pretty well:
"I'm just a singer of simple songs I'm not a real political man
I watch CNN but I'm not sure I can tell you the difference in Iraq
and Iran
But I know Jesus and I talk to God
And, I remember this from when I was young
Faith, hope and love are some good things he gave us
And the greatest is love"

I'll probably take heat for saying this, but I think a lot of American's take a lot of pride in there own ignorance. Don't want to be too pretentious, to hoity-toity, or god forbid cultured. Don't want or need to understand the rest of the world, learn a second language or figure out the difference between Iraq and Iran, or Osama and Sadamm.

And I think a big part of the vote for bush is from people who just love that he's "simple, straightforward and 'an ordinary guy'- 'one of us'"

I think a big part of the thinking goes, "Don't vote for Kerry. Not only does he not share our values, not only will he leave us undefended against terrorism, but even worse than that *he thinks he's better than you.*

 

[sweetnpetite]

Without wanting to rant, I don't believe America is quite aware of how much the rest of the world is scared of you.

That's what drove Snoop's original post.

We're watching a neighbour who we love dearly slowly go schizoid. We can't seem to help them and they have lots of very big guns. And there's no cops or mental health workers to call for aid.

Sorry folks. That's how I feel. There are many people on this board who are Americans who I regard as friends. One has become especially dear to me.

But I fear the direction your nation is going. The messianic fervor that's always been a part of your culture is coming to the fore. The rest of us wonder about and fear where that's going to lead you.

Take heart rgrahm,

In 4 years he'll be out regardless.

Thank God for term limits!

Hey, it's the best I can offer right now.

 

[Somme]

It's time to go back to work, eh?

Perhaps this time summat realistic like, say........ummm...an impeachment?

Yes?

 

[sweetnpetite]

my own conspiracy theory...

"Congratulations, Mr. President," Kerry said in the conversation described by sources as lasting less than five minutes. One of the sources was Republican, the other a Democrat.


The Democratic source said Bush called Kerry a worthy, tough and honorable opponent. Kerry told Bush the country was too divided, the source said, and Bush agreed. "We really have to do something about it," Kerry said according to the Democratic official.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20041103/ap_on_el_pr/eln_election_rdp

Lucky for Bush, Osama's still at large. (after all he hit the trifecta after the first time he attached us)

 

[SnoopDog]

Now that Kerry will announce defeat in about ten minutes (which I back since it's the best thing to do now; why insist on counting and waiting when you just postpone the inevitable?) I'm at the point that I can see the good thing in the elections outcome.

It'll be four years of more Michael Moore films for me to enjoy and there probably will always be some fun in the White House. (You know Brezel-incidents, bad grammar, wrong proverbs and that evil laughter)

Snoopy, just can't stop disliking Bush

 

[shereads]

I have friends overseas. Most of them seem to feel the same way Snoop does. They are astonished that a country as great as America doesn't see GWB the way the rest of the world sees him. They can't believe our provincialism when it comes to religion and world affairs.

We're feared in the world, but we're no longer admired.

---dr.M.

I don't admire us anymore either, dr. M.

In fact, I don't mind being the first American in this forum to admit what most of us are probably saying privately: stupidity played no small role yesterday. Karl Rove was counting on it. Just as Osama bin Laden was counting on Bush to behave stupidly after 9/11.

There were some smart people who voted for Bush/Cheney yesterday: the wealthy who benefit directly from his tax cuts, and major shareholders of companies that benitfit from corporate welfare and a reduced wage structure. For evangelical Christians, the choice was faith-based and no assumptions can be made about its intelligence.

Stupid? What else can you call reelecting a man whose every decision has been disastrous, self-serving or both; a man whose response to failure is to call it a success, or blame someone else. A man who, for God's sake, staged a full-scale invasion of the wrong country. This is smart?

"Congress saw the same evidence I did." Yes, you whining toady, because you didn't present any evidence unless it supported your agenda. That was either stupid, or a calculated manipulation of a post-9/11 Congress fearful of being labeled unpatriotic and given the Max Cleland treatment. Either way, it was criminally negligent.

What difference does it make that Kerry "didn't have a better plan." Without brain reduction surgery, he could not have come up with a worse one than "stay the course" no matter where the course might lead.

Jesus, people, a lab rat forced to learn a maze can change course to save its life.

A rat or a human being who proves that he's either incapable or unwilling to learn from new evidence and adapt his behavior accordingly is considered the opposite of smart.

There was no lack of evidence that Dick Cheney is a scheming powermonger and George W. Bush is his puppet. For the first time in history, more than one of a president's close advisors wrote books during his term in office, to warn us of what was going on inside. For once, there were cabinet meeting transcripts and e-mails and White House memos and multiple sources for anecdotal evidence.

At risk to themselves and their families, more than one lifelong Republican party loyalist published the truth. The Bush voter response has been a knee-jerk assumption that these people were motivated by money. Even that assumption is refuted by the evidence. As Paul O'Neill told his publisher, "I'm old and rich and they can't do a thing to me."

It's one thing to ignore Michael Moore because he represents the opposition. It's another to hide from evidence presented by people within your own party, out of laziness or stubbornness or fear of the truth. "Willful ignorance" is how Richard Clarke described Bush/Cheney's insistence that Saddam Hussein could be linked to 9/11. Yesterday marked another victory for willful igorance. The entire Bush presidency has been like a public relations campaign to promote the benefits of knowing as few facts as possible.

If you voted for these people the first time, it's understandable. Not all of us knew that Dick Cheney wanted a return to imperialism, and that he wanted to start in Iraq.

If you voted for them yesterday, after all the lies and screw-ups and stammered denials and arrogant posturing; and if you didn't do it for God or for personal financial gain, there's only one explanation.

You were stupid.

Live with it, as you've forced the rest of us to live with the consequences.