Is it even possible for black writers to achieve great success in America?

[LJ_Reloaded]

When will any story with a black protagonist (written by a black author, that is) ever come anything close to the levels of success enjoyed by the likes of Twilight or Harry Potter?

As soon as one comes anywhere close to the silver screen, Hollywood wants to whitewash it with white characters replacing black ones. Case in point: LA Banks' Vampire Huntress series. If the author or their family don't agree to whitewash it, it never gets produced, or few people come to see it.

Even if someone were to write a new story on par with Star Wars or Harry Potter, if it has a black protagonist what chance does it have of going very far in America? Or do black authors have to wait until white people are no longer a majority in order to become as spectacularly successful as white authors?

Okay, so you say I'm wrong. Show me a black author whose story has become even half as successful as JK Rawlings. Or even Tolkien.

 

[lovecraft68]

When will any story with a black protagonist (written by a black author, that is) ever come anything close to the levels of success enjoyed by the likes of Twilight or Harry Potter?

As soon as one comes anywhere close to the silver screen, Hollywood wants to whitewash it with white characters replacing black ones. Case in point: LA Banks' Vampire Huntress series. If the author or their family don't agree to whitewash it, it never gets produced, or few people come to see it.

Even if someone were to write a new story on par with Star Wars or Harry Potter, if it has a black protagonist what chance does it have of going very far in America? Or do black authors have to wait until white people are no longer a majority in order to become as spectacularly successful as white authors?

Okay, so you say I'm wrong. Show me a black author whose story has become even half as successful as JK Rawlings. Or even Tolkien.

In Daredevil Kingpin was supposed to be white and Marvel made him black.

Nick fury is supposed to be white but they made him black in Iron Man.

Catwoman was white Halle Berry is Black.

If memory serves me they Made Alicia masters black in Fantastic four as well.

Now Blade was black and they kept him black, know why? so people who are always looking for racism wouldn't start yelling.

Man pack it in with these threads will you?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Black just doesn't read as a universal everyman type to most white readers. In the same way, women don't read as universal everymen to most male readers, no het man wants to read about gay relationships, OR about real lesbians.

The reason black characters work in comic books is that they can be written with white (and middle-class) sensibilities, and rely on their appearance to remind people that they are black. They don't need mannerisms that point out the difference.

I don't know if anyone has read my story "Meeting Robby" but the POV character, Elaine, is black. I am well aware that we read with a white default in our heads, and I doubt that many folk think of Elaine as anything but white. I would need to hammer on the subject of her race to make readers aware of it. Her color has almost nothing to do with the plot though, it's about her first lesbian love affair, and that's where the plot goes.

Either we write about people BEING black, or we let readers make the safe assumption.

 

[LJ_Reloaded]

In Daredevil Kingpin was supposed to be white and Marvel made him black.

Nick fury is supposed to be white but they made him black in Iron Man.

Catwoman was white Halle Berry is Black.

If memory serves me they Made Alicia masters black in Fantastic four as well.

Now Blade was black and they kept him black, know why? so people who are always looking for racism wouldn't start yelling.

Man pack it in with these threads will you?

The reason these threads are necessary is all about one basic question that I posted and you didn't see:

1) How much money did these movies make?
2) Which of these movies were WRITTEN by a black author?

 

[LJ_Reloaded]

Black just doesn't read as a universal everyman type to most white readers. In the same way, women don't read as universal everymen to most male readers, no het man wants to read about gay relationships, OR about real lesbians.

The reason black characters work in comic books is that they can be written with white (and middle-class) sensibilities, and rely on their appearance to remind people that they are black. They don't need mannerisms that point out the difference.

I don't know if anyone has read my story "Meeting Robby" but the POV character, Elaine, is black. I am well aware that we read with a white default in our heads, and I doubt that many folk think of Elaine as anything but white. I would need to hammer on the subject of her race to make readers aware of it. Her color has almost nothing to do with the plot though, it's about her first lesbian love affair, and that's where the plot goes.

Either we write about people BEING black, or we let readers make the safe assumption.

So the success of these stories do depend on not dispelling the idea of the "white default", or in comic books, having them relate to white sensibilities?

That would support my theory that black people can't get away with being non-white and make JK Rawlings level money until America becomes more racially multi-lateral...

 

[PennLady]

The reason these threads are necessary is all about one basic question that I posted and you didn't see:

1) How much money did these movies make?
2) Which of these movies were WRITTEN by a black author?

Some of those movies made a lot of money, others didn't, and as far as I know it had little to do with the race of the characters. Some of them just sucked, like Catwoman.

Wouldn't the question be whether any black authors have written any books like this? I'm not sure how much the usual fantasy experience, which is usually heavy on the Anglo-Saxon tradition, resonates with anyone who isn't. And in fact, here is a Salon.com article on that very topic.

http://www.salon.com/2011/11/09/if_tolkien_were_black/

And if you're looking for a more classic -- although not as big as Harry Potter -- sf/f series with a minority hero, check out "A Wizard of Earthsea" by Urusla K Le Guin.

If a book or movie will sell, then someone whose job it is to sell such a thing and make a profit, will do it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

So the success of these stories do depend on not dispelling the idea of the "white default", or in comic books, having them relate to white sensibilities?

That would support my theory that black people can't get away with being non-white and make JK Rawlings level money until America becomes more racially multi-lateral...

It really, really sucks. It's maddening and frustrating.

Confederacy of Dunces comes to mind. There's a black character who is really authentic, and was very popular. People said he stole the book away from the MC-- but the MC was still a white guy.

I have a co-writing project that comes along in fits and starts, and one of the interesting things about it, is the way the other writers expect my (also black woman) main character to behave in solid middle class ways. I get some pleasure in giving her a suspicious and prickly personality, resistant to what all these white folks around her expect of her. My co-writers were very surprised by this reaction of hers-- as I have witnessed in real life, too.

And if you're looking for a more classic -- although not as big as Harry Potter -- sf/f series with a minority hero, check out "A Wizard of Earthsea" by Urusla K Le Guin.

Ged, the hero, is supposed to be a "red" man. It's mentioned once or twice in the text, and utterly ignored in the marketing departments:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/59/AWizardOfEarthsea%281stEd%29.jpg/200px-AWizardOfEarthsea%281stEd%29.jpg

http://photo.goodreads.com/books/1179964018l/979688.jpg

Wizard of Earthsea absolutely failed in its treatment of women, by the way, and I have never been able to completely forgive Le Guin for that. Especially since she was such a good writer.

 

[DehviantGirl]

Yes, it's possible for any author to achieve great success in America. Write a great story and people will read it, buy it, film it, you name it.

"How Stella Got Her Groove Back", is a great story written by a fantastic author. You know she is black.

Toni Morrison A Nobel Laureate... pretty sure that qualifies as success.

In the 2nd book of Diane Duvall's series (Night Reigns) the strongest, oldest, wisest immortal is black. Dreds so long they reach his hot, tight ass ( ). I always enjoy when an author creates variety in their cast of characters AND includes those elements that are unique to them (heritage, etc.), things that make me identify even more with the character.

I'm not a man but I absolutely LOVE to read a man's inner dialog in a book during sex, and orgasm - his thoughts, musings, observations, sensations, etc.

I'm not a gay man either but I absolutely love reading m/m erotica, not a lesbian either and oooooh yum, love me some steamy sensual feminine play.

I can say that I have never wondered what the skin color is of an author when I read their story. Just wondered where they've been, marveled (or not) at how they write, you name it. But skin color? Nah, just isn't where my head is at and I'd say if that's true for me it's true for many Americans.

--oops. I have to go. I'm not an author and I just know and old curmudgeon or two will pounce on me here and remind me of that on this thread, but well, I just wanted to offer a readers perspective to the question.

 

[PennLady]

Wizard of Earthsea absolutely failed in its treatment of women, by the way, and I have never been able to completely forgive Le Guin for that. Especially since she was such a good writer.

Well, it's been a long time since I read it and in truth, a lot of fantasy tends to relegate women to queen, princess, and good/bad witch roles, so I suppose I'm used to it. I'm not saying LeGuin did that, just that it certainly happens.

I realize that Ged wasn't black or Asian or whatever, and perhaps it wasn't harped on in the text b/c LeGuin didn't think it was important. I've no idea -- I haven't read much about the series or her, except for the bits when SciFi did a (reputedly) bad adaptation.

 

[JackLuis]

Here is George Lucas talking about his new Movie "Red Tails" about the Tuskegee airmen. He had a little trouble selling a movie about black people.

Very close to the topic.

 

[riverj]

Bingo

Yes, it's possible for any author to achieve great success in America. Write a great story and people will read it, buy it, film it, you name it.

Bingo... the free market will decide what is good literature and what isn't.

And perhaps Hollywood will add a tilt...

I rarely frequent the Black Author's section of the bookstore down south here anymore....

 

[PennLady]

Here is George Lucas talking about his new Movie "Red Tails" about the Tuskegee airmen. He had a little trouble selling a movie about black people.

Very close to the topic.

I haven't seen this, but I'll be curious if it was because it focuses on black people, or because most Hollywood studios are skittish of doing/releasing anything that doesn't have a built-in audience, like a comic or whatever.

 

[Etaski]

I would agree that the examples given portray things that are more Anglosaxon tradition in their origin. I'd question whether a gifted black author would even really want to write something like Harry Potter at all.

As for "JK Rowling level of money in America"...I'm reminded of a black speaker I listened to several years ago (my Google-fu has failed, I cannot find the man's name again).

He discussed some of the history here, how slaves would sometimes be able to teach each other how to read in secret, and from that viewpoint education had a real danger level attached to it and therefore those dedicated enough to learn it valued it highly. After Emancipation it continued for a while in the same vein--segregated black classrooms really had to have a dedicated teacher to make it happen because it was very hard to maintain schools with the lop-sided economic status they had.

When the public schools were forced to be integrated in the 1960s, it had a weird effect: white schools/teachers were assumed to be better than black (not necessarily true), and white values remained dominant/default.

Rather like an "Anglosized" Native American (taught Western philosophy and English in English/American schools) was often "rejected" by their own people, a similar thing happened with the blacks: those that worked hard to learn the "white education" were not as welcomed in their own cultures...while, guess who have been? Who are the gifted blacks who have risen to the top in the last 50 years?

The athletes, the dancers, and the singers. The ones who were really the strongest and had the greatest impact on morale and feelings of self-worth during the time of the slaves. Their skills and gifts did not require the "white education" to become what they are.

Some of those celebrities make more money than JK Rowling's books ever did.

They are the skills most valued by the African-American culture, most accepted by their own.

And remember, this was an academic African-American speaker I was listening to. My true regret is that I can't name my source (yet--now I'm going to want to find out who this is).

Frankly, a black author is fighting an uphill battle in every direction, not just white culture but their own families and communities as well. If writing in all its forms were as valued among blacks as it is with whites, then I have no doubt a black author could rise up the same way.

But it's not just the whites having an effect. There's usually more to the story, as this speaker taught me.

EDIT: Okay, found him. The speaker was Charles Ogletree, and he wrote All Deliberate Speed: Reflections of the First Half-Century of Brown vs Brown

 

[LJ_Reloaded]

Some of those movies made a lot of money, others didn't, and as far as I know it had little to do with the race of the characters. Some of them just sucked, like Catwoman.

Wouldn't the question be whether any black authors have written any books like this? I'm not sure how much the usual fantasy experience, which is usually heavy on the Anglo-Saxon tradition, resonates with anyone who isn't. And in fact, here is a Salon.com article on that very topic.

http://www.salon.com/2011/11/09/if_tolkien_were_black/

And if you're looking for a more classic -- although not as big as Harry Potter -- sf/f series with a minority hero, check out "A Wizard of Earthsea" by Urusla K Le Guin.

If a book or movie will sell, then someone whose job it is to sell such a thing and make a profit, will do it.

Earthsea made it to the Sci-Fi channel and I'm not sure if you saw that, but it was seriously whitewashed. Cite: http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2004/12/a_whitewashed_earthsea.html

I actually read “The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms" (referenced in that article). From what I heard the author did some backpedaling on whether her characters were black; that aside, I can guarantee you that this Locus Award-winning novel will never see a TV or movie screen adaptation, and if by some wild assed chance it does, it'll be whitewashed or a box office flop.

White America, by and large, will absolutely not go for that. You may say I'm sour grapes or whatever but history will back me up on this for the next 40 years, minimum.

 

[LJ_Reloaded]

It really, really sucks. It's maddening and frustrating.

Confederacy of Dunces comes to mind. There's a black character who is really authentic, and was very popular. People said he stole the book away from the MC-- but the MC was still a white guy.

I have a co-writing project that comes along in fits and starts, and one of the interesting things about it, is the way the other writers expect my (also black woman) main character to behave in solid middle class ways. I get some pleasure in giving her a suspicious and prickly personality, resistant to what all these white folks around her expect of her. My co-writers were very surprised by this reaction of hers-- as I have witnessed in real life, too.

Ged, the hero, is supposed to be a "red" man. It's mentioned once or twice in the text, and utterly ignored in the marketing departments:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/59/AWizardOfEarthsea%281stEd%29.jpg/200px-AWizardOfEarthsea%281stEd%29.jpg

http://photo.goodreads.com/books/1179964018l/979688.jpg

Wizard of Earthsea absolutely failed in its treatment of women, by the way, and I have never been able to completely forgive Le Guin for that. Especially since she was such a good writer.

Aw, dang, I was just pointing that out, and you beat me to it.

Ya know, I don't even get the point with people's aversion to gay and lesbian themes. It blended perfectly in shows like the new Battle Star Galactica. I'm not sure about literary appearances but I'm sure there's a thousand books where GLBT people show up and you are like "Wait, that person was GLBT? I didn't even notice..."

 

[TE999]

I haven't seen this, but I'll be curious if it was because it focuses on black people, or because most Hollywood studios are skittish of doing/releasing anything that doesn't have a built-in audience, like a comic or whatever.

Action is what sells in Hollywood and the Tuskegee Airmen kicked some serious ass once they got into combat. They flew the P-51 Mustang (among other fighters), probably the best fighter plane of WWII and escorted the bombers pounding the Krauts. They had an excellent kill to loss record and the bomber crews referred to them as the 'Red Tailed Angels'.

If the movie balances the prejudice aspect with aerial action they'll have a winner.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Nobody has mentioned Alex Haley: Roots

 

[PennLady]

Earthsea made it to the Sci-Fi channel and I'm not sure if you saw that, but it was seriously whitewashed. Cite: http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2004/12/a_whitewashed_earthsea.html

I did not see it, although I did hear that it differed from the source material in quality and other ways and yes, I did see that they'd white washed it. What can I say? They didn't trust their audience. I think if it's done well, people will watch, and they won't care what the race of the characters are.

I actually read “The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms" (referenced in that article). From what I heard the author did some backpedaling on whether her characters were black; that aside, I can guarantee you that this Locus Award-winning novel will never see a TV or movie screen adaptation, and if by some wild assed chance it does, it'll be whitewashed or a box office flop.

You are likely right, but there are commercial reasons for this. SF/F does not generally fare well on television or even in movies, so networks will be skittish with that, and will do what they think needs doing to make it work. Fireflly is a good example of a great show that was sunk b/c the network had no patience. As for that author well, I can't say. It's a shame if that's true.

White America, by and large, will absolutely not go for that. You may say I'm sour grapes or whatever but history will back me up on this for the next 40 years, minimum.

Some of white America may not, even a large part. But this particular part will go for a good story well told, no matter the ethnicity of the characters.

 

[LJ_Reloaded]

Frankly, a black author is fighting an uphill battle in every direction, not just white culture but their own families and communities as well. If writing in all its forms were as valued among blacks as it is with whites, then I have no doubt a black author could rise up the same way.

But it's not just the whites having an effect. There's usually more to the story, as this speaker taught me.

There is no denying what you said. It's totally true.

Now that you mentioned that issue, there's also another problem that is worthy of being addressed. Argh.

I was lurking on the Black Science Fiction Society forums and the topic of most recommended black authors came up as usual. One particular guy who likes to hit on black women - and you know him if you're a veteran there - mentioned that he liked LA Banks and Octavia Butler but he never actually read their stories.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk143/faeini1/EmoticonVillageTriste27.gif
When black readers on a black science fiction forum don't even read the authors they're praising, Houston, we got a problem...

 

[Dream_Operator]

Is it even possible for black writers to achieve great success in America?

How many records did Michael Jackson sell? Or Jay Z? Beyonce? Puff Daddy? etc.

Are people only racist when it comes to the written word?

That really doesn't make any sense, does it.

 

[LJ_Reloaded]

How many records did Michael Jackson sell? Or Jay Z? Beyonce? Puff Daddy? etc.

Are people only racist when it comes to the written word?

That really doesn't make any sense, does it.

*looks up at the forum*

I thought this was the Author's Hangout. Not the singer's hangout, the rapper's hangout, etc. But that could just be my eyes.

 

[Dream_Operator]

*looks up at the forum*

I thought this was the Author's Hangout. Not the singer's hangout, the rapper's hangout, etc. But that could just be my eyes.

No, this thread is clearly the Racist Author's Hangout.

Why don't you answer, address the question I raised?

I'll ask it again since you've seemed to have ignored it:

Are people only racist when it comes to the written word?

And if so why?

 

[Etaski]

*looks up at the forum*

I thought this was the Author's Hangout. Not the singer's hangout, the rapper's hangout, etc. But that could just be my eyes.

Wow, that was a dickish thing to say...

And as I said in my post above, there are historical, cultural, and current reasons why things are not as you would have them to be, and those same reasons are also why the most-valued talents of the black community are not writing books and screenplays.

Take a listen to your own elders sometime (Charles Ogletree, I found the man I listened to). Academic thinkers exist and really talented black authors also exist. But the picture is more complex than you'd have it be as to why they are not at the top of the current culture. But the athletes, musicians, and dancers are at the top. Historically, it makes sense why this is. It's just not writing, and there's no impetus saying that it should be.

It will also not happen in your lifetime. It will take centuries for circumstances to change in this country to the point where the last 150 years will not matter as much to black authors.

Still...you trying to suggest the other cultures in the USA (melting pot, remember? Not just Anglo whites) are performing an active act of racism by not suddenly changing their own traditions and relating to what black authors write best about is an unreasonable expectation, and trying to guilt anyone into agreeing with you is an overused tactic.

How about simply accepting that their own traditions are just as important? Would you expect the Hispanic communities to suddenly appreciate and throw all their money at the Asian communities? No. It's the same thing here.

Your saying America needs to become more racially unilateral also counts for more than black and white. And there will always be the minority in any given country, whether it be culture, race, or religion.

 

[LJ_Repussified]

When will any story with a black protagonist (written by a black author, that is) ever come anything close to the levels of success enjoyed by the likes of Twilight or Harry Potter?

As soon as one comes anywhere close to the silver screen, Hollywood wants to whitewash it with white characters replacing black ones. Case in point: LA Banks' Vampire Huntress series. If the author or their family don't agree to whitewash it, it never gets produced, or few people come to see it.

Even if someone were to write a new story on par with Star Wars or Harry Potter, if it has a black protagonist what chance does it have of going very far in America? Or do black authors have to wait until white people are no longer a majority in order to become as spectacularly successful as white authors?

Okay, so you say I'm wrong. Show me a black author whose story has become even half as successful as JK Rawlings. Or even Tolkien.

Not a shitty writer like yourself.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Song of the South woulda been better with a black Uncle Remus, ditto for Mammy in GWTW. And the Chester Himes books needed a few black characters. Its an outrage, I say!