Is it possiable to be G/L and not be part of the culture?

[PoliteSuccubus]

As I was waking up this morning, thinking of the new pagan events that I was going to tell my daughter about, I realized that we go to more pagan events than we do GLB events.

The thing that brought this to mind is the upcoming Pagan Pride Day we are going to, when we didn't do anything for Gay Pride.

I just woke up so I'm going to leave the question as it lays, and come back to it later when I'm more awake.

 

[Sillyman]

Yeah, it happens all the time. Not everybody who believes something has the time or energy to become an activist over it. Now with you it's really just a matter of priorities. These things happen.

 

[ReBeLBeLLe]

Absolutely it's possible to be G/L and not be part of the culture.

I think you could even say that the term "closet" in a fashion could apply to one that is G/L and not a part of the culture.

I love everything there is about a relationship with a woman, but I keep those relationships personal and close to my heart. I don't go to pride events, or parades and I am in no way affiliated with any GLBT organization. I don't go to any G/L bars or area hangouts.

I do these things not because I don't want to associate with others that have the same interests as me, but because I have children in my home and no matter how accepting they, my family, and friends are of my lifestyle choices I DO have to face facts that ALL are not as accepting. While I have made the choice to act upon what I feel is natural, I don't think I have the right to force it on my children and their peers so I keep a very low profile of my choice in partners.

Both NoOtherName and I discussed this at length and as sillyman has noted we all don't pick up causes, whether it be our heritage, religion, or whatever. We may feel passionate about these things, but feel not the need to carry around a flag stating it. This happens across all spectrums of personal preferences and choices. Just because a person is of a specific ethnicity or religion it does not mean that they necessarily feel the need to join in specific organizations or partake in "promotional" activities.

This does not mean that we are hiding or ashamed of who we are, it just means that we're busy living our lives the best we can with our own priorities. Let's face it, many of the changes over the past few years that have resulted in the freedoms in our personal lives that we can now enjoy are directly attributable to those who were and still are brave enough to put themselves at the forefront.

FS & NoN

 

[PoliteSuccubus]

That was very well done, thank you.

With the people I know it runs the gamit between one of them wearing a gold thong on a float to not doing anything different.

But most of the ones I know that don't do anything different are bi.

For example, there was the GLBT Prom up here and most of our gay friends went, most of our bi friends didn't.

 

[sexy-girl]

Yeah, it happens all the time. Not everybody who believes something has the time or energy to become an activist over it. Now with you it's really just a matter of priorities. These things happen.

i've hardly ever even met another gay person ... i've never been to a gay bar or club and i've never been on a march

i try to be a activist on other things instead so far i haven't felt a need to explore being an activist with gay issues

 

[deliciously_naughty]

I found it a lot easier to participate in the "culture" when I lived in major cities. As some of you know, I had to move home to afford finishing my degree. My parents know about my sexuality, but they live in a small town. There isn't really a community here for me to be part of. However, I'm hardly quiet about it (see my britney/madonna kiss rant in my car dealer's waiting room).

 

[Etoile]

Sure, it's possible. Some people choose to participate, and some don't. For some people it's an integral part of who they are, for some it's just a fact of life and not as important in their self-definition. I go to my local gay clubs and have rainbow stickers on my car, but that's about it.

 

[april-wine]

It's possible....I live my life, no different than anyone else straight or gay....I just happen to have a same sex partner....

 

[Pookie]

I think it's very possible. Some people feel driven to participate in whatever way they can. Others don't feel the personal need to get as involved. Some have natural talents and abilities that lend themselves to being involved in organizations. It depends on the person.

 

[Queersetti]

As I was waking up this morning, thinking of the new pagan events that I was going to tell my daughter about, I realized that we go to more pagan events than we do GLB events.

The thing that brought this to mind is the upcoming Pagan Pride Day we are going to, when we didn't do anything for Gay Pride.

I just woke up so I'm going to leave the question as it lays, and come back to it later when I'm more awake.

I think that it is not only possible, I would venture to guess that the majority of gays and lesbians live very private lives and do not participate in the gay culture or community.

 

[D's mariposa]

I think it is. I'm not involved in our local community for personal reasons. Basically, when I was first realizing that I like the ladies too, I did try to get more involved in the community. At that time, the local community wasn't very supportive of bisexuals. The general mood was that I was saying that I was bisexual because I was too much of a coward to be a real lesbian or because it was trendy and cool to bisexual. When another bi friend and I asked our local GLBT (which at that time had no "B" in the title) community center for a bi women's group we were told that it wasn't neccessary; we could go the lesbian's group instead. Which I tried, but the tolerance wasn't real impressive. We even asked if we could met twice a month there on a night when nothing else was happening and we would volunteer to be the moderator. Again, no go, it wasn't neccessary.

10 years later, there's a bi men's group there, and a bi women's group there and mixed group there, and an attitude of "Why didn't we think of this sooner!!"

So anyhoo, now that the community is more welcoming and I'd feel more comfortable getting invovled, I don't have the time. I'd love to, but I have a job and a sweetie and a mortgage and elderly grandparents to help take care of..

 

[MzChrista]

As far as being part of a culture I would consider myself part of BDSM culture more than lesbian culture.

 

[glamorilla]

if you're gay,lesbian,bi~sexual or trans you're part of the community no matter how you celebrate it.

 

[Rhys]

if you're gay,lesbian,bi~sexual or trans you're part of the community no matter how you celebrate it.

I think you are part of the community but not necessarily part of THE community.

I certainly read more than I used to but as far as open participation with any of it? Well, I participate here thats as good as it gets for the moment.

 

[glamorilla]

the real thing is much better.

 

[Rhys]

the real thing is much better.

So I hear

 

[LarzMachine]

I don't participate (or however you want to put it) in the "community" because I'm not much of an activist and I refuse to define myself by something so narrow as sexuality.

 

[Etoile]

I don't participate (or however you want to put it) in the "community" because I'm not much of an activist and I refuse to define myself by something so narrow as sexuality.

The trouble with refusing to define oneself is that society will do it for you anyway.

 

[69forever]

Let's see. Live in a small, bigoted town, have a secure job, being gay, lesbian or bi, where if you fart they know on the other side of town how it smelt, before the odor passes.

Yeah there are a lot of people who have no choice but to not be part of "the community". But they are. I am. I cann't even outwardly defend gay bashing jokes without exposing myself.

Does it suck to be in that position? You fuckin bet it does.

 

[69forever]

Although I do have a rainbow sticker in my window.

And the only other person around here who I am out with is
a very dear lesbian freind. Guess we've got our own little community for support.

 

[LarzMachine]

The trouble with refusing to define oneself is that society will do it for you anyway.

Small-minded idiots can define me however they want. It doesn't really matter either way. I know what I am (aside from some "issues") and what anyone calls me or labels me as is their deal, not mine. It's also fun to prove them wrong when they try to label someone as weird as me.

Besides, labels (especially ones on a single facet of one's being) just trivialize people by making them interchangeable units. Just because I choose a certain flavor of partner doesn't mean that's all there is to me, any more than my listening to GWAR defines me in any meaningful sense.

 

[Never]

Yes, as long as you're not openly gay.

 

[LarzMachine]

Yes, as long as you're not openly gay.

Why be open to anyone but your friends? There's no real reason to flaunt your sexual preference, regardless of who you fuck, because it really isn't anyone's business.

 

[Never]

LarzMachine:
"Why be open to anyone but your friends?”

I said, "openly gay." I didn't specifically left the word "open" undefined because I believe that the majority of what people consider openness will work. As for why, there are as many reasons as there are people.

“There's no real reason to flaunt your sexual preference, regardless of who you fuck, because it really isn't anyone's business.”

There are tons of ‘real’ reasons for people to flaunt. I don’t think your conclusion is the logical extension of your premise either. ‘You have no reason to tell people X because they have no right to know X’ seems like odd logic to me. Say I break my arm tomorrow, my mother has no ‘right’ to know, but I can think of several good reasons why I should tell her.

I find the terms, ‘isn’t anyone’s business’, ‘mind your own business’, and the like to be fascinating. In a society that thrives on the exchange of information, demarcating what information is or isn’t the rightful concern or responsibility of another is always tricky. Humans are social creatures and we spend a vast amount of our time trying to interest others in things that aren’t their ‘business’ – namely, ourselves.

I think most queers have internalized a double standard. How is being in a gay pride parade any more flaunting sexual preference than having a wedding? At work, at school, or on the town, the majority of straight women I’ve met have no problem telling me about their husbands, boyfriends, lovers, and the men they find attractive. It’s not because they’re shoving their sexuality in my face or because I’m prying, it’s because it’s important information to them and (they’re hoping) interesting information to me. That’s what the vast majority of human communication is about and none of it is anyone’s “business”.

The difference being is the perceived explicitness of queerness verses straightness. If my friend walks into a restaurant alone and tells the server, “I need a table for two, my husband will be joining me.” there’s no problem. If I walk into a restaurant alone and tell the server, “I need a table for two, my girlfriend will be joining me.” then I’ve committed the social sin of “too much information.” I’m not giving emotionally neutral information but information that 1. might cause a negative emotional response 2. is unusual to hear. Meaning, I’ve filled the technical requirement for being rude. Again, humans are social creatures, and even an open-minded person might question my character. Social customs are built to minimizing discomfort when dealing with other people and my action can only be taken as a conscious dismissal of that principle.

I’m going to make a comparison that I hope won’t offend anyone. That is between queers in the US and women in fundamentalist societies that require them to wear burkas. In one, hiding one’s queerness is the norm, in the other, hiding one’s femininity is the norm. In neither, is hiding one’s sexuality or gender the norm. Only for those that belong to the ‘other’ (and implicitly lesser) is covering up normal behavior. Most of what people call flaunting is no different than acting as the dominant group in society does.

 

[LarzMachine]

There are tons of ‘real’ reasons for people to flaunt.

There's a difference between mentioning basic information and flaunting it. Flaunting almost ANYTHING is considered rude in mixed company.

I don’t think your conclusion is the logical extension of your premise either. ‘You have no reason to tell people X because they have no right to know X’ seems like odd logic to me.

What is so weird about this logic? If they have no right to know, and no need to know, then there IS no reason to tell them. If you WANT to, go ahead, but it's hardly something they need to know. The fact is, in this country we have the right to privacy, which means unless someone actually NEEDS the information, they have no right to it.

Say I break my arm tomorrow, my mother has no ‘right’ to know, but I can think of several good reasons why I should tell her.

A broken arm is somewhat newsworthy. It is something that just happened that will have a real, direct effect on your life in general. Your sexual preference doesn't really have much of an effect on anything but who you sleep with.

I find the terms, ‘isn’t anyone’s business’, ‘mind your own business’, and the like to be fascinating. In a society that thrives on the exchange of information, demarcating what information is or isn’t the rightful concern or responsibility of another is always tricky. Humans are social creatures and we spend a vast amount of our time trying to interest others in things that aren’t their ‘business’ – namely, ourselves.

And if they have no desire to know or if the information in question is completely irrelevant? I don't drone on and on about my BDSM activities because it has no place in most conversations. The same goes for my other quirks, since I haven't run into a situation where anything I do in the sack or with my family has any bearing on work since 1997, when the fact that I hunt and know how to shoot (and more importantly, I can cope with killing something if necessary -- you don't need bodyguards who can't pull a trigger) helped in my bodyguard job. If I'm among like-minded people, I mention it and we might discuss it, but otherwise it's irrelevant.

I think most queers have internalized a double standard. How is being in a gay pride parade any more flaunting sexual preference than having a wedding? At work, at school, or on the town, the majority of straight women I’ve met have no problem telling me about their husbands, boyfriends, lovers, and the men they find attractive. It’s not because they’re shoving their sexuality in my face or because I’m prying, it’s because it’s important information to them and (they’re hoping) interesting information to me. That’s what the vast majority of human communication is about and none of it is anyone’s “business”.

You're right about the weddings and gay pride parades being equal more or less (there are differences in scale, but there are differences in the scale of weddings too). That brings us to the next point...
These straight women don't run around wearing "Het Pride" shirts or demanding everyone around them drop everything to talk about their husbands, do they? If they do, they're assholes, which is a completely different problem. There are assholes in every group. Most people only share details about their families with friends anyway. Besides, most people I know and regard as friends are actually pretty much OK with talk about your family regardless of its makeup. The ones who don't are bigots (or simply not friends), so fuck 'em.

The difference being is the perceived explicitness of queerness verses straightness. If my friend walks into a restaurant alone and tells the server, “I need a table for two, my husband will be joining me.” there’s no problem. If I walk into a restaurant alone and tell the server, “I need a table for two, my girlfriend will be joining me.” then I’ve committed the social sin of “too much information.” I’m not giving emotionally neutral information but information that 1. might cause a negative emotional response 2. is unusual to hear. Meaning, I’ve filled the technical requirement for being rude. Again, humans are social creatures, and even an open-minded person might question my character. Social customs are built to minimizing discomfort when dealing with other people and my action can only be taken as a conscious dismissal of that principle.

Most waiters (and other service professionals) I've run into don't care if you're straight, gay or Martian as long as you behave yourself and pay for your meal. Those who DO mind either keep it to themselves or get in trouble with the bosses.

I’m going to make a comparison that I hope won’t offend anyone. That is between queers in the US and women in fundamentalist societies that require them to wear burkas. In one, hiding one’s queerness is the norm, in the other, hiding one’s femininity is the norm. In neither, is hiding one’s sexuality or gender the norm. Only for those that belong to the ‘other’ (and implicitly lesser) is covering up normal behavior. Most of what people call flaunting is no different than acting as the dominant group in society does.

I can make a better comparison: queers and religious people in this country. Both have something in their personality makeup that is at odds with what some people believe in or find acceptable. I don't care if someone worships Cthulhu[/] as long as it doesn't become the point of every bloody conversation. We've all had run-ins with christians (usually it's them, but I've had wiccans and other religions' devotees pull the same thing) who don't just mention offhand they happen to be christian, or make polite requests not to say "goddamn" or other offensive or blasphemous statements around them, but take every opportunity to make damn sure you know they're christian, and that theirs is The Way To Be, and fuck you if you don't like it, because their beliefs are here to stay. I don't mind the quiet christians in the least even though I have serious problems with the insanity they preach. I have a number of christian friends, and they don't try to convert me any more than I go out of my way to point out how ridiculous their religion is. Like I said, I don't care if you're a Cthulhu-worshipper as long as you don't come after me when you need a sacrifice, but ramming your beliefs or other behaviors down my throat is a completely different story. In other words, there's a difference between mentioning offhand you're GLBT and becoming an activist like those annoying fanatics.

There are bigots in the world. Accept reality. No matter how much you complain about double standards and everything else, you will always have bigoted assholes and no amount of acceptance or tolerance policies will change this -- in fact, it has exactly the opposite effect on the really serious bigots. Black people became full citizens with full civil rights forty years ago but the Klan is still going strong. This country has had religious freedom for over 200 years now and there are still fundamentalists who honestly believe their god should be endorsed in courthouses and try their damnedest to rid the country of everyone of a different religion. Look at Alabama and Tennessee for good recent examples. Both the Klan and the fundamentalists use the fact that this country allows their opponents equal rights as "proof" of how horrible their opposition is -- they see it as handouts for whining losers who had to cry to the government for special treatment. Unfortunately, queer activists are giving exactly this impression to most of the opposition. By going out of their way to make their queerness everyone's business regardless of whether they want to hear it or not, they're giving the impression that they want special priviledges rather than equality. It isn't true, but that's the perception.

Want an example? Even a lot of my queer-friendly friends (and a couple of gay ones too) believe Matthew Shepard brought it on himself to a degree -- NOT for being gay, but for being so OBNOXIOUSLY gay. They agree killing the guy was incredibly excessive and agree the guys who did it deserve their sentences, but don't view it as a hate crime any more than they'd view killing Carrot-Top, that kid on the new "what can I get for under three bucks" Burger King commercial, or the guy who ran for Minneapolis Mayor on the White Working Man's Party platform a couple years back as hate crimes.