Isn't this interesting?

[Ishmael]

"Sharper Brains"

Ishmael

 

[Bert Notorius]

All through elementary school, my report card always said "bert" seems to be experiencing a touch of spring fever...

 

[semen4her]

Strong working memory is essential in school.

Kids with weak working memory, like bert, do poorly in a classroom environment.

My guess is that Bert was a Ritalin baby.

 

[Saint Peter]

I know. You are really smart.

Just put the fucking phone away while you are driving.

 

[NewEnglandGirl]

I dunno that I agree with their premise leading to their conclusion. It seems to read more that when someone is engaged in a somewhat mindless task, the person can think about other, more complex, thoughts. Yeah, that takes a certain level of intelligence... but not all that much. It actually involves different parts of our brains. Sort of like walking and chewing gum? Then again... my ex-husband was an intelligent man, but he literally could not walk and talk simultaneously: His mouth would open, and his feet would stop. It was both hilarious and endlessly frustrating.

 

[justuandmekiddo]

I wish someone would have told the nuns about this discovery back when I was in grade school.

 

[garbage can]

I wish someone would have told the nuns about this discovery back when I was in grade school.

When I was a child, I asked a nun how long eternity was.

She said... if the earth were made of iron, and every 100 years, a bird flew by and touched it's wing on earth, eventually the earth would wear out.

I never forgot that.

 

[Adre]

Fascinating...zzzzzzz.

 

[shoulderblade]

A study has found that people who appear to be constantly distracted have more “working memory”, giving them the ability to hold a lot of information in their heads and manipulate it mentally

Makes sense to me. The mind is lookig around for food.

The complaint on me in grade School was that I had good stuff but I had to learn to apply myself.

 

[semen4her]

Makes sense to me. The mind is lookig around for food.

The complaint on me in grade School was that I had good stuff but I had to learn to apply myself.

I think that's a standard addition to every boy's report card.

 

[Ishmael]

I dunno that I agree with their premise leading to their conclusion. It seems to read more that when someone is engaged in a somewhat mindless task, the person can think about other, more complex, thoughts. Yeah, that takes a certain level of intelligence... but not all that much. It actually involves different parts of our brains. Sort of like walking and chewing gum? Then again... my ex-husband was an intelligent man, but he literally could not walk and talk simultaneously: His mouth would open, and his feet would stop. It was both hilarious and endlessly frustrating.

I understand where you're coming from on this but the article is a laymans overview and as such is missing substantial detail. The Max Planck Institute is not a schlock organization and you know how the Germans are for detail. Meaning that the published study would be very interesting to peruse.

Regardless, what the article triggered was a question in my mind concerning the epidemic of drugging our school children into compliant little zombies. How many of tomorrows movers, shakers, inventors, etc. minds are we ruining for no other reason than classroom convenience? What is the cause of this recent epidemic? Oh, I know that there are many in the field that say it was always with us, we just didn't diagnose it properly. Which rather than answering a question merely begs another, "How in the hell did we ever make it this far to begin with?"

Throwing out a question for the non-US posters. Is the drugging of school children a rampant epidemic in your country, or is this a US phenomena?

Ishmael

 

[NewEnglandGirl]

I understand where you're coming from on this but the article is a laymans overview and as such is missing substantial detail. The Max Planck Institute is not a schlock organization and you know how the Germans are for detail. Meaning that the published study would be very interesting to peruse.

Regardless, what the article triggered was a question in my mind concerning the epidemic of drugging our school children into compliant little zombies. How many of tomorrows movers, shakers, inventors, etc. minds are we ruining for no other reason than classroom convenience? What is the cause of this recent epidemic? Oh, I know that there are many in the field that say it was always with us, we just didn't diagnose it properly. Which rather than answering a question merely begs another, "How in the hell did we ever make it this far to begin with?"

Throwing out a question for the non-US posters. Is the drugging of school children a rampant epidemic in your country, or is this a US phenomena?

Ishmael

Yes, you are quite right, and it deserves less flippancy, as such.

My opinion, fwiw. No, it hasn't always been with us. Kids used to be boisterous or whatever, and encouraged to "burn off extra energy" in sports, before gym budgets disappeared. Not to sound all conspiracy theorist, but I believe there is a definite tie-in with the pharmaceutical industry. Yeah, it makes kids more compliant so you can pack more into the classroom like sardines and spend less on teacher salaries.... But the childrens' mind drugs are a multiple billion dollar industry.

It would be interesting to learn if this as epidemic in other countries.

 

[shoulderblade]

Throwing out a question for the non-US posters. Is the drugging of school children a rampant epidemic in your country, or is this a US phenomena?

I think there is some use of medications here but I would hardly call it rampant. I assume you are referring to medications like Ritalin when you refer to drugged.

The idea is that some children, mostly boys, cannot concentrate well and may be disruptive so the medication is supposed to enhance their ability to focus. It is generally considered a strategy of last resort.

A factor here , I believe, is that in Canada Big Pharma is not allowed to either sell or advertise its products. Drugs are made by domestic generic companies and their use eventually becomes a public expense. This puts a damper on drug use I think.

 

[Ishmael]

Yes, you are quite right, and it deserves less flippancy, as such.

My opinion, fwiw. No, it hasn't always been with us. Kids used to be boisterous or whatever, and encouraged to "burn off extra energy" in sports, before gym budgets disappeared. Not to sound all conspiracy theorist, but I believe there is a definite tie-in with the pharmaceutical industry. Yeah, it makes kids more compliant so you can pack more into the classroom like sardines and spend less on teacher salaries.... But the childrens' mind drugs are a multiple billion dollar industry.

It would be interesting to learn if this as epidemic in other countries.

I think there is some use of medications here but I would hardly call it rampant. I assume you are referring to medications like Ritalin when you refer to drugged.

The idea is that some children, mostly boys, cannot concentrate well and may be disruptive so the medication is supposed to enhance their ability to focus. It is generally considered a strategy of last resort.

A factor here , I believe, is that in Canada Big Pharma is not allowed to either sell or advertise its products. Drugs are made by domestic generic companies and their use eventually becomes a public expense. This puts a damper on drug use I think.

As the both answers above are related I'll respond to both here.

I don't think the big pharma is the primary culprit here. Ritalin is indeed the drug of choice but Ritalin has been around since 1944. It was generic before we thought up the term generic and big pharma makes no money to speak up off of old, easy to manufacture, drugs. If there were an endless cycle of 'new and improved' Ritalin like new product being churned out I'd be forced to agree with both of you. (And there are some new products appearing, but they seem to be an "also fit" as opposed to purposely targeted.) And there are no ads boasting as how their particular drug does a better job zombieing your child than the 'other' brand. So I'm of the mind that big pharma is not part of this particular epidemic.

Addressing NEG's comment re. teacher's salary's. Regardless of where you come down on the issue of teacher pay I can't seem to tie that in with drugging the kids. Is there some unspoken conspiracy promulgated by the teachers unions that if only they're paid more they'll stop recommending that the kids be drugged? If so I'd say that that is cause to de-certify the union and fire the teachers.

As far as class size goes the avg. while I was attending public school was easily 10/class and from 2nd grade on there was only one teacher/classroom. Once in High School the numbers dropped in the science and math classes. (By the time I got to trig., spherical trig., and calculus it was damn near one on one tutoring.) So even class size, in my opinion, can't account for the epidemic.

And thanks for the feedback from Canada, I'm fairly certain this is a US phenomena.

Ishmael

 

[sigh]

It's not exactly the same, but the whole idea of "curing autism" worries me too, like we have to fix all the broken brains. But if we succeed, what have we lost?

That said, my kid is on drugs, and I've got the bruises to prove that he needs them. Without drugs he'd be in an institution. A couple of times he nearly got there anyway. We're not looking for a cure, just a tad more control.

But yeah, Ish. You know I agree that we use too damn many drugs in this country. Of all kinds. But these are particularly worrisome.

But no, Ish. I don't agree that the pharmaceutical companies have little part to play in this. You mention Ritalin, and yes the generic is cheap, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. Our kids are on Zoloft and Risperdal and Zyprexa and Buspar and Abilify and my god, you have no idea how many more, and yes indeed there's a very tidy profit to be made by the makers of those drugs from targeting the brain chemistry of the very young.

 

[Ishmael]

It's not exactly the same, but the whole idea of "curing autism" worries me too, like we have to fix all the broken brains. But if we succeed, what have we lost?

That said, my kid is on drugs, and I've got the bruises to prove that he needs them. Without drugs he'd be in an institution. A couple of times he nearly got there anyway. We're not looking for a cure, just a tad more control.

But yeah, Ish. You know I agree that we use too damn many drugs in this country. Of all kinds. But these are particularly worrisome.

But no, Ish. I don't agree that the pharmaceutical companies have little part to play in this. You mention Ritalin, and yes the generic is cheap, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. Our kids are on Zoloft and Risperdal and Zyprexa and Buspar and Abilify and my god, you have no idea how many more, and yes indeed there's a very tidy profit to be made by the makers of those drugs from targeting the brain chemistry of the very young.

Well yes little mother of my unborn child, I do have a clue. Not as intimately as you, but a clue none-the-less.

And you are also aware of how far back this concern of mine goes. How many of the school shootings have been associated with the administration of psychotropics?

I read an article recently as to how easy it is for the schools/doctors, etc. to induce parents to put their child on a regimen of drugs. It relieves them, and the schools, of having to take responsibility for a child's poor performance. And, by the way, it also relieves the child of that same responsibility.

I'll give big pharma a role in this, but not a leading role.

I'd like to see a study someday of the ratio of children on psychotropics in urban, suburban, and rural communities. I have a gut feeling that there may be an eye opener there.

Ishmael

 

[shoulderblade]

I don't think the big pharma is the primary culprit here. Ritalin is indeed the drug of choice but Ritalin has been around since 1944. It was generic before we thought up the term generic and big pharma makes no money to speak up off of old, easy to manufacture, drugs.

Would agree there but as a generality Drug companies have a Social profile in the US that they don't have elsewhere. I believe that only the US and NZ allow advertising of prescription drugs in Canada the producers are invisible, non players so to speak. I don't think having Drug companies as participants, let alone their profit margins, helps much in creating a cautious, respectful attitude towards drugs.

Addressing NEG's comment re. teacher's salary's. Regardless of where you come down on the issue of teacher pay I can't seem to tie that in with drugging the kids.

I think she has a point here. If you don't offer good pay, pensions, working conditions, public respect etc. you will not attract good quality people to the profession. In Canada Teaching is an elite position pay wise etc. and I think the Public systems work quite well. Having very few private schools is also useful though even if you sent your child to one you still have to pay public taxes.

 

[Ishmael]

Would agree there but as a generality Drug companies have a Social profile in the US that they don't have elsewhere. I believe that only the US and NZ allow advertising of prescription drugs in Canada the producers are invisible, non players so to speak. I don't think having Drug companies as participants, let alone their profit margins, helps much in creating a cautious, respectful attitude towards drugs.



I think she has a point here. If you don't offer good pay, pensions, working conditions, public respect etc. you will not attract good quality people to the profession. In Canada Teaching is an elite position pay wise etc. and I think the Public systems work quite well. Having very few private schools is also useful though even if you sent your child to one you still have to pay public taxes.

Meaning that drugs have become the escape of choice. On that point I have to agree.

I don't agree at all. In this country teachers are those that could not make it through college in any other degree path. That is the fact. They, as a group, have the lowest SAT scores and lowest GRE scores of ANY 4 year degree groups. Demand that that bar be raised and I'll agree to higher salaries. But what is also a fact of the matter here is that they choose the carreer path and one does NOT go to their employer and say, "If you give me more money, I'll do a better job." At least not unless you want to find yourself unemployed.

Teachers are NOT elite. For the most part they are barely adequate drones and under our particular system there is no way to reward those that are truly exceptional. The unions have made sure of that.

But to draw a line directly from teacher compensation to prescribing drugs for the children is a stretch.

I will give you this, if we were to raise the educational bar for teachers to the same level as other professionals AND compensate those that achieve that bar we might be on our way to solving part of the problem. I would also submit that exceptional teachers should deserve exceptional reward. But that would require that the teachers unions be partially, if not totally, disenfranchised, and the unions are NOT going to allow that.

What I will not agree to is that by somehow paying those that are part of the current system more we will be rewarded with better results. There is no evidence, and has been no evidence historically, that that is the result we'll see.

To reiterate, I do agree that in order to attract a higher quality candidate you have to offer a higher level of compensation. The other side of that coin is that there must also be a demand for higher quality candidates, ie. a more stringent course of education requiring a higher entrance score to qualify. You can not have one without the other unless you are hell bent for leather determined to piss your money away.

Ishmael

 

[fair_warning]

"Sharper Brains"

Ishmael

Agree.Totally.

 

[NewEnglandGirl]

It's not exactly the same, but the whole idea of "curing autism" worries me too, like we have to fix all the broken brains. But if we succeed, what have we lost?

That said, my kid is on drugs, and I've got the bruises to prove that he needs them. Without drugs he'd be in an institution. A couple of times he nearly got there anyway. We're not looking for a cure, just a tad more control.

But yeah, Ish. You know I agree that we use too damn many drugs in this country. Of all kinds. But these are particularly worrisome.

But no, Ish. I don't agree that the pharmaceutical companies have little part to play in this. You mention Ritalin, and yes the generic is cheap, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. Our kids are on Zoloft and Risperdal and Zyprexa and Buspar and Abilify and my god, you have no idea how many more, and yes indeed there's a very tidy profit to be made by the makers of those drugs from targeting the brain chemistry of the very young.

Absolutely, every single word of this. To believe that ADHD is the only thing our kids are being medicated for is to be hiding your head in the sand. Yes, some kids do have legitimate need for medication. But where the DSM now includes diagnoses such as "oppositional defiance disorder" which are being used as justification for what amounts to pretty much forced medicating - they talk back? oh noes! - our kids are being drugged way too much.

I don't agree at all. In this country teachers are those that could not make it through college in any other degree path. That is the fact. They, as a group, have the lowest SAT scores and lowest GRE scores of ANY 4 year degree groups. Demand that that bar be raised and I'll agree to higher salaries. But what is also a fact of the matter here is that they choose the carreer path and one does NOT go to their employer and say, "If you give me more money, I'll do a better job." At least not unless you want to find yourself unemployed.

Teachers are NOT elite. For the most part they are barely adequate drones and under our particular system there is no way to reward those that are truly exceptional. The unions have made sure of that.

Ishmael

This is utter bunk. The ability to teach is every bit as much a gift as mathematics or engineering or ballet. And takes every bit as much dedication, if not more.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

...
This is utter bunk. The ability to teach is every bit as much a gift as mathematics or engineering or ballet. And takes every bit as much dedication, if not more.

That's not what he is saying.

We might be better served if we were paying attention to people with the gift of teaching but what we end up with are the dregs of the University system, people who gravitated to teaching because everything else was too hard or "not their thing."



There are plenty of people with the gift of teaching and who have real world work experience but are not allowed to teach because they don't have a "teaching" degree which is really a proclamation of having absorbed the Socialist curriculum of communal duty and sacrifice to others with nary a peep or question...

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

In thirty years of actually teaching, I learned to quickly identify which students of mine would go on to be teachers and cops...


They were invariably those in the third quartile.

 

[Saint Peter]

That's not what he is saying.

We might be better served if we were paying attention to people with the gift of teaching but what we end up with are the dregs of the University system, people who gravitated to teaching because everything else was too hard or "not their thing."



There are plenty of people with the gift of teaching and who have real world work experience but are not allowed to teach because they don't have a "teaching" degree which is really a proclamation of having absorbed the Socialist curriculum of communal duty and sacrifice to others with nary a peep or question...

Many times it is just the opposite. Denver allows "professionals" to teach. Many of them know the subject matter but do not understand how to teach. A trained educator not only knows the topic but knows how to get that topic to the student in the most efficient way.

 

[Saint Peter]

Pussy!

 

[NewEnglandGirl]

That's not what he is saying.

We might be better served if we were paying attention to people with the gift of teaching but what we end up with are the dregs of the University system, people who gravitated to teaching because everything else was too hard or "not their thing."



There are plenty of people with the gift of teaching and who have real world work experience but are not allowed to teach because they don't have a "teaching" degree which is really a proclamation of having absorbed the Socialist curriculum of communal duty and sacrifice to others with nary a peep or question...

No, Ish pretty much labeled teachers as the lowest of the graduating class, with his comments about GPAs and so forth. And you are saying much the same. I am telling you that you are both quite incorrect. It may have been true back in the days of the draft, as a way to avoid 'Nam, but it's not been true since then.

To address your second point: In MA there is such a severe shortage of math, science, engineering teachers that professionals are being pretty much begged to go into teaching, with or without teaching degrees. It's called the STEM project, and the focus on bringing our kids up to internationally competitive levels goes all the way down to K-12. If anything, I worry about other subjects and the lower and lower amounts of attention and money they receive. What is to become of history, English, etc? Our students need to be better rounded individuals than what current focus will allow for. Not that STEM isn't vitally needed, but don't neglect the rest of the curricula.

Many times it is just the opposite. Denver allows "professionals" to teach. Many of them know the subject matter but do not understand how to teach. A trained educator not only knows the topic but knows how to get that topic to the student in the most efficient way.

This. Although I am not involved in the school system right now, I can speak to this problem at college and grad school level, having a newly minted M.S. in my house. If anything, the problem was worse for him than it was for me, so many years ago.