Is it Trust or Self Delusion / Wishful Thinking

[incubus'_sub]

Recently there have been large numbers of posts indicating trust as the most important factor in BDSM.

From my point of view I trust Incubus to be careful with my body ie not kill me during breath play or knife play etc. I believe that he loves me as his partner and his behaviour toward me would indicate in all ways that this is true. However much I love him though, I do recognise that he is human & as subject to human faults & failings as I am myself. Our relationship has bloomed & grown. My faith in him has developed by spending much of our time together in person, talking, reading body language, all the usual things.

From my experience it takes time, even with the help of lust, to fall in love & trust someone in person. How then can it really be a trust situation with online & on phone relationships? I accept that many people do see this as their real relationship and many, many posts have outlined this great trust that they feel & the betrayal they experience if it goes badly.

But, should this be called trust in the true meaning of the word, or is it a form of wishful thinking & hoping that whilst you are following Master's orders & doing unusual things to yourself, that that Master is not firing off the same orders to many others at the same time.

This trust seems to be one of the most important things and has been written about in very great detail, yet how can it possibly develop in the above situation. Would it not be a fair observation that in truth it is self delusional wishful thinking?

I believe we should all live believing the best about people until proven wrong and fantasies about relationships have a big part to play in life too, but from what I have read here lately some people are investing enormous amounts of time & energy under the heading of trust which to me does not exist in that scenario.

 

[graceanne]

I could never trust someone over the phone or online. Frankly, one of the reasons that it's taken me and kenny this long to get to where we are is it took me this long to get to where I could trust him in this kind of relationship. I just can't imagine giving that kind of trust to someoen i'd just met. I couldn't.

 

[RJMasters]

I could never trust someone over the phone or online. Frankly, one of the reasons that it's taken me and kenny this long to get to where we are is it took me this long to get to where I could trust him in this kind of relationship. I just can't imagine giving that kind of trust to someoen i'd just met. I couldn't.

In real life? or just online? Perhaps you mean both?

 

[Netzach]

well one of the relationships I have that I would consider a relationship of significant trust is conducted at a distance. Phone conversation led to several in-person meetings. A lot of emotional ground was covered over the phone, but proof is in pudding.

We are making an effort to meet once a quarter for now. The more time spent in dialogue, the more we come to know and trust one another.

If it were only conducted over the phone and online it would be a different animal, to me.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Recently there have been large numbers of posts indicating trust as the most important factor in BDSM.

From my point of view I trust Incubus to be careful with my body ie not kill me during breath play or knife play etc. I believe that he loves me as his partner and his behaviour toward me would indicate in all ways that this is true. However much I love him though, I do recognise that he is human & as subject to human faults & failings as I am myself. Our relationship has bloomed & grown. My faith in him has developed by spending much of our time together in person, talking, reading body language, all the usual things.

From my experience it takes time, even with the help of lust, to fall in love & trust someone in person. How then can it really be a trust situation with online & on phone relationships? I accept that many people do see this as their real relationship and many, many posts have outlined this great trust that they feel & the betrayal they experience if it goes badly.

But, should this be called trust in the true meaning of the word, or is it a form of wishful thinking & hoping that whilst you are following Master's orders & doing unusual things to yourself, that that Master is not firing off the same orders to many others at the same time.

This trust seems to be one of the most important things and has been written about in very great detail, yet how can it possibly develop in the above situation. Would it not be a fair observation that in truth it is self delusional wishful thinking?

I believe we should all live believing the best about people until proven wrong and fantasies about relationships have a big part to play in life too, but from what I have read here lately some people are investing enormous amounts of time & energy under the heading of trust which to me does not exist in that scenario.

There are several points I would like to address but let me just begin with this one...

I have made several online friends - here and at other sites - who I trust completely. Desdemona is a prime example and the list goes on... RJ, Shadows, WriterDom, AA ... I could make this a list thread lol.

But I know that those people I consider my closest friends are that because they have proven to me to be trustworthy.

(Would/have I let them Dom/me me?
Well, not Des but maybe the others. LOL)

I realize you are not talking about friendships. But I don't believe you can have any kind of romantic relationship that is lasting, without a solid friendship to begin with. And to have a friendship means to trust and be trustworthy. I do believe that can be established online and I have the friends and past experiences to prove it.

I have almost never been mistaken in my choice of friends.

 

[RJMasters]

Recently there have been large numbers of posts indicating trust as the most important factor in BDSM.

From my point of view I trust Incubus to be careful with my body ie not kill me during breath play or knife play etc. I believe that he loves me as his partner and his behaviour toward me would indicate in all ways that this is true. However much I love him though, I do recognise that he is human & as subject to human faults & failings as I am myself. Our relationship has bloomed & grown. My faith in him has developed by spending much of our time together in person, talking, reading body language, all the usual things.

From my experience it takes time, even with the help of lust, to fall in love & trust someone in person. How then can it really be a trust situation with online & on phone relationships? I accept that many people do see this as their real relationship and many, many posts have outlined this great trust that they feel & the betrayal they experience if it goes badly.

But, should this be called trust in the true meaning of the word, or is it a form of wishful thinking & hoping that whilst you are following Master's orders & doing unusual things to yourself, that that Master is not firing off the same orders to many others at the same time.

This trust seems to be one of the most important things and has been written about in very great detail, yet how can it possibly develop in the above situation. Would it not be a fair observation that in truth it is self delusional wishful thinking?

I believe we should all live believing the best about people until proven wrong and fantasies about relationships have a big part to play in life too, but from what I have read here lately some people are investing enormous amounts of time & energy under the heading of trust which to me does not exist in that scenario.

should this be called trust in the true meaning of the word...

Interesting question and choice of words. I think trust can have limits placed upon it, and I agree that the dynamic of online does impose limits weather people choose to see that or not.

There is in my opinion different levels of trust, or maybe to say it this way...you can give a person a measure of trust but not trust them completely.

I think there is "a measure of trust" which can be had online. I think if you spend enough time with a person talking with them and sharing things about each other...reading their posts...you can get an idea of who they are...as it is only a matter of time before people "frontin" are realized.

I think there is "a measure of trust" which can be had online

as to weather that measure is enough for RL bdsm or the "same", probably not. I think online give way to too much fantasy and not enough reality. I think it is because online is used as a means of escapism for many and as such is not a place for realism.

however that is not the case for all people online. There are many, who are online as they are in real life.

I guess I don't completely agree that its a self delusional type of thing 100%. I think there is room for...a measure of trust to exist. Online should never be confused with RL expereince, but that is not to say real freindships or real relationships cannot develop online but they must always be viewed as "online relationship" and the limits placed upon them should not be ignored.

It is what it is...and that's all it is. For it to be more than it is...it would have to RL.

One thing I know for sure...if any of you ever met me...you would feel you already knew me...I am very much like who I am online. That is not to say any of you would trust the first time yu met me...but after spending any time with me...you would see that who I am online...is shown in my actions and words in RL.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I agree with much of what RJ has said, it can be done but usually goes in stages. I would have to say I once would have been sceptical but have been proven wrong. That being said though I agree with Netzach that generally it is more likely to happen with someone you are going to meet in RL at some point in time.

In meeting F for one it was a matter of developing more trust than I had for anyone before meeting. Part of that was in getting to know him and believing him to be who he said he was, but then he also backed that up by not only sending me significant amounts of money for things he wanted done (and I knew he was not rich), but also by giving me access to him in all ways, giving me access to his family and friends, his place of employment, his address and phone number etc. Someone with much to hide about who they really were would not have been able to do that, nor would they have done it if the trust was not felt from them also.

But yes, many do use the word lightly and speak of giving trust immediately and without foundation. Even with us the trust when we met was already enormous, but as you say, over time in RL that has the chance to deepen and extend beyond all boundaries as well as allowing for the other to be a fallible human the same as ourselves.

Catalina http://www.smilies4you.de/content/sonstige/a43.gif

 

[graceanne]

Ok, as to friends. I, also, have made some wonderful friends online. Frankly, I've made friends online that are better than my real life friends. But I'm not a trusting person. To tell the truth there is no one that I've loved who hasn't fucked me at one point or the other. And I don't mean in a good way. So, to tell the truth, when it comes to friends it's easier to trust them online, cause they live so far away that what they can do to hurt me is less.

I just could not trust a partner to the point of being willing to enter a D/s relationship with them if it wasn't r/l. And then in r/l it's not something that would happen quickly. It would take months and months of getting to know the person before I could trust them that much. If then. Frankly, even as much as I trust K, it's a struggle at times, because I have trained myself to be self reliant and self sufficiant. I learned at a very early age that the only person I can rely on is me, and at times it goes against everything I know, deep down, to put that much power in another persons hands. Am I making sense, or just rambling? I hate these meds.

 

[Mr Blonde]

DELUSIONAL

The internet is a place for some introspection and additional exposure to things outside our immediate experience. It is fine for people to "explore" online and do some role-playing as long as they keep it straight in their head that it's what they are doing.

But we have people in this forum who post to regular threads and share anecdotes from their online role-playing as if it is relevant contributions. They have "collared slaves" they have never met or a "husband" they have never seen, and want to mix this fiction into other people's attempts to understand/appreciate reality. I put them on ignore.

I can take a woman's hand or look into her eyes and tell if the trust exists to proceed with a BDSM relationship. How do you measure such things with an online relationship? Without real life contact, you begin to imagine and idealize this disembodied person beyond anything you would perceive when face-to-face.

It just doesn't wash.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: DELUSIONAL

The internet is a place for some introspection and additional exposure to things outside our immediate experience. It is fine for people to "explore" online and do some role-playing as long as they keep it straight in their head that it's what they are doing.

But we have people in this forum who post to regular threads and share anecdotes from their online role-playing as if it is relevant contributions. They have "collared slaves" they have never met or a "husband" they have never seen, and want to mix this fiction into other people's attempts to understand/appreciate reality. I put them on ignore.

I can take a woman's hand or look into her eyes and tell if the trust exists to proceed with a BDSM relationship. How do you measure such things with an online relationship? Without real life contact, you begin to imagine and idealize this disembodied person beyond anything you would perceive when face-to-face.

It just doesn't wash.

Once again, it's hard to disagree with your points. They are always excellent. However, I met my first Dom online and after a couple of years we moved that relationship into real life. And it continued from there for a couple more years.

I've met at least a dozen Lit'sters in real life and our friendships have continued to this day, too. No, I don't have coffee with them weekly, but I've met them and know them in the flesh, as well as in their own words.

But I've gone a bit off topic and for that, Incubus' sub, I apologize.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: DELUSIONAL

How do you measure such things with an online relationship? Without real life contact, you begin to imagine and idealize this disembodied person beyond anything you would perceive when face-to-face.

It just doesn't wash.

I agree online is not the same as face to face, despite many feeling it is just as real. I have been involved online and enjoyed the connection, the excitement of the contact, the anticipation, but it was never in a sense of this was the full dimension of the relationship as it would then have needed to be going heavily into the fantasy realm. I never had a lot of time for online play, actually could not get into it....discussing wants, needs, possible limits and thoughts were more important and fulfilling.

That being said though, I do believe it is possible to find that person online and know the connection is going beyond that to be something far deeper. Admittedly I think for more people rather than less there is that temptation to idealize and form a fantasy vision around the online partner, but it is not always the case. Often those that do that will also do it in a r/l face to face relationship until something happens to shock them back to reality.

For us we talked honestly, spoke of things we had not discussed with anyone else, many of them not being very flattering or lust inducing. There was a knowing, an acknowledgement the other was human, not some glossy fantasy figure perfect in every way. It was not something we had ever imagined doing, was completely out of character for both of us, but it was and is real. We have never doubted whether we made the right decision and from the moment we met in r/l it seemed our lives were incomplete without the other. We accept the other for good and bad and these last two weeks apart have not been any easier than any other time we have had to be apart due to work or family..if anything each time it gets harder to be apart.

Catalina

 

[graceanne]

I think that online is a good way to start a relationship. Not the only good way, but that you can start a strong relationship with online play and talk. Frankly, it's a great way to get to know people, because its easier to talk to others online. It's safer to be yourself then when your with someone. You have the a safety-net (pun intended) of telephone line.

 

[Desdemona]

Yes, there's a total difference between online and real life for me in terms of bdsm relationships. I don't mind meeting someone online, but for me, it has to be progressed to real life pretty quickly. If all we're going to have is online or phone interactions, what's the point? Fantasy is fun, but reality is ever so much more intense, in my experience. Besides, for me to give that sort of trust, I have to see the person, look into their eyes, feel their skin next to mine so that I know what we have is real and not smoke and mirrors.

Now, in terms of friendships, I can't say it any better than ADR did earlier. I have some friends that I trust completely online such as our lovely Rose. And thank the gods that she doesn't want me to be her Domme!

 

[incubus'_sub]

Friendships yes. I too feel I've made friends with people here and have a pretty good feel for who they are. These friendships enrich my life, make it more interesting but the emotional commitment is not at the same level as I was referring to in my original post.

Our discussions here are relaxed and frank, we can be ourselves because we have nothing to lose or gain from making up stories or presenting a false front to impress. I think that is the difference between seeking friends & seeking a partner, Master or sub.

Thanks for your input everyone.

 

[fallon2]

For me

once I have given a sub my trust then that is it until they disappoint me and then I will let that person know and eventually have them fade from my life.
One of the many things that I DO like about on line relationships is the fact that IF they gain my trust then I am much more inclined to want to meet them and fulfill their desires and needs.
Some subs are STILL good friends that I care about and like very much. Some times the "passion" that is associated with on line relationships in the beginning run their course and when that happens a discussion regarding that does come up and then we decide to either continue or part as friends.
I have to have their honesty and if a sub should tell me that they are no longer interested in having a relationship on line that is fine but I want them to tell me that. I have rarely, if ever, get mad for anger is often wasted on both individuals.
It is through trust that one will eventually find their true kindred spirit. Do not be afraid to reach out in your search for your desired Master or sub.

 

[incubus'_sub]

Ah, now that was the point I was trying to get across. To my thinking, the attitude of playing along until they disappoint you is not trust, it's wishful thinking. There's nothing wrong with that at all, it's a good thing to hope & believe but the glaring fact is that despite declarations of complete honesty from anyone on the other end of computer or phone (where meeting in real life is going to be unlikely), you'll never really know.

 

[Mr Blonde]

Everyone defines "friend" differently and it is possible for people to become friends through the internet. No argument there.

But BDSM specifically involves power exchange and/or consensual pain. I'd like to hear how someone can dominate another person they have never met in real life. And how would a sadist get satisfaction from typing in a chatroom or saying words over the phone? So what "trust" can exist in these situations?

 

[graceanne]

Everyone defines "friend" differently and it is possible for people to become friends through the internet. No argument there.

But BDSM specifically involves power exchange and/or consensual pain. I'd like to hear how someone can dominate another person they have never met in real life. And how would a sadist get satisfaction from typing in a chatroom or saying words over the phone? So what "trust" can exist in these situations?

There's that too. I don't get what people are getting out of cyber relationships. For the sadist, for instance. What do you really get out of pretending to do something to her? Or even if you have her to do it to herself or something, you aren't there watching her expression, or whatever it is you like to watch while you're inflicting pain. And for the sub, well i"m sorry it's not the same if you do it to yourself, even at the command of another. It's not. I just don't understand the point of an online relationship, except as maybe a way to fill in the crack while you wait for a r/l one.

 

[incubus'_sub]

This thread was prompted by sincere declarations of deep trust not only existing but being very important, in a couple of other recent threads. My question came from the realisation that the posters were involved only in online relationships & it concerns me that they truly believe in said trust. I feel that this is a recipe for emotional disaster as they are investing so much of themselves in an illusion.

There seem to be so many problems we could make a TV special "When Online Relationships Go Bad". Yet, everytime the real lifers make a comment, the onliners immediately state that it is real, that there is great trust & commitment. Please, all reason says otherwise, so how can it be?

 

[graceanne]

Well, as much as I don't get it, I also don't think it's my place to decide what's real to someone else.

 

[Netzach]

Ah, now that was the point I was trying to get across. To my thinking, the attitude of playing along until they disappoint you is not trust, it's wishful thinking. There's nothing wrong with that at all, it's a good thing to hope & believe but the glaring fact is that despite declarations of complete honesty from anyone on the other end of computer or phone (where meeting in real life is going to be unlikely), you'll never really know.

Well, I don't think I'll ever know in real life either. Does anyone? Look at the success rates for most relationships, the vast amounts of lying and cheating that go on with nary a keyboard in sight.

That said, is online BDSM the equivalent of offline? Uh, no.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Well, as much as I don't get it, I also don't think it's my place to decide what's real to someone else.

Congrats.

 

[Mr Blonde]

Congrats.

Thanks for gracing this thread with your presence.

I remember you being big on the military and having strong opinions about what outsiders were justified to say. So how about if I join you at a message board for ex-military people? When your fellow veterans are talking about trusting people in a foxhole, the horrors of wartime and trying to survive, I can chime in with experiences I had while playing "American Soldier" video game and impose my worthless opinions on people. When I am not unquestioningly welcomed into the ex-military community, I will blast everyone for being judgmental and act wounded that my contribution was not welcomed.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Thanks for gracing this thread with your presence.

I remember you being big on the military and having strong opinions about what outsiders were justified to say. So how about if I join you at a message board for ex-military people? When your fellow veterans are talking about trusting people in a foxhole, the horrors of wartime and trying to survive, I can chime in with experiences I had while playing "American Soldier" video game and impose my worthless opinions on people. When I am not unquestioningly welcomed into the ex-military community, I will blast everyone for being judgmental and act wounded that my contribution was not welcomed.

Pardon me Blonde, but i don't think i had anything to say, negative or otherwise, to you in my post. i simply congratulated grace for the simple realization "don't think it's my place to decide what's real to someone else. " This board has gone down the road of what's real and what's not too many times to count, or search.

If you have an issue with me, we can dance here, or take it to PM.

Your move.

 

[graceanne]

Pardon me Blonde, but i don't think i had anything to say, negative or otherwise, to you in my post. i simply congratulated grace for the simple realization "don't think it's my place to decide what's real to someone else. " This board has gone down the road of what's real and what's not too many times to count, or search.

If you have an issue with me, we can dance here, or take it to PM.

Your move.

I just want to say that if I'd seen where this was going, I'd have left this thread alone. Because you're right, it's not my place to decide what's 'real', no one has that right. If it makes the person in the relationship happy, the who cares what they call it, or if it's 'real'? And I apologize if anyone feels that I don't think their relationship 'real' just because it's online. I just don't understand how you can trust someone you've never physically met. That's all I meant to say about online relationships.