Islamic & Christian Fundamentalism--What's the difference?

[richard_daily]

Right...and what about that system is capitalism?

It's not capitalist.

It's a corporate oligarchy, corporate feudalism.

If we had capitalism we wouldn't be shooting people for sharing milk/eggs/veggies without going through permitted government facilities first (gov and WholePaycheck Foods getting their piece of the action) and SWAT teaming lemonade stands, food trucks, pool cleaners and lawn boys.

This is the system that capitalism created. Unfettered, free-market capitalism has created what we have today (and both Clintons as well, ironically enough).

Capitalists don't hate regulation. They enjoy it, because it creates barriers to entry for competition. Once a corporation is established, they do their best to keep all encroachment away from their business. Laws are one way this is done.

Let's take one of your imaginary examples: A lemonade refinery doesn't want the lemonade stand in business.

So what do they do? They pay politicians (either directly by campaign donation, through lobbyists, or indirectly through super PACs) to create laws that help them, and hurt their competition. That's how our country has devolved and how laws are made in this day and age. Lobbyists are the only thing that gets heard anymore by our elected officials, and lobbyists cost a lot of money.

This IS capitalism at work.

That's why no bankers have been jailed for the 2008 meltdown.

 

[MichaelinChina]

deleted...realised I was aiding and abetting the thread hijack

 

[eyerami]

deleted...realised I was aiding and abetting the thread hijack

You aid or abet anything?

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/roflmao.gif

In your dreams, you sniveling little commie bootlicker.

 

[BotanyBoy]

This is the system that capitalism created. Unfettered, free-market capitalism has created what we have today (and both Clintons as well, ironically enough).

True, I'm not arguing that.

But it is no longer capitalism.

I will say however unfettered free-market capitalism is some good shit, until it's allowed to start buying government officials. That's when keeping it real goes wrong.

Now on both sides of the isle we regulate just for the sake of regulating....just to make sure poor people have no chance of doing better for themselves.

Capitalists don't hate regulation. They enjoy it, because it creates barriers to entry for competition. Once a corporation is established, they do their best to keep all encroachment away from their business. Laws are one way this is done.

Right, and I never said they don't like regulation.

What I am saying is that the MOMENT they start using the government to do that they cease to be capitalist and at that point in time become an oligarch, a plutocrat specifically.

Obtaining the power of government through wealth.....it's not capitalism.

Let's take one of your imaginary examples: A lemonade refinery doesn't want the lemonade stand in business.

So what do they do? They pay politicians (either directly by campaign donation, through lobbyists, or indirectly through super PACs) to create laws that help them, and hurt their competition. That's how our country has devolved and how laws are made in this day and age. Lobbyists are the only thing that gets heard anymore by our elected officials, and lobbyists cost a lot of money.

This IS capitalism at work.

That's why no bankers have been jailed for the 2008 meltdown.

That is not capitalism under even the most remote definition of the term, that is a corporate oligarchy and they are not the same thing.

IF we put regulations in place to separate big money from big government we just might have capitalism again.

But when the two start jerking each other off you either get socialism or corporate feudalism depending on who's tha bauss and who's tha underbauss.

 

[Ishmael]

This is the system that capitalism created. Unfettered, free-market capitalism has created what we have today (and both Clintons as well, ironically enough).

Capitalists don't hate regulation. They enjoy it, because it creates barriers to entry for competition. Once a corporation is established, they do their best to keep all encroachment away from their business. Laws are one way this is done.

Let's take one of your imaginary examples: A lemonade refinery doesn't want the lemonade stand in business.

So what do they do? They pay politicians (either directly by campaign donation, through lobbyists, or indirectly through super PACs) to create laws that help them, and hurt their competition. That's how our country has devolved and how laws are made in this day and age. Lobbyists are the only thing that gets heard anymore by our elected officials, and lobbyists cost a lot of money.

This IS capitalism at work.

That's why no bankers have been jailed for the 2008 meltdown.

RD is spot on here. Fully 90% of the laws and regulations on the books, State, Federal, and local, are 'protectionist' in nature. They were lobbied for by various special interest groups to restrict competition in their particular area of business operations. They all are called 'consumer protection' laws because, well, because you, the consumer, are too God damned stupid to take care of your own business interests. And you, the consumer, swallow that line of horse shit because, well, for the most part, they're right, you ARE too God damned stupid. So you promote the state, guided by these special interests, to be your mommy and daddy. Making you, to use a kind phrase, a dependent. Slave would be the less gentle term.

The Clinton's don't give a shit about you. They long ago sold their soul to these special interest groups in order to enrich and gain power for themselves.

They all represent what 'capitalism' has morphed into. Capitalism isn't the problem, you are. The sons and daughters of once free men who are too God damned stupid, or lazy, to manage your own affairs. When you have ceded enough of your ability to make choices to the state and the special interests behind that state then you can well and truly be called 'wards of the state.' And it was all accomplished without having to build an institution to keep you behind the walls of.

Ishmael

 

[underguy1]

Really? Then tell me what socialism is....

Last I checked it was government control over the means of production/sales/exchange of goods and services according to every credible source out there.

Care to link something stating otherwise?



That's because there is no such thing as pure freedom, but there can be freedom from government control, and those have, can and do exist and they do VERY well.

We call them black markets because the governments don't like what they can't control....that's the real brain job right there. That freedom from government is 'black' labeled as crime.

That's just superficial and wrong. Socialists believe in labour control over their own means of production.

 

[BotanyBoy]

That's just superficial and wrong.

If it's wrong then you should be able to point to at least ONE example otherwise?

Where is this Libertarian utopia you speak of where labor is in control and not the government??

Socialists believe in labour control over their own means of production.

Bullshit, labor being in control over their own means of production it's called capitalism.

When you get to produce, sell and earn profit (labor in control) without government regulation (government in control) that's called the free market....capitalism.

Here educate yourself.

Full Definition of capitalism
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism

Full Definition of socialism
1
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2
a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3
: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

 

[MichaelinChina]

You aid or abet anything?



In your dreams, you sniveling little commie bootlicker.

That was a total waste of space and effort wasn't it dear?

 

[RoryN]

You're all crazy. - Atheists

You're going to hell. - Christians

Are you going to hell? - Atheists

No. - Christians

Then sign me the fuck up. - Atheists

 

[MichaelinChina]

You're all crazy. - Fundamentalist Christians

You're going to hell. - Fundamentalist Muslims

Are you going to hell? - Fundamentalist Christians

No. -Fundamentalist Muslims

Then sign me the fuck up. - Fundamentalist Christians

__________________

 

[underguy1]

If it's wrong then you should be able to point to at least ONE example otherwise?

Where is this Libertarian utopia you speak of where labor is in control and not the government??



Bullshit, labor being in control over their own means of production it's called capitalism.

When you get to produce, sell and earn profit (labor in control) without government regulation (government in control) that's called the free market....capitalism.

Here educate yourself.

Full Definition of capitalism
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism

Full Definition of socialism
1
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2
a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3
: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

I can't be bothered arguing with someone with such superficial understanding.

I don't care what your American dictionary says.

You need to read your Orwell regarding language. And Marx on the political economics of capitalism.

You are living in a late stage finance capitalist society. It is working for the capitalists and not for many others.

Your misunderstanding of the language appears to preclude you from the realisation.

Those rich fuckers ARE the capitalist class. And unless you are one of them, you are not a capitalist. You are labour.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I can't be bothered arguing with someone with such superficial understanding.

Why don't you try using facts instead of insults??

You are living in a late stage finance capitalist society. It is working for the capitalists and not for many others.

Yes, and now it's no longer capitalist, it's a plutarchy, a form of oligarchy.

Near absolute government control over markets = NOT CAPITALISM

Rich people do not = capitalist when they obtain their riches via GOVERNMENT FORCE.

Those rich fuckers ARE the capitalist class.

No, they are plutocrats.

There is a distinct difference no matter how badly you wish there wasn't.

And unless you are one of them, you are not a capitalist. You are labour.

Nobody in the USA is a capitalist and there is no capitalism in the USA. You simply can't go out here and start selling products/services.

We SWAT team old ladies, shoot farmers and put people including kids in PRISON for that.

That's NOT capitalism under any definition of the term.

 

[underguy1]

Why don't you try using facts instead of insults??



Yes, and now it's no longer capitalist, it's a plutarchy, a form of oligarchy.

Near absolute government control over markets = NOT CAPITALISM

Rich people do not = capitalist when they obtain their riches via GOVERNMENT FORCE.



No, they are plutocrats.

There is a distinct difference no matter how badly you wish there wasn't.



Nobody in the USA is a capitalist and there is no capitalism in the USA. You simply can't go out here and start selling products/services.

We SWAT team old ladies, shoot farmers and put people including kids in PRISON for that.

That's NOT capitalism under any definition of the term.

You don't have government control over markets. You have capitalist control over government, you fool.

A very very very rich capitalist is an oligarch.

They don't just stop being capitalists.

It's all in the name. It's capitalism.

It isn't "commerce" or "trade". It's capitalism. Those with capital have the control.

The longer it goes on the less of them have the capital. That's the maths of it.

 

[underguy1]

D

Rich people do not = capitalist when they obtain their riches via GOVERNMENT FORCE.

)

This is clearly a libertoonian catch phrase. It is devoid of logic and means nothing but is effective on the gullible.

Libertarians, useful idiots of the big money class.

 

[BotanyBoy]

You don't have government control over markets.

You've clearly never tried to do business in or with the USA then and don't have the slightest clue about how the US operates.

You have capitalist control over government, you fool.

That's called a a plutarchy, a form of oligarchy, not capitalism.

A very very very rich capitalist is an oligarch.

They don't just stop being capitalists.

No a capitalist who uses their riches to obtain force of government is an oligarch.

When they use the force of government they stop being capitalist and start being plutocrats.

It's all in the name. It's capitalism.

It isn't "commerce" or "trade". It's capitalism. Those with capital have the control.

No it's all in the definitions which you're clearly quite ignorant of.

The longer it goes on the less of them have the capital. That's the maths of it.

Only when the government steps in and uses force of law to either protect or enable their market mongering.

 

[BotanyBoy]

This is clearly a libertoonian catch phrase. It is devoid of logic and means nothing but is effective on the gullible.

Libertarians, useful idiots of the big money class.

No that's the difference between a capitalist and a plutocrat.

Words mean things, I'm sorry that butthurts your little rant that's supported by insults instead of facts but that's the way it is.

I'm not a libertarian....I just don't try to confuse terms like you do in order to demonize capitalism.

 

[underguy1]

I've spent more time on this than any libertarian deserves.

There's something wrong in libertarians' wiring.

Nearly all of you are right wing authoritarian personality types.

Which makes all the LIBERDEEE!!!! shit somewhat ironic.

 

[underguy1]

No that's the difference between a capitalist and a plutocrat.

Words mean things, I'm sorry that butthurts your little rant that's supported by insults instead of facts but that's the way it is.

I'm not a libertarian....I just don't try to confuse terms like you do in order to demonize capitalism.

How ironic.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I've spent more time on this than any libertarian deserves.

There's something wrong in libertarians' wiring.

Nearly all of you are right wing authoritarian personality types.

Which makes all the LIBERDEEE!!!! shit somewhat ironic.

LOL I'm not libertarian because I understand the difference between capitalism and an oligarchy.

But keep labeling me as such to avoid the fact that you don't have an argument, just name calling.

Also libertarians are about as far from authoritarian as it gets before you hit anarchist. I suppose that's another on the pile of terms you haven't got a clue about.

How ironic.

Another term you clearly don't know how to use.

 

[underguy1]

LOL I'm not libertarian because I understand the difference between capitalism and an oligarchy.

But keep labeling me as such to avoid the fact that you don't have an argument, just name calling.

Also libertarians are about as far from authoritarian as it gets before you hit anarchist. I suppose that's another on the pile of terms you haven't got a clue about.



Another term you clearly don't know how to use.

Sure you're not.

The American version of 'libertarians' (or are you calling yourselves anarcho-capitalists now LOL) are about as far from anarchism as one can imagine.

Your Humpty Dumpty speak doesn't amuse me or impress me. It just makes conversation impossible.

And that's how the rich people that fund your movement like it.

They can't have you thinking clearly and figuring out that they're the ones fucking you.

 

[underguy1]

LOL I'm not libertarian because I understand the difference between capitalism and an oligarchy.

But keep labeling me as such to avoid the fact that you don't have an argument, just name calling.

Also libertarians are about as far from authoritarian as it gets before you hit anarchist. I suppose that's another on the pile of terms you haven't got a clue about.



Another term you clearly don't know how to use.

The rest of the English speaking world laughs/cringes at Americans misusing the word 'irony'.

I use it correctly.

 

[MichaelinChina]

Botany Boy says:


Yes, and now it's no longer capitalist, it's a plutarchy, a form of oligarchy.



So, if you say it's no longer capitalist, then your economy has reached what Marx predicted, the breakdown of capitalism as a result of series of crises.



Inequality which is the social basis of capitalism. Inequality has to be created for the system to function.

Marx's prediction seems to be coming true in USA.

Plutarchy and oligarchies are not the final stages of capitalism although the accumulation of capital becomes an end in itself...true by this class of people.

Socialism is inevitable guys! Get used to it.

 

[MichaelinChina]

The rest of the English speaking world laughs/cringes at Americans misusing the word 'irony'.

I use it correctly.

lol..Americans would not know irony if it jumped up and bit them on the arse! (not ass)

 

[BotanyBoy]

Sure you're not.

I'm not, very few of my beliefs are actually in line with their views.

The American version of 'libertarians' (or are you calling yourselves anarcho-capitalists now LOL) are about as far from anarchism as one can imagine.

How so? (I'm expecting nothing but name calling/deflection)

And that's how the rich people that fund your movement like it.

They can't have you thinking clearly and figuring out that they're the ones fucking you.

What movement am I part of?

They aren't fucking me, I'm doing the fucking of poor people.

The rest of the English speaking world laughs/cringes at Americans misusing the word 'irony'.

That's cute, but doesn't mean shit.

 

[BotanyBoy]

So, if you say it's no longer capitalist, then your economy has reached what Marx predicted, the breakdown of capitalism as a result of series of crises.

Yes.

Inequality which is the social basis of capitalism. Inequality has to be created for the system to function.

It doesn't have to be created, it's naturally occurring.

Marx's prediction seems to be coming true in USA.

Pretty damn close......