Is oriental racist? Alternatives?

[redzinger]

It may sound odd, but I find Asian is a bit of a lazy catch-all for, 'I can't be bothered to properly identify where they are from.'

I've never really understood why Oriental as a geographical term is disliked. For me, it's not much different to Scandinavian. I've always thought it shows more care, rather than less.

(You're welcome to accuse me of 'white privilege', but I have my own crosses to bear, being ginger and Welsh...)

https://youtu.be/Oce28VRfY7k

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...y-eddie-jones-england-brexit?CMP=share_btn_fb

 

[Lily_Wight]

(Closed)

 

[ChloeTzang]

...so, how do you know that the former is likely to be playful and the latter threatening?

Because of past experience. You've heard people using "what up?" and you know it's usually friendly; you've heard "fuck you" before and you know it's almost always an aggressive challenge, except when used between people who are in a good mood and trust one another.

I think a lot of it is also your relationship with the person you're talking too. Contextual. I use language with friends I know really well that I would NEVER use with someone I don't know or with someone who's not as close. It's interesting thinking about that. I'm going to be analyzing how I talk to people for a while now

It may sound odd, but I find Asian is a bit of a lazy catch-all for, 'I can't be bothered to properly identify where they are from.'

Nah, in my case it's "I have no frigging idea where you're from"

I've never really understood why Oriental as a geographical term is disliked. For me, it's not much different to Scandinavian. I've always thought it shows more care, rather than less.

Now as a geographical term I have no issue with that. "The mysterious orient" is rather intriguing, whereas "the mysterious oriental" is rather less so. Shades of Fu Manchu to me.

 

[Lily_Wight]

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[redzinger]

It's not just that. I'll use the term even if I know they are from a different country from me.

Like if I'm at a party and there is only one other non-white person there, and they are from a different Asian country we will still talk about how we are glad to see another Asian.

Thing is, someone Asian could be someone from the Far East, or someone from the Indian subcontinent. That's one hell of a lot of different Asians and skin colours and backgrounds and beliefs and languages. I'm not sure if someone from, say Romania was the only other white person at a party that I would go speak to them.

 

[Lily_Wight]

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[FEELINGLUCKYPUNK]

On the news yesterday "lite beer" was condemned as racist.

 

[Lily_Wight]

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[ChloeTzang]

It's not just that. I'll use the term even if I know they are from a different country from me.

Like if I'm at a party and there is only one other non-white person there, and they are from a different Asian country we will still talk about how we are glad to see another Asian.

In my admittedly very limited experience in Singapore where my dad worked for a while, that seems to be what happens. White ex-pats will gravitate together if there's only a couple of them. I live in a city without a large Asian community and if I'm somewhere out socially like a party or a BBQ or something and I see another Asian I'll go talk to them.

As far as "Asian" goes I think of Asians as south and north East Asians, that line from Indonesia and Burma up to china, Korea, Mongolia and Japan. To me, Indians are Indians, not Asian. I think including or describing Indians and Pakistanis as Asian is largely a British thing that's limited to the British media. I certainly don't look at an Indian and think "Asian".

As far as "can't we say whatever we want without being seen as racist" is concerned, I guess that's a personal thing. I grew up where my mom and I and my grandmother were the only Asian females (in my case, mixed but hey I'm very visibly part Asian) and there were always a lot of racist comments or people would say something racist and go "we don't think of you as Chinese" or something like that. You can let it get to you or not but it's a fact of life and everyone has their prejudices and biases. I grew up with that and it doesn't phase me in the slightest. When you're a visible minority it pays to have a thick skin coz if you don't you're going to end up with a chip on your shoulder the size of an oak tree. Too much sensitivity if you ask me. I say just say whatever. If someone is too offensive I'll just do what I'd do if they were rude in any other way. Depends if it's deliberate or just thoughtless to me and it's easy to tell if someone is aiming at you personally.

 

[LWulf]

In a world view, "Asian" isn't acceptable neither as about half the countries in "Asia" aren't "Oriental." However, I wasn't alive 100+ years ago to remember how things were back then, and hold a grudge. So, supposedly "Oriental" isn't acceptable neither. "Asian" to describe "oriental" peoples is a typical American term. Orientals who live in those countries prefer to be called by their country of ethnic origin, and you must be blind/stupid/foolish if you can't tell the differences between a Chinese, Taiwanese, Korean, and Japanese person(s), etc.

Asian Countries:
Afghanistan (non-oriental)
Armenia (non-oriental)
Azerbaijan (non-oriental)
Bahrain
Bangladesh (non-oriental)
Bhutan
Brunei
Cambodia
China
Cyprus (non-oriental)
Georgia (non-oriental)
India (non-oriental)
Indonesia
Iran (non-oriental)
Iraq (non-oriental)
Israel (non-oriental)
Japan
Jordan (non-oriental)
Kazakhstan (non-oriental)
Kuwait (non-oriental)
Kyrgyzstan (non-oriental)
Laos
Lebanon (non-oriental)
Malaysia
Maldives
Mongolia
Myanmar (Burma)
Nepal
North Korea
Oman (non-oriental)
Pakistan (non-oriental)
Palestine (non-oriental)
Philippines
Qatar
Russia (non-oriental)
Saudi Arabia (non-oriental)
Singapore
South Korea
Sri Lanka
Syria (non-oriental)
Taiwan
Tajikistan (non-oriental)
Thailand
Timor-Leste
Turkey (non-oriental)
Turkmenistan (non-oriental)
United Arab Emirates (UAE) (non-oriental)
Uzbekistan (non-oriental)
Vietnam
Yemen (non-oriental)

Note: folks who see a personage of Oriental stock once every week/month/year are unlikely to notice gradient differences between a bunch of Orientals. Those that deal in tens/hundreds/thousands a day are likely to notice such shades of gray.

Note: Orient Airways wasn't named after a rug, nor was the Orient Express.

However, if you're interested in my opinion of what defines "racist," that would be people that look for minutia differences between one bunch of peoples and another.

Although, technically, that isn't "racist" as much as stereotyping. Stereotyping, isn't definitively "racist" as racism means you look negatively on someone because they are "this" or "that," while stereotyping is simply classifying people, by observation. While not conclusive and therefore foolish to make presumption, it doesn't prove racism.
Using stereotyping, and looking unfavorably on someone based on that presumption, is racist, and foolish, natch'.

edit: Each country has it's own way of interpreting/defining the rest of the world. For example, you speak to any Spaniard from South America, they would say we live Los Estados Unidos (I forget the Portuguese term), and while we (in the US) see everyone south of the American/Mexican border, as "South Americans," they get very upset because they see it as "North America," "Central America," and "South America."

Too, most, if not all, English speaking countries know there are "7 seas," while most, if not all, Latin speaking countries define it as only "5 seas."

My point being, everyone's world view is different, and you're likely to piss off someone, simply by using one form or another. As long as you don't use negativity when using such terms, people would have to be frothing morons to jump all over you otherwise.

 

[ChloeTzang]

See, now those countries are "asian" geographically but I wouldn't think of most of the people from them as Asian at all. Middle eastern largely. I don't look at an Iranian and think "asian". Nope, I think "middle eastern" or (substitute racist reference of choice, coz yep, that happens) and for Indians I think "Indian". There's a big difference between geography and visible ethnicity and references to as well as perceptions of and a lot of that is cultural. If you read the British media for example, you will see many references to "Asians" which in fact are to Pakistanis largely. It's an interesting British cultural phenomena.

As for not telling the difference, I didn't grow up with all those different ethnicities. Only part Asian girl in town. I can't tell the differences to save my life. Asians all look the same to me. Lol not really, just kidding, but I do have a hard time getting it right (to my definition of Asian anyhow).

 

[Lily_Wight]

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[ChloeTzang]

He solved it guys. If you see a bunch of orientals and are racist enough to look for differences between them, just ask what gradient of oriental they are.

Lol. My favourite was "do you speak Asian?"

It took me half an hour to stop rolling around on the floor laughing my ass off and it actually happened. I loved it. We dated. It was one helluva start to a short but interesting relationship.

 

[Lily_Wight]

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[tomlitilia]

Also this one about guys only being into Asian girls:
https://youtu.be/zWFQ1uiD8LA

Incidentally, that girl has the makeup style I was trying to describe. I think it's safe to say that the shape of the eyes is something that is a distinctive characteristic of people from south east Asia. My very non-expert impression is that the way her mascara accentuates her eye shape conveys a level of pride; she's not trying to hide her "Asian" features -- she's bringing attention to it. And that fits well with the character in the story I'm writing. Not trying to fetishize anything. I just want her to be a sexy and very much aware of it. And to me, part of what makes someone sexy is being proud of your looks, whatever they are.

 

[Alice_Rosaleen]

"Also, Dude, 'Chinaman' is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, please."

 

[Lily_Wight]

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[SimonDoom]

This thread is a microcosm of my racism experience irl. There is only one other Asian person, all the other people are well meaning but mostly don't think people are racist against Asians, so they don't take our opinions seriously.

I don't think people aren't taking your opinion seriously. I think what you're seeing is what always happens in discussions of "Is [blank] racist?" "Racist" is a big, opaque term. It means different things to different people, and its meaning has changed over time.

40 years ago, stereotyping was much less likely to be regarded as "racist." All sorts of things were tolerated in media and entertainment and in everyday behavior that would be condemned as racist now.

To some degree, I think, this is generational. Older people are likely to have a somewhat narrower definition of what's racist than younger people are. White people (I'm white) are more likely to have a narrower definition, too. They don't experience stereotyping in the same way, and they're less likely to think of it as racist.

The other generational change is the relative importance of these kinds of debates. Whether you want to call it politically correct, or something else, our culture is much, much more concerned than in the past with how words are used, and in particular with how words are used in connection with race, gender, and gender preference. The fact that we keep asking this sort of thing highlights that change.

 

[LWulf]

Incidentally, that girl has the makeup style I was trying to describe. I think it's safe to say that the shape of the eyes is something that is a distinctive characteristic of people from south east Asia. My very non-expert impression is that the way her mascara accentuates her eye shape conveys a level of pride; she's not trying to hide her "Asian" features -- she's bringing attention to it. And that fits well with the character in the story I'm writing. Not trying to fetishize anything. I just want her to be a sexy and very much aware of it. And to me, part of what makes someone sexy is being proud of your looks, whatever they are.

Technically speaking, "Asian" people mostly have the same shape eyes as everyone else. The difference is, the rest have "bagginess" around the eyes, while "Asians" don't. That is the perceptive difference between the two eyes.
Contrarily, some scant few Latins/Italians have the same non-baggy skin around their eyes.

However, I understand what your saying as I know one Chinese female cosplayer who loves to make her eyes more "round" puts in blue contacts, and she dyes her straight hair blonde and suddenly her facial features then look like the girl of my dreams (albeit not very "Asian").

Perceptions are a strange thing, that colors our thoughts.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Technically speaking, "Asian" people mostly have the same shape eyes as everyone else. The difference is, the rest have "bagginess" around the eyes, while "Asians" don't. That is the perceptive difference between the two eyes.
Contrarily, some scant few Latins/Italians have the same non-baggy skin around their eyes.

However, I understand what your saying as I know one Chinese female cosplayer who loves to make her eyes more "round" puts in blue contacts, and she dies her hair blonde and her facial features then look like the girl of my dreams (albeit not very "Asian").

Perceptions are a strange thing, that colors our thoughts.

Aren't they. Now me, I do a great Sailor Moon for Halloween parties. Talk about playing to a stereotype. I love it!

 

[TheeGoatPig]

I feel like way too many people cling to the idea that "bad words are bad and you shouldn't use bad words."

We need to stop demonizing words in the first place. Stop being offended by the words that people use to put you down and start being offended by the attitude of the person using those words.

Instead if saying, "Don't use that word!" Think about how they used it. If it is derogatory say, "Don't talk to/about me like that."

The words aren't important. The attitude is.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I feel like way too many people cling to the idea that "bad words are bad and you shouldn't use bad words."

We need to stop demonizing words in the first place. Stop being offended by the words that people use to put you down and start being offended by the attitude of the person using those words.

Instead if saying, "Don't use that word!" Think about how they used it. If it is derogatory say, "Don't talk to/about me like that."

The words aren't important. The attitude is.

Good, then you won't be offended by the word "mansplaining".

It's interesting to read the opinion that "words aren't important" in an author's forum.

 

[LWulf]

I feel like way too many people cling to the idea that "bad words are bad and you shouldn't use bad words."

We need to stop demonizing words in the first place. Stop being offended by the words that people use to put you down and start being offended by the attitude of the person using those words.

Instead if saying, "Don't use that word!" Think about how they used it. If it is derogatory say, "Don't talk to/about me like that."

The words aren't important. The attitude is.

In a word, hypercritical. Yes.

I grew up in a rough and tumble area of the ...ahem... NORTH, and we used to flip off with every conceivable slur and curse, every other word; to our friends. This is how we talked to each other daily. It wasn't probably intended thus, but I learned words are a meaningless thing, it's the intent behind the words that can be, or isn't vile. Those words can be on the surface very polite, yet then you see the barbs hidden beneath.

Personally, I don't believe telling someone "don't talk to/about me like that" is in any way effective, because if the person intended to be scathing, then they will ignore you, and if you see the person didn't intend to be harsh, then I allow them their idiosyncrasies.
That's how we did it in the OLD school.

 

[redzinger]

That might be because you aren't always the only white person wherever you are.

I have been - at work and socially. Shortly after I moved to London, I was the ginger person in the clip I posted above - adopted by black and Asian work colleagues. Not that I was bullied for being ginger, but I had more in common with them than my white colleagues. Though, every now and again a white guy would show up.

Been at private parties in Central London and been the only white person in the room too. Except for the croupier - think she was Eastern European.

 

[TheeGoatPig]

Good, then you won't be offended by the word "mansplaining".

It's interesting to read the opinion that "words aren't important" in an author's forum.

I don't get offended by most things. Willful ignorance offends me. People that use race as a justification for their anger offend me. People that can't drive bit have a license regardless offend me.

Trying to get me off track of my argument by offending me is bothersome, but not offensive