Is "Switch" The Most Self-Aware Label?

[Lancecastor]

Here's a thought that has crossed my mind a few times recently while reading posts here and there....it goes like this:

I've noticed a female D or two suggest that male D's secretly wish to have a Femme D strap one on and fumbuck them until they're whimpering like little grrls.

(I've been of course immediately tempted to suggest that if a LesDomme says that all HetDoms want it up the ass....it can be assumed that LesDommes would love a good rear-door rogering from a straightDom...but I think this place might just melt from the spitting if I did. Ooops.)

And I've noticed more than a few posts in which Subs wonder out loud about being a Dom(me) for a day.

And I believe that people generally will often blow the hardest about that thing they fear or wonder about the most...projection and passive aggression, for example, can be wonderful examples of the pot calling the kettle black.

With these things in mind.....I'm wondering if the "healthiest", most self-aware "label" in the BDSM realm might be that of "Switch".

Thoughts?



Lance

 

[James Blandings]

I think there are several factors at work here, and I don't know how they might rank in importance, but I do have a few observations.

First of all, I think it's sort of natural to wonder how it feels to be on the other side, and therefore not unexpected that many people who normally identify with one side of the coin want to occasionally experience the other.
I also think that there is a certain aspect in the way BDSM is often depicted that eroticizes being a bottom or sub more than being a top or Dom, and some people may be confused between the overall eroticism of the scene, and their particular identification with one role or the other. This I think can often make people, and especially women, think they ought to be subs when that's not really their natural inclination.

Add to this the fact that in recent years a strong prejudice against switching has gained currency in BDSM. Personally, I think the anti-switch prejudice hatched out of chatrooms, where BDSM identity is too often reduced to shorthand and the complexity of switching was not easily projected (And if you are a switch on AOL, why not just have a dom name and a sub name, and avoid confusion?)

I have known a number of submissives who will not even consider entering into a relationship with a switch because they think anyone who is not Dom all the time is just not Dom enough. This is a canard. When I am in a relationship in which I am Dom, I exercise all that being Dom includes as well as the next person, and when I am being a submissive, I am a damn good submissive. In a way, I think this illustrates the grain of truth in your contention, in that my relationship status is determined by my specific attitude towards the individual partner, and is in some ways perhaps requires more self awareness than it might otherwise.

 

[Lancecastor]

Would it follow....

I think there are several factors at work here, and I don't know how they might rank in importance, but I do have a few observations.

First of all, I think it's sort of natural to wonder how it feels to be on the other side, and therefore not unexpected that many people who normally identify with one side of the coin want to occasionally experience the other.
I also think that there is a certain aspect in the way BDSM is often depicted that eroticizes being a bottom or sub more than being a top or Dom, and some people may be confused between the overall eroticism of the scene, and their particular identification with one role or the other. This I think can often make people, and especially women, think they ought to be subs when that's not really their natural inclination.

Add to this the fact that in recent years a strong prejudice against switching has gained currency in BDSM. Personally, I think the anti-switch prejudice hatched out of chatrooms, where BDSM identity is too often reduced to shorthand and the complexity of switching was not easily projected (And if you are a switch on AOL, why not just have a dom name and a sub name, and avoid confusion?)

I have known a number of submissives who will not even consider entering into a relationship with a switch because they think anyone who is not Dom all the time is just not Dom enough. This is a canard. When I am in a relationship in which I am Dom, I exercise all that being Dom includes as well as the next person, and when I am being a submissive, I am a damn good submissive. In a way, I think this illustrates the grain of truth in your contention, in that my relationship status is determined by my specific attitude towards the individual partner, and is in some ways perhaps requires more self awareness than it might otherwise.

....that the most self-aware people would be bi-sexual switches then?

I've heard people express sexuality as a continuum....with, as you noted, normal curiosity about a variety of roles.

Some merely think about the range of roles, fantasize about them, act upon them once, a few times, occasionally, always.....we are all subject to be somewhere along the range of possibilities.

I wonder then if it matters whether you think about somethiong versus living it openly, for example...is one really any different than the other in terms of self-awareness?

I, for example, sometimes look down my nose at those who only experience BDSM online and never skin to skin....but does it really matter if you're 24/7 or a wannabe, really?

After all, isn't BDSM mostly about what goes on in our heads?

Hmmmm....
Lance

 

[James Blandings]

Re: Would it follow....

....that the most self-aware people would be bi-sexual switches then?

I've heard people express sexuality as a continuum....with, as you noted, normal curiosity about a variety of roles.

Some merely think about the range of roles, fantasize about them, act upon them once, a few times, occasionally, always.....we are all subject to be somewhere along the range of possibilities.

I wonder then if it matters whether you think about somethiong versus living it openly, for example...is one really any different than the other in terms of self-awareness?

I, for example, sometimes look down my nose at those who only experience BDSM online and never skin to skin....but does it really matter if you're 24/7 or a wannabe, really?

After all, isn't BDSM mostly about what goes on in our heads?

Hmmmm....
Lance

I would not say that bisexual switches are more self aware than other people overall, but that in the particulars of choosing sexual or BDSM play partners they have more things to consider than others do, and in that sense, they need to maintain another level of self examination that is not needed by those who are choosing on a narrower spectrum.
As for the issue of fantasy versus reality, I have no problem with someone who has a rich BDSM fantasy life considering themselves to be as into BDSM as those who practice it in reality, as long as they are honest as to their actual knowledge and skills and do not , for example, come on to a message board and spout out cockamamie ideas about BDSM that have been tested nowhere but in their own heads.
Look at it this way, if two people tell me they are "into baseball" and I come to find out that one is in a fantasy league and the other one is Sammy Sosa, I can respect both of them for their experience and knowledge, but I will not regard their participation in the game as being equivalent.

 

[cymbidia]

Re: Would it follow....

....that the most self-aware people would be bi-sexual switches then?
<snip>
After all, isn't BDSM mostly about what goes on in our heads?

1. No. Not necessarily. I'm at least as self-aware as anyone else around i think, and moreso than many, and i'm definitely way over on the sub side, though bisexual, yes.

2. The marks on my breasts that are throbbing and pulsing as i type these words claim otherwise, Lance. They claim, with heat and the flush of tonight's hours of really hard play behind them, that it's the intersection of the intellectual, emotional, and physical that comprises BDSM - at least in my life. It may be different for you.

 

[SierraMoon]

excellent point, James

I have known a number of submissives who will not even consider entering into a relationship with a switch because they think anyone who is not Dom all the time is just not Dom enough. This is a canard. When I am in a relationship in which I am Dom, I exercise all that being Dom includes as well as the next person, and when I am being a submissive, I am a damn good submissive. In a way, I think this illustrates the grain of truth in your contention, in that my relationship status is determined by my specific attitude towards the individual partner, and is in some ways perhaps requires more self awareness than it might otherwise.

my Dom is a switch, and do i think any less of him, as a Dom, because he is submissive at times? not at all.... he is what he is... i actually appreciate his submissiveness, because he knows what it's like to be on my side of the chosen implement, therefor, i believe he brings alot of knowledge to our sessions... which is very important to me, being very new to all of these sensations... he talks openly and honestly with me about things that have been done to him, and i appreciate his ability to share his experiences with me...

edited to add subject line, so that James would know that i am with him on this one... wasn't attacking his post....

 

[Never]

Lancecaster:
" (I've been of course immediately tempted to suggest that if a LesDomme says that all HetDoms want it up the ass....it can be assumed that LesDommes would love a good rear-door rogering from a straightDom...but I think this place might just melt from the spitting if I did. Ooops.)"
Luckly, no lesdomme on this forum has ever suggested any such thing so you've been spared such an inopportune fate.


" Would it follow that the most self-aware people would be bi-sexual switches then?
I'm not following you. (That's not uncommon though. I've figured out that our brains are woven in totally different patterns)
How would a bisexual be more self-aware than a heterosexual?
How would a switch be more self-aware then a sub?

BDSM gives you six labels. I don't think that anyone is 100% of any of those labels. It's up to the individual to discovery where they fall, what makes them unique. I don't see how using the label for the 'center' makes you more self-aware.

 

[Lancecastor]

Re: Re: Would it follow....

2. The marks on my breasts that are throbbing and pulsing as i type these words claim otherwise, Lance. They claim, with heat and the flush of tonight's hours of really hard play behind them, that it's the intersection of the intellectual, emotional, and physical that comprises BDSM - at least in my life. It may be different for you.

My breasts are neither throbbing nor pulsing just now.

As I said earlier, I have always tended to look down my nose at those who "talk" but don't "do"...like the old joke about teachers.

And, like most here, I have a fairly defined, though not static, idea of who I am and what I'm about sexually.

That being said, it seems to me that those who are the least defined might be the most self-aware, in the end.

And no, I don't mean that in a gluteal way.

For if the least defined/labelled are, despite lack of Sammy Sosa moments or throbbing pulsing bits of flesh, the most self-aware....perhaps that supports the contention stated elsewhere that BDSM is really all just fantasy after all.

Dig?

Or should I get a fresh bag of glue?

Lance

 

[Vulpesvulpes]

I have been both a dom and sub during scenes but never either one in a 24/7 situation.

I think, like many of you, that it is a continuum but I have not seen this particular angle addressed.

I like the physical sensations usually available to a sub. ie. wearing nipple clamps, butt plugs, electro-stim, etc. But I still want to be in control of those sensations.

I would not want to surrender that control to a dom. I think then, by definition, I could not be considered a sub.

To me the essence of BDSM is control. I know what I want and how I want it and I am very self-aware. (otherwise, how could I know what I want?)

This is the problem with trying to slap labels on everthing and everyone.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Hmmm

I think that if you are self-aware, you are so because you have done the homework to become so.

It has nothing to do with your sexually, race, ethnic background, sexual preference. It has everything to do with your capacity for self-examination (my opinion, YMMV).

I know why I am not a switch. I also know why I am not bisexual. whether anyone else cares, understands or knows why makes no difference to me. I am self-aware and I know it.

I do not object to other people being switches, bisexual, homosexual, whatever their reality tells them.

I do object to other people telling me what they think I am. Who asked them? I don't. Who cares? I don't. I am gonna be me with or without their sanction(s).

Ebony

 

[Lancecastor]

Agreed

I think that if you are self-aware, you are so because you have done the homework to become so.

It has nothing to do with your sexually, race, ethnic background, sexual preference. It has everything to do with your capacity for self-examination (my opinion, YMMV).

I know why I am not a switch. I also know why I am not bisexual. whether anyone else cares, understands or knows why makes no difference to me. I am self-aware and I know it.

I do not object to other people being switches, bisexual, homosexual, whatever their reality tells them.

I do object to other people telling me what they think I am. Who asked them? I don't. Who cares? I don't. I am gonna be me with or without their sanction(s).

Ebony

Agreed that if you are truly self aware that you know what you like, how you see yourself...and that others won't likely sway you.

At the same time, most people give some degree of thought to other experiences, try on different labels....as in the Domme for a Day thread....so I wonder whether we're all actually poly-everything inside, but simply pick a label or three that "works" for us?

If that's the case....then perhaps a bi-switch would be more in tune with the entirety of themselves than others, relatively speaking.

It's just an academic thought....Me, I know I like a grrl riding the big salmon, so I'm quite settled with my worldview.


LC

 

[Hecate]

Just a little note, before I will share my personaly view:

Wouldn't it be just as right to assume a bi-sexual Switch hasn't any self-awareness at all but is just pushed into any corner that at the moment seems to be most available or convenient?

Not always does what we THINK we are have to be based on us determining it, but on what we are being told/shown.

That said, let me add another line of thought: Do I have to be an actively bi Switch to have reached that point of self - awareness? Or wouldn't it be enough to have gone through the options to , based on own esteem and expereince, then decide they are or are not for me? Do I have to repeat something I tried and didn't like? I do not think so. Nevertheless the "awareness" of my reaction to a certain situation / expereince will be with me, forming me, influencing my view of the world and thus my self perception in it.

I for one like both genders - but I am not saying I do that because I can't make up my mind, and for sure it is not equally interchangeable what I do seek and get from those relations to male or female partners. Had I at some point realized one gender wasn't for me, then fine, but would I then have been less self aware by not repeating something that didn't do anything for me?

I for one have the notion that I want to KNOW what it is like to be on the receiving side of my toys. I do not equally prefer the same toys or techniques when I bottom compared to when I Dominate (and yes, the words were deliberately chosen that way). If I tried something and it isn't for me then I will discard it from my "repeat performance" list. Again, does it teemper or diminish the knowledga about what it did or does for me and this "disappears" from my awareness-profile just becasue I didn't like it ?

I think the "Domme for a day" should be compulsory (I definitely intend to have my darling pet do it, even though I know she won't be liking it much), it opens your eyes to the other side of the fence... but does it make her a Switch? Certainly not. Is it good for self awarenes? maybe...

Do we not always silently, secretly wonder what it is like on the other side of the fence? The greener grass and all .... Even though we may KNOW it is not for us we try to grow and expand our views. And I think little Dominants or submissives, gender aside, have really absolutely never had a go at the other side of the literal whip (for own curiousity or being asked/told to try), it just involves too much enchantment and mystery to not want to know what it feels like for the "other".

I doubt it is the search for another label - it is mere human, bright, intelligent curiousity. That little neat thing that grought us fire, the invention of the wheel and the realization that butt plugs need a wide base to avoid unpleasant disapearance incidents.


Getting back to stereotypes as have been thrown into discussion in the opening post ... there are and always will be those people who do not crave, actually fear to find themselves (and some for good reason if I may say so, like those macho, stunning and intriguing male Dominants who tell me I just need the right Master to make me a whimpering submissive, the ones that tell you that all women secretly want to be raped - geeez, if I were one of those I'd rather not know me either. You will excuse my urge in those cases to give them a taste with an appropriately sized strap-on!)

I definitely don't need any stereotypes or clichees to find my place and label - I actually adore being who and what I am at any given time, free to pick my "spot" in my personal universe. If someone else wants to stick a label on me, fine, but they better be ready to be needing a bunch of them and better not try make any sticky on me too permanent.

The only lable I proudly and continuously wear reads "ME"

 

[Ebonyfire]

Just a little note, before I will share my personaly view:

Wouldn't it be just as right to assume a bi-sexual Switch hasn't any self-awareness at all but is just pushed into any corner that at the moment seems to be most available or convenient?

Not always does what we THINK we are have to be based on us determining it, but on what we are being told/shown.

That said, let me add another line of thought: Do I have to be an actively bi Switch to have reached that point of self - awareness? Or wouldn't it be enough to have gone through the options to , based on own esteem and expereince, then decide they are or are not for me? Do I have to repeat something I tried and didn't like? I do not think so. Nevertheless the "awareness" of my reaction to a certain situation / expereince will be with me, forming me, influencing my view of the world and thus my self perception in it.

I for one like both genders - but I am not saying I do that because I can't make up my mind, and for sure it is not equally interchangeable what I do seek and get from those relations to male or female partners. Had I at some point realized one gender wasn't for me, then fine, but would I then have been less self aware by not repeating something that didn't do anything for me?

I for one have the notion that I want to KNOW what it is like to be on the receiving side of my toys. I do not equally prefer the same toys or techniques when I bottom compared to when I Dominate (and yes, the words were deliberately chosen that way). If I tried something and it isn't for me then I will discard it from my "repeat performance" list. Again, does it teemper or diminish the knowledga about what it did or does for me and this "disappears" from my awareness-profile just becasue I didn't like it ?

I think the "Domme for a day" should be compulsory (I definitely intend to have my darling pet do it, even though I know she won't be liking it much), it opens your eyes to the other side of the fence... but does it make her a Switch? Certainly not. Is it good for self awarenes? maybe...

Do we not always silently, secretly wonder what it is like on the other side of the fence? The greener grass and all .... Even though we may KNOW it is not for us we try to grow and expand our views. And I think little Dominants or submissives, gender aside, have really absolutely never had a go at the other side of the literal whip (for own curiousity or being asked/told to try), it just involves too much enchantment and mystery to not want to know what it feels like for the "other".

I doubt it is the search for another label - it is mere human, bright, intelligent curiousity. That little neat thing that grought us fire, the invention of the wheel and the realization that butt plugs need a wide base to avoid unpleasant disapearance incidents.


Getting back to stereotypes as have been thrown into discussion in the opening post ... there are and always will be those people who do not crave, actually fear to find themselves (and some for good reason if I may say so, like those macho, stunning and intriguing male Dominants who tell me I just need the right Master to make me a whimpering submissive, the ones that tell you that all women secretly want to be raped - geeez, if I were one of those I'd rather not know me either. You will excuse my urge in those cases to give them a taste with an appropriately sized strap-on!)

I definitely don't need any stereotypes or clichees to find my place and label - I actually adore being who and what I am at any given time, free to pick my "spot" in my personal universe. If someone else wants to stick a label on me, fine, but they better be ready to be needing a bunch of them and better not try make any sticky on me too permanent.

The only lable I proudly and continuously wear reads "ME"

Well said, as usual, Hecate!

Ebony

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Agreed

Agreed that if you are truly self aware that you know what you like, how you see yourself...and that others won't likely sway you.

At the same time, most people give some degree of thought to other experiences, try on different labels....as in the Domme for a Day thread....so I wonder whether we're all actually poly-everything inside, but simply pick a label or three that "works" for us?

If that's the case....then perhaps a bi-switch would be more in tune with the entirety of themselves than others, relatively speaking.

It's just an academic thought....Me, I know I like a grrl riding the big salmon, so I'm quite settled with my worldview.LC

The "big salmon?"

hehehe, hahaha, hohoho!!!

Eb <laughing her ass off again!>

 

[Lancecastor]

Good points.

Just a little note, before I will share my personaly view:

Wouldn't it be just as right to assume a bi-sexual Switch hasn't any self-awareness at all but is just pushed into any corner that at the moment seems to be most available or convenient?

Not always does what we THINK we are have to be based on us determining it, but on what we are being told/shown.

That said, let me add another line of thought: Do I have to be an actively bi Switch to have reached that point of self - awareness? Or wouldn't it be enough to have gone through the options to , based on own esteem and expereince, then decide they are or are not for me? Do I have to repeat something I tried and didn't like? I do not think so. Nevertheless the "awareness" of my reaction to a certain situation / expereince will be with me, forming me, influencing my view of the world and thus my self perception in it.

I for one like both genders - but I am not saying I do that because I can't make up my mind, and for sure it is not equally interchangeable what I do seek and get from those relations to male or female partners. Had I at some point realized one gender wasn't for me, then fine, but would I then have been less self aware by not repeating something that didn't do anything for me?

I for one have the notion that I want to KNOW what it is like to be on the receiving side of my toys. I do not equally prefer the same toys or techniques when I bottom compared to when I Dominate (and yes, the words were deliberately chosen that way). If I tried something and it isn't for me then I will discard it from my "repeat performance" list. Again, does it teemper or diminish the knowledga about what it did or does for me and this "disappears" from my awareness-profile just becasue I didn't like it ?

I think the "Domme for a day" should be compulsory (I definitely intend to have my darling pet do it, even though I know she won't be liking it much), it opens your eyes to the other side of the fence... but does it make her a Switch? Certainly not. Is it good for self awarenes? maybe...

Do we not always silently, secretly wonder what it is like on the other side of the fence? The greener grass and all .... Even though we may KNOW it is not for us we try to grow and expand our views. And I think little Dominants or submissives, gender aside, have really absolutely never had a go at the other side of the literal whip (for own curiousity or being asked/told to try), it just involves too much enchantment and mystery to not want to know what it feels like for the "other".

I doubt it is the search for another label - it is mere human, bright, intelligent curiousity. That little neat thing that grought us fire, the invention of the wheel and the realization that butt plugs need a wide base to avoid unpleasant disapearance incidents.


Getting back to stereotypes as have been thrown into discussion in the opening post ... there are and always will be those people who do not crave, actually fear to find themselves (and some for good reason if I may say so, like those macho, stunning and intriguing male Dominants who tell me I just need the right Master to make me a whimpering submissive, the ones that tell you that all women secretly want to be raped - geeez, if I were one of those I'd rather not know me either. You will excuse my urge in those cases to give them a taste with an appropriately sized strap-on!)

I definitely don't need any stereotypes or clichees to find my place and label - I actually adore being who and what I am at any given time, free to pick my "spot" in my personal universe. If someone else wants to stick a label on me, fine, but they better be ready to be needing a bunch of them and better not try make any sticky on me too permanent.

The only lable I proudly and continuously wear reads "ME"

You write a great post, Hecate.

I especially liked your first point....agreed, a bi-switch could actually be totally confused as opposed to totally self aware.

Lance

 

[Lancecastor]

Would you believe.....

The "big salmon?"

hehehe, hahaha, hohoho!!!

Eb <laughing her ass off again!>

....a brook trout?

...perhaps a herring?

....okay. It's a sardine.

Be my fishmonger.
Lance

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Would you believe.....

....a brook trout?

...perhaps a herring?

....okay. It's a sardine.

Be my fishmonger.
Lance

Lance, here little fishy.....

Eb

 

[P. B. Walker]

Another 2 cents

I don't think a bi-switch that only plays online (i.e., never experienced any skin-to-skin BDSM) can ever really be labeled truely self-aware in terms of BDSM... nor could any of other categories (Dom, sub, etc) I would think. I think there is a huge difference between online play and skin-to-skin.

- PBW

 

[Lancecastor]

Re: Another 2 cents

I don't think a bi-switch that only plays online (i.e., never experienced any skin-to-skin BDSM) can ever really be labeled truely self-aware in terms of BDSM... nor could any of other categories (Dom, sub, etc) I would think. I think there is a huge difference between online play and skin-to-skin.

- PBW

My personal views are the same as yours.

For the sake of promoting an interesting discussion, I posed the question(s).

I could "think" I look like Harrison Ford or drive like Aryton Senna all day...but the proof is ultimately in the pudding.

Cool Churchill quote, by the way.

Lance

 

[Hecate]

pssssst ....

sorry, I am a racing fanatic and it is Ayrton Senna!

ok - don't mind me - back to business ... or fun.

 

[Lancecastor]

Re: pssssst ....

sorry, I am a racing fanatic and it is Ayrton Senna!

ok - don't mind me - back to business ... or fun.

Ayrton, yes.

Ooops.

Lance

 

[cymbidia]

The only lable I proudly and continuously wear reads "ME"

Oh Hecate, i is always always so good to have your reasoned, richly wise voice among us again. We are less when you're absent.

I think there is a huge difference between online play and skin-to-skin.

Yep. Always gonna be, too.

It's like imagining the taste of salmon (Lance has me thinking about fish - blame him) vs sitting down to a salmon dinner: they aren't "separate but equal" experiences by any stretch of the imagination. They are very different things.

If all one has is one's imagination, then maybe imagining the taste would be fine. After one has tasted it, though, it would be hard to go back to just imagining it, never tasting it, forevermore. (Okay. Yeh. IF, that is, one liked the way it tasted.)

 

[mskittykatt]

the only thing that keeps running through my head with regards to labels is

resistance is futile you will be assimilated

besides isn't arguing about OTHER PEOPLE's self awareness a bit silly?






i know i'm kinda late to add that silliness into this conversation - but i had to! been giggling to much over here

 

[SpectreT]

To qoute one of Robert Heinlein's characters

on self-awareness:

"....sometimes she goes away, but I'm always right here."

one of the more condensed lines of solipsist theory I've ever come across.

To address the original point from another angle, and perhaps refine the question a bit:

"Does being a Switch (or bi, or both) require someone to be on one end or the other of the self-awareness bell curve? (i.e. totally self aware and in tune with their changing moods and desires, or a total "squid"; drifting with whatever tide approaches.)"

Shameless plug alert....
For more information about Switches, and by Switches, please see my thread titled "Switch Space". Be warned, there is some flighty interpersonal stuff in there like me, Monster666 and Doc Blue trying to crack each other up a few times, but there's lots of good stuff there too! I can't figure out how to link my thread, but if someone else could, I'd appreciate it.... (hint, hint)

 

[morninggirl5]

Here's the link.


http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69523