Is submission a gift?

[quietwillow]

Here is something I often wonder about and would like your opinion on this issue.

First is submission a gift or a need? There has been much banter about this issue in the BDSM community and whether or not submission is a gift given or a need that is taken.

Some people would say that submission is a gift that is given to a Dominant by the sub. Others would say that it is a need and up to a dominant to take control of the submissive (consentually).

I think in relationships that submission is a need that presents itself as the relationship blossoms and the Dom then "trains" or "molds" it into the type of service that pleases Him. This happens consentually when the submissive agrees to it. It is really not a gift imho but more of a need which is brought out in the deepening of the relationship as they walk this journey together. The relationship may or may not include "love".

What is your opinion on this?


quiet

 

[Trainerman]

Hmmmm that's a hard one.....

As the Actress said to the Bishop !

Seriously, I think it is both. Without getting too deep, I would say that both Sub and Dom have needs BUT it is to whom the GIFT of the trust is given that is relevant.

Trust of that magnitude is a gift is it not ? (but one, of course, that must be earned).

It may well be that subsequentally the Sub will do things JUST for the joy of serving.......and that is a gift of a different sort, the joy of giving.

But as I am not a sub.....that could be a bad guess.


Dave

 

[Shadowsdream]

Here is something I often wonder about and would like your opinion on this issue.

First is submission a gift or a need? There has been much banter about this issue in the BDSM community and whether or not submission is a gift given or a need that is taken.

Some people would say that submission is a gift that is given to a Dominant by the sub. Others would say that it is a need and up to a dominant to take control of the submissive (consentually).

I think in relationships that submission is a need that presents itself as the relationship blossoms and the Dom then "trains" or "molds" it into the type of service that pleases Him. This happens consentually when the submissive agrees to it. It is really not a gift imho but more of a need which is brought out in the deepening of the relationship as they walk this journey together. The relationship may or may not include "love".

What is your opinion on this?


quiet

My opinion echos yours..and here is a bit more depth from My experience.

submission is a NEED that consumes the mind the heart and almost every waking moment. A passion that NEEDS to be fullfilled even if it takes a lifetime of searching for that reality.

I also agree that submission is a gift but the gift has no value if the Dominant is supposed to be GREATFUL for it. It has no more value than the pair of socks you get every Christmas under the tree. It must be a well chosen gift with meaning to the particular partners and be recognized as a trading of gifts between the Dominant and the submissive. Each layer of outside wrapping to be removed with pride to expose the true gift of understanding of what they share together.

The Dominant also recognizes the NEED to Dominate with every fibre of their being and will not be satisfied with just any man or woman mouthing the word *gift* or *submission* but will patiently wait for their magic.

The Dominant also gives the gift of Domination and it holds no less value than the more commonly spoken about gift of submission.

My opinion only.

 

[WillowPuss]

quiet ... there is not a lot I can add to the above.

Speaking of myself only, my submissiveness is a deep need. A need that has been in me for as long as I can remember. There have been times in my life when I have stifled it, tried to hide it ... but, like most strong characteristics, it kept bubbling to the top.

I did not, was not complete until I offered and had my offer of submission taken.



Not sure if that answered you or not.

 

[quietwillow]

WillowPuss wrote:

quiet ... there is not a lot I can add to the above.

Speaking of myself only, my submissiveness is a deep need. A need that has been in me for as long as I can remember. There have been times in my life when I have stifled it, tried to hide it ... but, like most strong characteristics, it kept bubbling to the top.

I did not, was not complete until I offered and had my offer of submission taken.

Willow I agree with you totally, as that is exactly how I felt once I owned my submission and allowed my real self to emerge!


quiet

 

[Quint]

Whatever else it is, it is not a gift. Gifts are given arbitrarily; gifts are free from attached strings; gifts can be undeserved. Submission is none of these. Submission is an entry into a reciprocated relationship with the person the sub has chosen as worthy of them and what they have to offer. If it is a need then it is enhanced and made real by the reciprocal need of the Dominant. But it is never something so simple and thoughtless as a gift.

 

[CarolineOh]

Thank you, quietwillow, for raising such an interesting topic. I am formulating my thoughts on this, but I will say that I have always been a little uncomfortable with the concept of "the gift of submision'. It does make it sound, as Shadowsdream says, like the sub is bestowing something on the Dom for which they must be grateful, without recognizing the quid pro quo nature of the relationship. Gifting can create a sense of obligation, a feeling that the person who receives the gift now owes a return to the giver. Dominance, it seems to me,ought to be given just as consensually as submission, and not with a sense that there are strings attached.

 

[Lancecastor]

There are all kinds of perfectly valid theories of human interaction that view relationships as transactional in nature, expecting a quid pro quo for fulfillment.

As for need fulfillment itself, well, seeking to have ones needs fulfilled is a core value in any healthy, self-aware person's psyche.

Without any desire to have your needs fulfilled, you'd starve in the gutter, to put a rather unelegant edge to the point.

If you wish to view your submission as a gift, you of course are free to do so, but in my view that whole "gift" paradigm is a silly romantic notion closer to Gorean fantasy role-play than real life.

All interactions are gifts; all are transactions; all are neither.
To each his own.

That's the view from here;

Lance

 

[Ebonyfire]

Semantics

In my not so humble opinion,

Does it matter what you call it? Not to Me.

I believe that too much arguing over semantics dulls the real issue in this forum. What is the real issue?

We are here to share what we do with others. There are many different flavors in this forum, and they all deserve to be heard.

We strive (I hope) to educate, inform, and encourage others.

So for me, I do not differentiate between need or gift. Whatever.

Eb

 

[Ebonyfire]

Did I fail to say

that this is a very good thread?

Eb

 

[artful]

Re: Re: Is submission a gift?

My opinion echos yours..and here is a bit more depth from My experience.

submission is a NEED that consumes the mind the heart and almost every waking moment. A passion that NEEDS to be fullfilled even if it takes a lifetime of searching for that reality.

I also agree that submission is a gift but the gift has no value if the Dominant is supposed to be GREATFUL for it. It has no more value than the pair of socks you get every Christmas under the tree. It must be a well chosen gift with meaning to the particular partners and be recognized as a trading of gifts between the Dominant and the submissive. Each layer of outside wrapping to be removed with pride to expose the true gift of understanding of what they share together.

The Dominant also recognizes the NEED to Dominate with every fibre of their being and will not be satisfied with just any man or woman mouthing the word *gift* or *submission* but will patiently wait for their magic.

The Dominant also gives the gift of Domination and it holds no less value than the more commonly spoken about gift of submission.

My opinion only.

I agree with Shadows and would add, the gifts that are exchanged between the two SHOULD be seen as equal value. NEEDS will be met, or the relationship FAILS. It fails,...even though they may stay together, for the rest of their life.

(JMHO),...but it's mine,...and I own it.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I have read this thread several times, looking for a way to intelligently address it. I really cannot.

Most of my adult life I was in a (I hate labels) vanilla marriage. Then two years ago I met a man and we explored BDSM, not really successfully, I might add.

The bottom line for me is this: When I first came to this forum, I thought I understood things about myself and what I wanted in my life. Now I know that I really didn't know anything and I am still learning. I will add that I definately have a clearer vision of what I want now than I did 2 months ago.

I just cannot find a way to address this thread in an intelligent way so I will continue to read it and glean what I can from those who DO know what they are talking about.

Rose

 

[Desdemona]

I said it before so I decided to cut and paste since my opinions have not changed.

I, too, have been giving this topic some serious thought. I find it hard to articulate my thoughts about this clearly or concisely but I'm going to try. Disclaimer: I see both submission and Domination as gifts we give each other. I can only speak to how I feel about giving submission since I'm not a Dominant.

I guess I see gifts in different categories.
1. There are gifts that cost nothing to give. I'm not necesarily referring to financial costs; there are also emotional costs. For example, my friendship and good will cost me nothing to give. It comes easily to me.
2. There are gifts that perhaps are worth little; either to the giver or to the receiver of the gift. example: cheap promotional items given by a business such as pen. Its nice if you need a pen, but not a big deal to anybody.
3. There are those gifts that cost alot to give but the cost is short lived and easily recovered. The cost may be monetary but it could also be an emotional cost. example: going with a friend as a supporter when the family dog must be put down or giving a present that really stretches your budget in the short term. This type of gift means more than the others but isn't something that necessarily impacts your day to day life. This gift is given to friends or family under special circumstances.
4. There are also gifts that are both extremely valuable and costly. Giving this type of gift is not generally done lightly and can impact both the giver and the receiver over a much longer period of time. This gift potentially impacts the day to day life of both parties. This type of gift is reserved for someone special who is worthy.

For me, wholehearted submission falls into category #4. I am a strong woman in my day to day life and have a good sense of my own personal power. Over time, like most adults, I've suffered a few hard knocks and been hurt. In terms of my career, I'm a bit of a control freak. I don't have any trouble giving directions and I expect that my directions will be followed to the letter in a timely fashion. I'm quite capable of taking corrective action with someone who fails to live up to my expectations.

If I choose to become vulnerable and to truly submit, it costs me. It is not easy for me to let go of the control and yield. When I yield to a dominant, it feels like a risk both physically and emotionally. In the past, I have paid a high price emotionally as well as physically because of poor judgement when giving this gift.

Because this gift is so valuable and costs me so dearly, I must know that it will be treated as precious. I can't afford to treat it any other way. To do less, would be a betrayal of myself. However, once I know that the Dominant is worthy and I do submit, the magic between us more than compensates me for any cost. The gift of my submission is repaid with its mirror image, Dominance. This magic between us completes me. It is a deep need which I ignored for many years. I will not ignore this need again.


These are my thoughts and opinions. I know some may disagree and that is ok with me.


__________________

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: I said it before so I decided to cut and paste since my opinions have not changed.

Because this gift is so valuable and costs me so dearly, I must know that it will be treated as precious. I can't afford to treat it any other way. To do less, would be a betrayal of myself. However, once I know that the Dominant is worthy and I do submit, the magic between us more than compensates me for any cost. The gift of my submission is repaid with its mirror image, Dominance. This magic between us completes me. It is a deep need which I ignored for many years. I will not ignore this need again.

This is not disagreement, but is just a question.

Is your submission less valuable if you substitute the word need instead of gift? Is your point less truthful?

I think not. All of what you said is wonderful no matter what you call it.

Eb

 

[Desdemona]

Re: Re: I said it before so I decided to cut and paste since my opinions have not changed.

This is not disagreement, but is just a question.

Is your submission less valuable if you substitute the word need instead of gift? Is your point less truthful?

I think not. All of what you said is wonderful no matter what you call it.

Eb

Thank you.
It's a reasonable question, Eb. I think that we could substitute the word need and it still makes sense to me. Perhaps it is both or perhaps it is a gift that I need to give in order to be whole. It doesn't really matter to me whether we call it a gift or a need. What does matter is that within the context of a relationship, my submission is viewed as valuable just as I respect and value the dominance my partner gives me.

edited to say.... this is, of course, academic since I don't have a Dom right now.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: I said it before so I decided to cut and paste since my opinions have not changed.

Thank you.
It's a reasonable question, Eb. I think that we could substitute the word need and it still makes sense to me. Perhaps it is both or perhaps it is a gift that I need to give in order to be whole. It doesn't really matter to me whether we call it a gift or a need. What does matter is that within the context of a relationship, my submission is viewed as valuable just as I respect and value the dominance my partner gives me.

edited to say.... this is, of course, academic since I don't have a Dom right now.

In fact, I do not correct a sub when they say gift or need. I am open for either one as long as they are sincere.

Eb

 

[Shadowsdream]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I said it before so I decided to cut and paste since my opinions have not changed.

In fact, I do not correct a sub when they say gift or need. I am open for either one as long as they are sincere.

Eb

and when they subsitute either for want?

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I said it before so I decided to cut and paste since my opinions have not change

and when they subsitute either for want?

That requires some digging and some educating on my part.


I usually have to ask them if this is a fantasy.

I have found that wants are manifestations of fantasies.

I do not make fantasies come true.

Eb

 

[Desdemona]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I said it before so I decided to cut and paste since my opinions have not ch

That requires some digging and some educating on my part.


I usually have to ask them if this is a fantasy.

I have found that wants are manifestations of fantasies.

I do not make fantasies come true.

Eb

Eb, I would like to play the devil's advocate and ask you a question about this. I think, in order to ask it, I have to make up a hypothetical scenario.
Let's say you meet a man who is a "natural submissive". This man has been fighting to accept his need to submit for some time. Now, you have said that you are a very careful, slow moving Domme. You take your time getting to know this fellow and become convinced of his sincere need to submit. I suspect, that during this getting to know each other time, he will have fantasies about what it would be like to submit to you.
Would it not be true, in this case, that you do make his fantasies come true when you allow him to submit?

Or are you actually saying that the reality of submission is much more than the fantasy can ever entail?

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I said it before so I decided to cut and paste since my opinions have no

Excellent questions. Let me see if I can do them justice.

Originally posted by Desdemona
You take your time getting to know this fellow and become convinced of his sincere need to submit. I suspect, that during this getting to know each other time, he will have fantasies about what it would be like to submit to you.

True. Now the first thing I do is determine if he should submit to me. Not all the candidates I get are right for Me.



Would it not be true, in this case, that you do make his fantasies come true when you allow him to submit?

Nope, cause he may not be allowed to submit to Me. His fantasies have no bearing on whether he is allowed to submit or not. It is his "rightness" for me that is the primary thing.

His fantasies are born of wants. If I am being honest, then I have to be able to look past his wants (fantasies) and see what he needs. If he need me, I go further, if he needs someone else, I either send him on his way, or try to help him focus his attentions on getting his needs met.

Or are you actually saying that the reality of submission is much more than the fantasy can ever entail?

I am saying that reality usually falls short of fantasy at first, but over time is surpasses it.

My job as a dominant to ascertain what is behind the want and to bring that knowlege to the sub's cconsciousness so that he will know what he is looking for and be able to get it. That can mean finding someone else better suited to his needs.

Hope that answers your questions.

Eb

 

[Desdemona]

Thanks Eb. You did.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Thanks Eb. You did.

Welcome. Now you know why it takes some of us so long to make a decision about a sub. Also, it is why skin-to-skin is so crucial. It is very hard to separate fantasy from reality long distance or online.

Eb

 

[Red Menace]

Submission is not a need for me. I've lived for 10 years knowing it was an option, something I enjoyed, but never going out of my way to find it. Within the right context, it is something I'd like to offer someone... in fact I have offered it to a couple of signifigant others in my life who have either not realized the full implications or were unable to accept... and the relationship went on without that component.

So I do see it as a gift and something to be cherished and guarded closely as it's not something I'm going to give to just anyone.

 

[Desdemona]

Welcome. Now you know why it takes some of us so long to make a decision about a sub.

I]Intellectually, I understand this quite well and appreciate it. It ensures that the fit is good. Emotionally, it is hard to cope with sometimes. Like a lot of femsubs, I run the risk of allowing emotions to color decision making and sometimes become impatient for decisions to be made. I'm working on this one though.[/I]

Also, it is why skin-to-skin is so crucial. It is very hard to separate fantasy from reality long distance or online.

[I am completely with you on this concept. There can be a huge difference between online and real life. Absolutely, there is no substitute for skin to skin.

Eb

 

[SpectreT]

Submission is a......

a) Gift.
b) Need.
c) Both.
d) Punt.

Like most "Multiple Guess" questions, the attempt to classify and clarify submission simply confuses the issue in a cloud of intellectualism. The issue is deeper and more visceral than our temporal lobes are used to processing. Therefore, language is likely to lag behind this idea for some time.

It is, in my opinion, a need and a gift at once. Does a dom(me) need to feel grateful for it? Not really. Like most relationship issues, the dom(me) brings a need and a gift as well, and if all is well and good and warm and fuzzy, those needs/gifts are complementary, the fitting curves of a yin/yang.

On second thought, perhaps we all should feel some form of gratitude that we're "put together" mentally and emotionally to experience this, acknowledge and try to understand it better......