Is Israel in the Right?

Is Israel in the Right in their actions in Gaza and Lebanon?

  • Yes, they are in the right.

    Votes: 32 58.2%
  • No, they are not in the right.

    Votes: 23 41.8%

  • Total voters
    55
  • Poll closed .
one assessment from the NY Times, as to how it's going

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/weekinreview/30kifner.html?ref=weekinreview

Israel Is Powerful, Yes. But Not So Invincible.

By JOHN KIFNER
Published: July 30, 2006
NO exit?

As the bloodbath in Lebanon spilled past its second week — with at least 400 Lebanese dead and many more presumed buried in rubble; some 800,000 refugees, nearly a quarter of the population, on the run; and the fragile nation’s infrastructure shattered — there was no easy way out for either Israel or Hezbollah, the combatants locked in what each saw as a deadly existential struggle.

The very clear winner, for the moment at least, was Hezbollah and its leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah. (Unless, of course, Israel succeeds in its efforts to assassinate him.) As the only Arab leader seen to have defeated the Israelis — on the basis of their withdrawal in 2000 from an 18-year occupation — he already enjoyed wide respect. Now, with Hezbollah standing firm and inflicting casualties, he has become a folk hero across the Muslim world, apparently uniting Sunnis and Shiites.

The standoff stunned Israel, whose offensive came in response to a Hezbollah cross-border raid that resulted in the death of eight Israeli soldiers and the capture of two others.

Central to the embattled nation’s sense of survivability is the idea of its invincibility. Its intelligence knows everything, the mythology goes, and no army dare stand against it. In truth, Israel has, in part, been lucky in its enemies, mostly Arab regimes with armies suitable mainly for keeping their own populace in check.

What was clearly conceived two weeks ago as a quick battle using air power and strikes on specific targets with commando raids to degrade Hezbollah’s resources, particularly its stores of thousands of rockets, has turned into a crisis.

“Israel is far from a decisive victory and its main objectives have not been achieved,” wrote the country’s most respected military analyst, Zeev Schiff, in the daily Haaretz.

Hezbollah, Sheik Nasrallah has said, “needs only to survive to win.” That seemed increasingly likely by week’s end. Deeply entwined among the Shiite community that makes up perhaps 40 percent of Lebanon’s population, it would be impossible to eliminate. But there is more. Although the Israelis announced within days that they had destroyed 50 percent of Hezbollah’s munitions, the guerrillas have continued to rain more than a hundred rockets a day on Israel.
 
cantdog said:
Clearly Dr. Rice is not negotiating. Syria's plans to control Lebanon are in abeyance, but until the invasion and bombings, the Syria question had polarized Lebanese politics into a state of deadlock. Hizb'Allah is not negotiating. Israel isn't. Hamas is willing to, they say, but that's very easy to say, since Israel wouldn't give them a civil word on a bet. Israel is arming and training Kurds in northern Iraq, and we support that as well, destabilizing as it is, because we always support whatever Israel does without reflection. In Iraq we continue to cripple hospitals and raid mosques during services. In the UN we veto every constructive idea.

No, I'll concede I don't see a wise policy in the whole mess, whatever their goals are, any of them, unless all they want is more carnage, more resentment and hatred, or a chance to blood their troops. They are succeeding at those things. Officers are building their resumes and becoming promoted, too. Political parties are scoring points at home by appearing resolute. Maybe that's the most important thing?

As all your posts are CantD - Excellent - and I read this thread with much interest.

As an aside and to be respectfully silly because I appreciate analogical satire? Your post about "if someone steals your pants, who do you go to?" Was simply priceless.
 
Not only politically, but even militarily, I'd like to also point out that the ground attack as opposed to the air strikes, came a cropper in Bint Jbail, hardly a stone's throw from home.

Israel, after claiming to have control of the small southern city of Bint Jbail, merely a few kilometers inside Lebanon, lost at least 13 soldiers there recently. The official count of nine IDF deaths is widely believed in Beirut to be false.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert had his justice minister, Haim Ramon, tell people the other day that everyone in southern Lebanon will be regarded as a terrorist, as their military prepared to employ "huge firepower" against Hezbollah.

"What we should do in southern Lebanon is employ huge firepower before a ground force goes in," said Ramon at a security cabinet meeting headed by Olmert, "Everyone in southern Lebanon is a terrorist and is connected to Hezbollah. Our great advantage vis-a-vis Hezbollah is our firepower, not in face-to-face combat."

Quite. It would be a disaster for Israel to face one Bint Jbail after another. There is now a short grace period for the women, children and elderly "terrorists" there who can't leave. Lebanese Red Crescent workers have said that they can't get there to evacuate people, because they are too afraid more of their ambulances will be bombed by war planes.

So it will be another "shock and awe" before rolling in the ground troops. As in Fallujah, which the U.S. military has failed to have control of at any time following the leveling of that city. They have gotten the reporters to call it "Al Anbar province, Iraq" instead of Fallujah, but Fallujah has had fairly constant war news of fighting and, um, "clashes" since April 2004. Do a search with Al Anbar.

Israel's Vietnam--their failed 18 year occupation of southern Lebanon which ended in 2000, is fresh in their minds. Three weeks and the invasion is already bogging down. Even the frequency of airstrikes has slowed.

Losing, in every way.


Pure said:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/weekinreview/30kifner.html?ref=weekinreview

Israel Is Powerful, Yes. But Not So Invincible.

By JOHN KIFNER
Published: July 30, 2006
NO exit?

As the bloodbath in Lebanon spilled past its second week — with at least 400 Lebanese dead and many more presumed buried in rubble; some 800,000 refugees, nearly a quarter of the population, on the run; and the fragile nation’s infrastructure shattered — there was no easy way out for either Israel or Hezbollah, the combatants locked in what each saw as a deadly existential struggle.

The very clear winner, for the moment at least, was Hezbollah and its leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah. (Unless, of course, Israel succeeds in its efforts to assassinate him.) As the only Arab leader seen to have defeated the Israelis — on the basis of their withdrawal in 2000 from an 18-year occupation — he already enjoyed wide respect. Now, with Hezbollah standing firm and inflicting casualties, he has become a folk hero across the Muslim world, apparently uniting Sunnis and Shiites.

The standoff stunned Israel, whose offensive came in response to a Hezbollah cross-border raid that resulted in the death of eight Israeli soldiers and the capture of two others.

Central to the embattled nation’s sense of survivability is the idea of its invincibility. Its intelligence knows everything, the mythology goes, and no army dare stand against it. In truth, Israel has, in part, been lucky in its enemies, mostly Arab regimes with armies suitable mainly for keeping their own populace in check.

What was clearly conceived two weeks ago as a quick battle using air power and strikes on specific targets with commando raids to degrade Hezbollah’s resources, particularly its stores of thousands of rockets, has turned into a crisis.

“Israel is far from a decisive victory and its main objectives have not been achieved,” wrote the country’s most respected military analyst, Zeev Schiff, in the daily Haaretz.

Hezbollah, Sheik Nasrallah has said, “needs only to survive to win.” That seemed increasingly likely by week’s end. Deeply entwined among the Shiite community that makes up perhaps 40 percent of Lebanon’s population, it would be impossible to eliminate. But there is more. Although the Israelis announced within days that they had destroyed 50 percent of Hezbollah’s munitions, the guerrillas have continued to rain more than a hundred rockets a day on Israel.
 
Last edited:
Liar said:
Short does not equal simple. And the most stringent answer to the question would be:

Yes. And at the same time no. But yes. And still; no. On the other hand yes. But no. Or yes. Or maybe...no. What was the question again?
I - I don't remember...
 
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