Is oriental racist? Alternatives?

[ishtat]

This woman is what? I am reasonably certain that most people will notice something else before her ethnicity; she is of course a Malay from Malaysia which country also has significant Indian and Chinese(Hokkien) minorities. The main back up singer is a Chinese speaking African American and the chorus are from southern China. She sings in Chinese- Mandarin in this song as well as English, neither of which is her native Language; that is Bahasa Malayu.

And she can sing a bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQvUwLSOyfA

And the first thing you noticed? Her religion.

So calling someone Oriental or Asian is about as useful as tits on a bull (Australian expression) But I don't think its especially harmful - you should hear what my Cantonese speaking employees say about their Mandarin colleagues from the North.

Incidentally the song was written by a Norwegian with an Irishman and the most successful recording (2nd) was done by Josh Groban an American/Jew

 

[Lily_Wight]

(Closed)

 

[tomlitilia]

I've been wondering if this was a gender thing. No Asian men have chimed in, but I wonder if they would be as ignored.

Here's a quick recap of the thread:
OP: should I use the term Oriental to refer to Asian people?
Random people: it's what's in your heart.
Asian people: we don't like that, but we don't really get mad about it.
Random people: yeah, but don't police words, feelings count.
Asian people: those words make us feel weird.
Random people: but it's about how I say the words.
Me: I feel like people are ignoring my opinion.
Random people: hey, no one is ignoring your opinion, it's just that it's how you say the words.

For what it's worth, the OP is convinced to stay clear of the term. This was already my hunch, but English is my second language, and subtleties can be challenging.

 

[LWulf]

Aren't they. Now me, I do a great Sailor Moon for Halloween parties. Talk about playing to a stereotype. I love it!

Ya know, you might have had me if you had said Panty (of Panty and Stocking, with Garterbelt). lol Throw in a "Heeeey, Geekboy!" and a few lines from D-City Rock (Anarchy) and I woulda been putty. *le sigh* ...missed opportunities.

 

[TheeGoatPig]

Random people

Quite right. I will start a new topic when I get home and have time to write up something on a keyboard.

 

[MrKittyLuver]

Good, then you won't be offended by the word "mansplaining".

It's interesting to read the opinion that "words aren't important" in an author's forum.

Not at all offended by the term...offended by someone using it as an excuse to not engage in the conversation, as an excuse to ignore me. The term itself is just a collection of letters, it's their use that matters.

The words aren't important. The attitude is.

100% correct.

And "Oriental", by definition, can NOT be racist. It refers to a location, not a race. Is the Orient Express a racist railway? Are Oriental flavored Ramen noodles racist? Are the Oriental sections of grocery stores racist? Are these things talking about people or referring to a location?

I guess it will come down to how sensitive you as an author are to offending your audience whether you use "Oriental" or not.

I'm sure I'm just using my white privilege to mansplain it away, though

 

[Lily_Wight]

(Closed)

 

[MelissaBaby]

Quite right. I will start a new topic when I get home and have time to write up something on a keyboard.

Why are you misattributing a quote to me?

 

[SimonDoom]

The words aren't important. The attitude is.

It might be a better world, in theory, if more people had this attitude, but we don't live in this world, and we never have. If you say "fuck you" to someone, but say, "I meant it in a nice way", you're still responsible if they get offended. You can't shield yourself from being responsible for offending people because you have only the best intentions.

I'm middle-aged, and I can't recall a time when "Oriental" was an appropriate word to use in polite conversation to describe people from China or Japan or Korea. "Asian" has always been appropriate, to my knowledge. "Oriental" is not nearly as offensive as some other racial words, but it's offensive enough to enough people that this one seems like an easy call -- don't use it to describe groups of people.

You can say "People shouldn't get offended", but the fact is, they do get offended. The question then is, knowing that fact, what do we choose to do? That's the interesting question.

 

[MrKittyLuver]

You can show discrimination, or make someone feel it, with innocuous words like oriental, slant, or chink, none of which refer to human beings or race.

I have to disagree. Slant and chink both reference physical features...which are aspects of your race. Slanted eyes are part of the DNA make-up of a particular group of humans.

Oriental only refers to the place they come from. If you have no problem referring to someone as "Middle Eastern" or "British", then you should have zero problem with referring to someone as "Oriental".

yes, how you use them counts, but after this thread, I'm going to feel a lot stronger about when people call me oriental.

This is entirely your choice to make. But, understand that is comes from within, not from without.

A first generation Vietnamese family opened up a restaurant in my home town and advertised themselves as offering "Authentic Oriental Cuisine". How am I supposed to find that term offensive?

 

[SimonDoom]

I was doing some Googling on this subject and found a very funny quote from Margaret Cho that I think captures some of the flavor of this thread:

'White people like to tell Asians how to feel about race because they're too scared to tell black people.'

 

[Lily_Wight]

(Closed)

 

[TheeGoatPig]

Why are you misattributing a quote to me?

Because I'm posting from my phone at work and I suck.

It might be a better world, in theory, if more people had this attitude, but we don't live in this world, and we never have.

But I feel like we could if more of us tried

 

[SimonDoom]

Because I'm posting from my phone at work and I suck.


But I feel like we could if more of us tried

I agree with you, to a degree. I think it's a matter of picking your battles. Giving up the use of "oriental" because many Asian people find it offensive is an easy thing to do, whatever one's own opinion about it.

I'm more inclined to draw the line where accusations of racism significantly affect people's freedom to express themselves in a way that, to me, is not at all racist. For instance, claims that it's racist for a white woman to wear cornrows or hoop earrings. I draw the line at that. Nobody should be telling somebody else how you can and cannot wear your hair, or the jewelry you wear.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Well, I'm not a sensitive soul but I don't like being called oriental. It doesn't offend me like chink does but still... Asian is fine, oriental food is fine. Geographical orientation is fine. And yes in general we're smaller and cuter and far less threatening and we don't indulge in stereotypically violent behaviour so people tend to be a little less wary of offending us .... although maybe not if you read my Troll story hahaha.

So is oriental as a description of a person racist? I'd say not really coz racism these days is a meaningless term of abuse, but I do find it offensive although nowhere near as much as gook slut.

 

[MrKittyLuver]

Chink has nothing to do with a physical appearance. Would you call someone a nip, or jap if you knew they were from Japan?

There is no definitive derivation for the word "chink", but one of the most commonly held beliefs as to how it came into being is by referring to a chink as a particularly shaped crack in a wall or other surface. We're splitting some very fine hairs here.

Since I've heard Japanese people refer to THEMSELVES as japs, yes, I would absolutely use that term...with those people.

That is my general default stance. Use the words people use for themselves. If you call yourself a fag, if that's just the term you own, then that's what I'll call you.

I'm not from the orient. I've never even been there. And you are dead wrong if you think my feelings about this are coming from within. Reread this thread. I started off with the opinion that the term oriental is just old fashioned.

Old fashioned, perhaps, but not racist. Seriously...do you find calling people "Scandinavian" racist? Why is one term fine but the other not? Why do you get to lay claim to the term "Asian" while pretending Russia isn't a part of Asia? The world map existed long before you were born, why do you get to rewrite it?

Then I was told over and over again how I "should" feel about it. That input came from without.

The input came from without. What you chose to do with it came from within.

I'm going to feel a lot stronger about when people call me oriental.

Or is someone holding a gun to your head forcing you to feel stronger about this from now on?

Sorry, I know I'm coming across as an ass. I'm deliberately doing a bit of pot stirring because people need their delicate sensibilities challenged from time to time...the emperor needs to be told he's not wearing clothes. But I am just some random nobody from the internet. It's entirely safe to ignore me.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Sorry, I know I'm coming across as an ass. I'm deliberately doing a bit of pot stirring because people need their delicate sensibilities challenged from time to time...the emperor needs to be told he's not wearing clothes. But I am just some random nobody from the internet. It's entirely safe to ignore me.

This is the part I will never understand. Why do you feel it is appropriate for you to decide that other people "need their delicate sensibilities challenged"? That is remarkably arrogant and extremely patronizing. It is particularly so when you are making such "challenges" to people whose background or life experiences are not ones you share.

People who are marginalized by their ethnicity, gender or sexual identity are scarcely "the emperor". They don't need their pots stirred by people punching down at them.

 

[SimonDoom]

Since I've heard Japanese people refer to THEMSELVES as japs, yes, I would absolutely use that term...with those people.

.

By this standard, since some black people use the "N" word among themselves, you should use it with them as well. This obviously is a ridiculous standard. Anyone who adopted this standard would be pegged as racist and shunned by most people (I don't know, but I'm assuming you are white -- apologies if I'm wrong).

I get your overall point, but this is a completely unworkable method of practicing it. I doubt very much that you actually do this.

 

[Lily_Wight]

(Closed)

 

[SimonDoom]

You aren't just a random nobody from the internet. Your opinions aren't even new to the thread! This is page 4.

But thanks for challenging my sensibilities. We Asian women have had it too good for too long.

I'll never make the mistake of voicing my opinion in earshot of white people if it means they would have to briefly consider my feelings on the topic of word choice when addressing me.

If you did that, you would be doing your viewpoint a disservice.

You shouldn't shut up because one person disagrees with you. If that's all it took to get people to shut up, nobody would say anything and we wouldn't get anywhere.

I think more people have considered your feelings on this topic than you are giving credit.

 

[SimonDoom]

I, for one, never knew it is an issue, and I truly wonder what more I don't know.

Every day, I wonder about what I don't know. I wish I knew. I just know it's a lot more than I do know. That's all I know for certain.

 

[MrKittyLuver]

By this standard, since some black people use the "N" word among themselves, you should use it with them as well. This obviously is a ridiculous standard. Anyone who adopted this standard would be pegged as racist and shunned by most people (I don't know, but I'm assuming you are white -- apologies if I'm wrong).

I get your overall point, but this is a completely unworkable method of practicing it. I doubt very much that you actually do this.

Actually, I do. Now you no doubt think I mean any random black person I come across...which is, of course, ridiculous. To quote myself: "I would absolutely use that term...with those people." Note the "with those people"...that means the people who've used that term with me, not just randomly overheard somewhere.

One of my best friends in Jr. High was retarded...and I have no qualms using this word for him. Jack would tell you to your face "I don't care if you call me retarded as long as you aren't mean about it."

I'm not arrogant enough to tell him he should be offended by that word.

He understood. Some of you could seriously take a lesson.

People who are marginalized by their ethnicity, gender or sexual identity are scarcely "the emperor". They don't need their pots stirred by people punching down at them.

ANYONE who thinks they're too good to get their nose tweaked, will be the first in line to get it tweaked. Sorry, but this isn't punching down, it's pointing out that your shit stinks just as much everyone else's.

Don't you brag about how thick your skin is?

I'll never make the mistake of voicing my opinion in earshot of white people if it means they would have to briefly consider my feelings on the topic of word choice when addressing me.

Do you seriously give other people this much power over you? It's unfortunate that we can't just talk...but I guess that's what happens when you get twisted up over a word instead of the intent behind it.

 

[MelissaBaby]

ANYONE who thinks they're too good to get their nose tweaked, will be the first in line to get it tweaked. Sorry, but this isn't punching down, it's pointing out that your shit stinks just as much everyone else's.

Don't you brag about how thick your skin is?

My skin is not an issue here. It's white.

You seem to be utterly tone deaf, continuing to blurt nonsense along the lines of describing people who just ask for a decent consideration of their feelings as "thinking they're too good to have their nose tweaked". But you evaded my question as to why you feel compelled to police other people's "sensitivities." I don't expect you to answer it going forward, and that's okay. I'm sure you've got some short kids to mock or something, so I won't take up any more of your time.

 

[Captainnumnuts]

He solved it guys. If you see a bunch of orientals and are racist enough to look for differences between them, just ask what gradient of oriental they are.

Lol. My favourite was "do you speak Asian?"

It took me half an hour to stop rolling around on the floor laughing my ass off and it actually happened. I loved it. We dated. It was one helluva start to a short but interesting relationship.

Soooooo what would be the proper sociably acceptable word for those of the Asian persuasion these days? My spellchecker hasn't caught up w/the times yet.
Oriental is not in my vocabulary unless it's part of a story. Or oriental cookies - those American ones.

 

[Captainnumnuts]

I feel like way too many people cling to the idea that "bad words are bad and you shouldn't use bad words."

We need to stop demonizing words in the first place. Stop being offended by the words that people use to put you down and start being offended by the attitude of the person using those words.

Instead if saying, "Don't use that word!" Think about how they used it. If it is derogatory say, "Don't talk to/about me like that."

The words aren't important. The attitude is.

Fuckin' aye.