Is Israel in the Right?

[Dumpling]

Simple question, do you believe Israel is in the right in their actions in Gaza and Lebanon?

I guess once you got the right Percentage you closed the Poll!??

 

[cantdog]

Well, they probably don't look a hell of a lot like a gang of thugs when they fix the roads, build the schools, undertake the water projects, build the hospitals, and so on. I don't believe the Mafia is very well known for that kind of activity, dude.

Shi'a have had to take a back seat, despite their plurality in the country. They are the poorer Lebanese. The government, even when it was effective, which was a while back, now, gave scant attention or prefence to the Shi'a. After the war, despite immediate promises from the government, the South was cast on its own resources in the rebuilding.

You may think they're thugs and doubt that they have real support, but I'm here to tell you, that assessment is flawed, from the POV of the Shi'a of Lebanon.

Lebanese have an undoubted Mediterranean culture, Box, and when that many Lebanese are Hizb'Allah supporters, two million out of 3.8 million, the majority of Lebanese, total, are Hizb'Allah supporters. The Amal party in Parliament is heavily supported by Hizb'Allah, and that party is the main Shi'i voice in the Parliament.

If the Israelis or Dr. Rice want the soldiers released, they will have to talk to Hizb'Allah, who has them. Talking to other people is posing for the cameras. If a man has your pants, asking other people to return them is just appealing to the crowd. If you want your damn pants, talk to the man who has them.

If Israel or Dr. Rice want Hizb'Allah to withdraw a distance from the border, it won't be much to the point to ask the Mayor of Edinburgh. A party which holds the loyalty of close to 60% of the country is not a shmoe with no standing.

The central government has been singularly ineffective since the assassination. It is a mere spectator in the fighting, while it is soldiers of Hizb'Allah who are opposing the invasion. The estimates of most observers is that the fighters of Hizb'Allah outnumber the Lebanese Army, and many in the Lebanese Army support Hizb'Allah, themselves. President Lahoud (a Maronite Christian, as all Presidents of Lebanon must be, according to the Lebanese constitution), is supposed to be the man in charge of foreign policy, but he is seen as Syria's man, and he has little authority. The ruling coalition in Parliament doesn't include him, but is headed up by Saad Hariri, son of the murdered former Prime Minister. Saad Hariri and Future Tide, his group, are very heavily backed by the United States.

And the United States is supporting the invasion, and Dr. Rice is saying, right in Lebanon, that the time has come for a new middle east.

Remember the pirates of Tripoli? They were state sponsored, supported by the government of the place. The only way they were finally stopped was colonization of Tripoli by the West. That was in the nineteenth century, but one historical solution to state sponsored terrorism is colonization. Is the US contemplating that solution to Hizb'Allah?

 

[Pure]

well, box, these hoary wwii analogies aren't worth much; they're the creations of GWB's speechwriters. they've been trotted out since the 1950s and generally lead to foolish policies (for example, Stalin was treated as a Hitler.)

the idea is to have the other side be 'black' so that we're 'white' and so everything we do is under the mantle of God's blessing.

but consider this. if Hitler is to Germany and Nasrallah is to S. Lebanon, then the land is going to have to be thoroughly devastated, then occupied for some time. a kind of 'denazification' would have to be applied, to find and install friendly shi'ias and imprison the others.

In 1982 Israel DID occupy all of south Lebanon. Yet it did not accomplish this, instead it helped inspire Hezbollah resistance which ultimately caused Israel to leave.

So far it looks like Israel is not going to go far into Lebanon. Nor will the US enter. So there is no one to carry out your grandiose dream.
I don't think there will be an 'on to Beirut'; that was tried. Israeli air power will be like American bomber power over Germany: not adequate to do 'regime change' without action on the land below.

Actually your mention of the mafia has something to it. The mafia has held sicily for decades. It's hard to 'root out' just because it's so embedded and is a kind of government. PERHAPS, now, it's less strong.--i've seen interviews--the Sicilians are not so interested in the Mafia, and want to be modern and rich. If so, the mafia will fade because there are no grievances. Get it? There is the same possibility for the IRA.

When political avenues open, there is less need for violence.

I think it's obvious that the S. Lebanon population is exactly the opposite; they are sorely and freshly aggrieved. It's unclear to me if Hez can retain its seats in the parliament (weren't some of those guys kidnapped?)

and Hezbollah will appear as a wealthy savior. (and by the way, i don't think the Saudis will do a fucking thing.).

Not only that, but the Lebanon central gov. is aggrieved and has been made to look like impotent bozos. I don't think they're going to be eager to go hunting Hezbollah for the Israelis. LESS than before.

Box, you unfortunately don't have the facts to back up your analogies. Labeling Saddam a Hitler led to errors--e.g., expecting a welcome or no resistance. GWB did what Dad didn't: he went on to Baghdad. Thinking it was Paris (or maybe Berlin). Mission still not accomplished.

So labelling Nasrallah or Ahmadinejah 'Hitler' does not lead to a very accurate analysis, it's simply cheerleading for the American leaders.

 

[Friedrich N]

I guess once you got the right Percentage you closed the Poll!??

Your sarcastic tone is out of place as I don't have a dog in this race. I simply set the poll for a 5 day run time and that time has passed, sorry you missed your opportunity to vote.

I am neither for nor against either group. The one more deserving will win, ultimately, no matter what other factors try to play into their contest. History will decide which side that was.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I guess once you got the right Percentage you closed the Poll!??

The poll was open for a week from 7-18 through 7-23. At one time, the pro-Israel vote was higher than it is now.

 

[Friedrich N]

The poll was open for a week from 7-18 through 7-25. At one time, the pro-Israel vote was higher than it is now.

Actually, I think I set it for five days, but yes, it had a time limit, I don't think one can simply close them, can they?

 

[Pure]

you set the closing date when the poll is set up. i always set for 30 days. that's enough of a sample. (i don't think one can easily can the date set).

 

[Huckleman2000]

Does anyone know, how do they determine who are civilian deaths in Lebanon?

 

[Boxlicker101]

Well, they probably don't look a hell of a lot like a gang of thugs when they fix the roads, build the schools, undertake the water projects, build the hospitals, and so on. I don't believe the Mafia is very well known for that kind of activity, dude.

Shi'a have had to take a back seat, despite their plurality in the country. They are the poorer Lebanese. The government, even when it was effective, which was a while back, now, gave scant attention or prefence to the Shi'a. After the war, despite immediate promises from the government, the South was cast on its own resources in the rebuilding.

You may think they're thugs and doubt that they have real support, but I'm here to tell you, that assessment is flawed, from the POV of the Shi'a of Lebanon.

Lebanese have an undoubted Mediterranean culture, Box, and when that many Lebanese are Hizb'Allah supporters, two million out of 3.8 million, the majority of Lebanese, total, are Hizb'Allah supporters. The Amal party in Parliament is heavily supported by Hizb'Allah, and that party is the main Shi'i voice in the Parliament.

If the Israelis or Dr. Rice want the soldiers released, they will have to talk to Hizb'Allah, who has them. Talking to other people is posing for the cameras. If a man has your pants, asking other people to return them is just appealing to the crowd. If you want your damn pants, talk to the man who has them.

If Israel or Dr. Rice want Hizb'Allah to withdraw a distance from the border, it won't be much to the point to ask the Mayor of Edinburgh. A party which holds the loyalty of close to 60% of the country is not a shmoe with no standing.

The central government has been singularly ineffective since the assassination. It is a mere spectator in the fighting, while it is soldiers of Hizb'Allah who are opposing the invasion. The estimates of most observers is that the fighters of Hizb'Allah outnumber the Lebanese Army, and many in the Lebanese Army support Hizb'Allah, themselves. President Lahoud (a Maronite Christian, as all Presidents of Lebanon must be, according to the Lebanese constitution), is supposed to be the man in charge of foreign policy, but he is seen as Syria's man, and he has little authority. The ruling coalition in Parliament doesn't include him, but is headed up by Saad Hariri, son of the murdered former Prime Minister. Saad Hariri and Future Tide, his group, are very heavily backed by the United States.

And the United States is supporting the invasion, and Dr. Rice is saying, right in Lebanon, that the time has come for a new middle east.

Remember the pirates of Tripoli? They were state sponsored, supported by the government of the place. The only way they were finally stopped was colonization of Tripoli by the West. That was in the nineteenth century, but one historical solution to state sponsored terrorism is colonization. Is the US contemplating that solution to Hizb'Allah?

I am more or less aware of the popularity of Hez. in southern Leb., although I wonder if they will be as popular after their presence and their attacks on Is. have led to the current catastrophe. I rhink they are thugs because they act like thugs, and I presume the citizebs of Is. have a similar opinion.

I'm aware that Leb. has a Med. culture but Hez. is based in Iran, which is far from the Med. I doubt that Hez. has the support of all the Shia, including those in the northern part of the country. Certainly they are not all genocidists.

I am aware of the Barbary Pirates. Nominally part of the Ottoman Empire, they raided European shipping and cities until the early 19th century. Their area was the modern nations of Tunisia, Algiers and Morocco. When the Bey? of Tripoli declared war on the US, a short war followed, with an American victory. That is the source of the second line of the Marine Hymn. The other nations of Europe followed the American lead and ended the depredations of the rest of the lot. France and, to a lesser extant, Spain went on to conquer and colonize the whole area.

I doubt if Is. or anybody else, except Syria, wants to colonize Leb. All Is. wants is to be able to live in peace, without having their neighbors abducting their citizens or shooting at them. To do so, it they have to destroy all of Hez., that is what they will try to do.

To get back to the original question, Yes, I believe Is. is in the right in Leb. They may have committed some excesses, but their goal is to have for themselves what every other country in the world wants to have for themselves.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Cant, are you sure about those Shia population numbers in Leb?

As a point of information, the mafia at one time did affect to undertake activities that would make it appear to be a "social service organization" in the context of the era. That was back when there was a large Italian immigrant population. The Black Panthers have done the same in more recent times. In the 1960s some of the purely criminal urban street gangs affected to do the same for a brief period, but did not sustain it.

Hes. is probably much closer to a de-facto government than these entities were. Box is correct that their goal is the extinguishment of Israel, and I suspect there is much truth to his allegations regarding their genocidal inclinations toward the Jews. The rhetoric of state-controlled media throughout the region suggests that this inclination is widespread in governments and Islamic populations, including the Shia of south Leb.

 

[hotstuff82]

Lebanon has had six years to evict Hezbollah and has failed to do so. Actually, they are more of an occupying force but they dominate the southern part of the country to such a degree that they have been elected to the legislature.

The Bloc Quebecois is made up of citizens of Quebec, not of outsiders who have moved in and taken over.

If you have a hospital and you install rocket launchers on the roof and store weapons inside, it is a military target. See the link to the Geneva Convention in my previous post.

I'm aware that Hezbollah is not Lebanon. They are not Lebanese and are actually an occupying force, and a client of Iran. The army of Lebanon is not strong enough to evict them but maybe a two sided attack with the Lebanese on the north and Israil on the south might succeed.

The destruction of bridges and the airport is to prevent the resupply of weapons by Iran and Syria. This is a legit military tactic.

LOL. Israel had 20 years to leave Lebanon. They were in violation of UN resolution 425 I believe when they occupied parts of lebanon for 20 years. Please dont apply rules to countries that you aren't willing to apply to Israel.

Hezbollah is lebanese. They are an armed political party. They tried negotiating with Israel for the release of civilian prisoners that Israel had held captive (once again against UN resolutions) but Israel refused.

As far as the news is concerned early reports claimed that Israel actually crossed the border and that's what led to this. However, the news is now reporting that Israel accuses Hezbollah of crossing the border. So you're free to choose who you want to believe.

Talking about outsiders moving in and taking over.. ever wondered how israel was formed?

 

[hotstuff82]

Gandhi once said, "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"

Over here Israel has overreacted. Latest I've read is that Israel is going to use depleted Uranium bombs from the US and UK. What's even sad is that they are not making any promise to clean up after they are done. The US last used these dirty bombs in the Gulf War. Women are still giving birth to stillborn children due to the radiation. By the UN charter you're supposed to clean up after yourself. Israel and the US reek of arrogance.

 

[Boxlicker101]

well, box, these hoary wwii analogies aren't worth much; they're the creations of GWB's speechwriters. they've been trotted out since the 1950s and generally lead to foolish policies (for example, Stalin was treated as a Hitler.)

the idea is to have the other side be 'black' so that we're 'white' and so everything we do is under the mantle of God's blessing.

but consider this. if Hitler is to Germany and Nasrallah is to S. Lebanon, then the land is going to have to be thoroughly devastated, then occupied for some time. a kind of 'denazification' would have to be applied, to find and install friendly shi'ias and imprison the others.

In 1982 Israel DID occupy all of south Lebanon. Yet it did not accomplish this, instead it helped inspire Hezbollah resistance which ultimately caused Israel to leave.

So far it looks like Israel is not going to go far into Lebanon. Nor will the US enter. So there is no one to carry out your grandiose dream.
I don't think there will be an 'on to Beirut'; that was tried. Israeli air power will be like American bomber power over Germany: not adequate to do 'regime change' without action on the land below.

Actually your mention of the mafia has something to it. The mafia has held sicily for decades. It's hard to 'root out' just because it's so embedded and is a kind of government. PERHAPS, now, it's less strong.--i've seen interviews--the Sicilians are not so interested in the Mafia, and want to be modern and rich. If so, the mafia will fade because there are no grievances. Get it? There is the same possibility for the IRA.

When political avenues open, there is less need for violence.

I think it's obvious that the S. Lebanon population is exactly the opposite; they are sorely and freshly aggrieved. It's unclear to me if Hez can retain its seats in the parliament (weren't some of those guys kidnapped?)

and Hezbollah will appear as a wealthy savior. (and by the way, i don't think the Saudis will do a fucking thing.).

Not only that, but the Lebanon central gov. is aggrieved and has been made to look like impotent bozos. I don't think they're going to be eager to go hunting Hezbollah for the Israelis. LESS than before.

Box, you unfortunately don't have the facts to back up your analogies. Labeling Saddam a Hitler led to errors--e.g., expecting a welcome or no resistance. GWB did what Dad didn't: he went on to Baghdad. Thinking it was Paris (or maybe Berlin). Mission still not accomplished.

So labelling Nasrallah or Ahmadinejah 'Hitler' does not lead to a very accurate analysis, it's simply cheerleading for the American leaders.

I'm not the one who started making the WW2 comparisons and I have never compared Saddam to Hitler. Until now, I don't believe I even mentioned him. This thread is about Israel and Hamas and Hez. I did compare the devestation in Leb. to the devestation in the Axis countries because both were caused by following a leader, or leaders, who brought it upon the country. I am not citing or quoting anybody, by the way, just offering my own opinions.

Stalin was never treated as "a Hitler" unles you want to say that "hitler" is a word meaning "cruel, imperialistic dictator". As for your comparison of Hitler to Nasrallah, you may be right.

The stated goal of Is. is to go far enough into Leb. to kill as many of Hez. as they can and to disarm them. So far, that's what they are doing, but it is hard to tell just yet what the result will be.

I have no "grandiose dreams". I would certainly never expect that air power alone would subjue anybody, unless the nation using it was prepared to destroy everything there. I would hope that would not be necessary although it may be in some places.

I absolutely agree that a political solution is the best. To quote Churchill, "Better jaw, jaw, jaw, than war, war, war." Is. really wants to live at peace but Hez. has no interest in anything but genocide. That is not my own opinion; it is their own pronouncement.

I don't know what the Saudis will do. They have pledged money to aid in rebuilding but that remains to be seen.

There is no real equivalent to Hitler. I would not label Ahm. as a hitler because he is more of a figurehead. The real power in Iran is the Mullahs. They are cruel dictators, and genocidal, but I don't know how expansionist they are.

I'm not really cheerleading for anybody. I don't expect the US to get involved unless Iran does. I think Iran believes that too.

Huckleman was wondering how they determine civilian deaths. I wonder too. In Is. it's easy. The military is in uniform. In south Leb. it's not so easy, and it's partly a matter of definition. What is a soldier, to use a broad definition. Okay, it's a member of an organized military or para-military. Hez. is such a group but who is a member of Hez. Certainly those who launch the rockets or who brandish rifles and shout "Allah akbar!" What about those who store rockets or other weapons in their homes? What about the families of those people? It's not really all that easy. I would refer to children as civilians but I don't know beyond that.

 

[cantdog]

I love the Friedrich N bit about the more deserving always being the winner... and he uses the word "history" in the next sentence, too.

Roxanne...Let's assume the estimates of two million supporters are wrong, and I mean 'way wrong. Let's say they're only one million strong. I think, out of a country with 3.8, 1 is still an overwhelming number. I think that that kind of proportion, be it fifty-some-odd percent or more like only thirty percent, either way, makes a goal like "driving Hisb'Allah from Lebanon" or any subset of it complete moonshine. Refugee numbers are being reported right now which are climbing to and past the half-million mark. Lotta dues for two captured guys. The lower you want to set the "support for H" figure, the higher is the proportion of non-supporters who are targets and victims in Lebanon. If you set the number of H supporters at only six men and a woman, then the other 3.8 million people in the country are innocent victims of the Israeli attack. I leave the proportion of supporters figure to your personal taste, consequently. I have no stake in it.

It's the duck test. Does it quack? You dismiss the Hezbollah as "appearing to be" a social service organization. So long as you aren't Israel, they have built hospitals, run mobile clinics, undertaken infrastructure projects, taken care of water needs, rebuilt homes and bridges. That's quacking.

The US government does some of this here, you know, infrastructure, and when I was a child we had the "stated goal" of destroying all Communists and bringing their countries down hard all over the world. We were pretty rabid and intolerant about communists, and we sent armies to places to "drive them out."

From the POV of America, we were a benign (mostly, unless you were brown or darker) government, and from the POV of a citizen of Quang Tri or Hanoi, Tirana or Havana, we probably didn't appear so benign.

Resistance to Israel is an idea, like anti-Communism. You don't get to shoot an idea, merely by shooting everyone who has the idea today. What we have to ask ourselves, as citizens, is what we are trying to actually accomplish by all this. I say it looks by the duck test to be an empire. I think Iraq looks like empire building, and I think this does, too. We or the Israelis may not actually administer Haiti, or Lebanon, or Iraq, once the dust of invasion settles, but we will not be satisfied until we have the ultimate say in who gets "elected" or who gets to run the places, however it be accomplished.

Israel is colonizing, in this sense, Palestine. They administer some, and they let others do that in other parts, but when those others elected the "wrong" government, they re-invaded. The parallel is pretty close with regard to Lebanon.

As citizens, do we want an empire in the middle east?

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I suppose it is not surprising that people get very tetchy in a thread like this. Unfortunate, but not surprising.


I was asking about the Shia population of Leb, since you seem to have some detailed information about it, not for speculation about what an opinion poll would show there. My impression based on things I've read elsewhere is that 2 million sounds high, but I don't know.

"Hes. is probably much closer to a de-facto government than these entities were." - me

 

[NoJo]

I have close family in Israel, who emigrated there as refugees in the early 1940's. They are strongly opposed to Israel's current actions.

I think the problem with this thread's poll lies in the framing of the question: The issue is not one of right or wrong, it's the much more practical issue of life and death.

 

[cantdog]

I suppose it is not surprising that people get very tetchy in a thread like this. Unfortunate, but not surprising.


I was asking about the Shia population of Leb, since you seem to have some detailed information about it, not for speculation about what an opinion poll would show there. My impression based on things I've read elsewhere is that 2 million sounds high, but I don't know.

"Hes. is probably much closer to a de-facto government than these entities were." - me

Sorry, Roxanne. I did go overboard. Try cia.gov, their "Factbook." They list every country inthe world, and give demographics. That'll give you the Shi'a figure. Proportion of support for Hizb'Allah within the Shi'a is, of course, speculation. I only cite what I read from a quoted "State Department source" in an AP story, two million.

 

[Pure]

hi joe

right on.
moralizing is not to the point.
many pages ago, i suggested that the question was better thought of as 'is the action well considered?' 'will it advance Israel's interests?"

The US is entitled to ask the same question about its interests.

As you know, Hezbollah was born during the last occupation. This time its 'merely' a bombardment, except just along the border. IOW, Israel is less in a position to effect 'regime change' in the South.

Ironically, I think Lebanon's Christians, traditional allies of Israel, are in a weakened position.

Oh, as far as the US is concerned, this is a PR disaster, with pics of bodies killed by US bombs, etc.

While Israel has to protect itself, certain aggressive ventures, esp. those that extend the borders, make the country LESS defensible. That is why the idea of *withdrawing* to defensible borders is a good one. The implementation is a bit weird, if you've seen a map of the fence's route. But if the line was draw properly without so many squiggles, it would be a good idea.

 

[cantdog]

Pure, we don't see a lot of pics of bodies killed, not in the US.

[long boring story]
When I go camping, I encounter the common housefly, along with the rest of the insects. They aren't as dominant as they seem to be in town, but they are still there. The ones in the woods, though, are slower. They seem to be much easier to kill with a slap. It led me to speculate that the town flies had been bred for quickness of reaction, you know, because so many more people had been slapping 'em there, and only the quicker ones would survive. An idle Darwinian speculation, and one to which I don't think anyone should give much weight.

This death struggle of Israel with its neighbors seems a lot the same. The hostility of one side seems to rise to new heights to meet the hostility of the other. Hatred stokes hatred, ratcheting it up and up.

Humane observers, like we are, the ones thanking their lucky stars they don't have to live there in that hideous environment, can only stand appalled at the spectacle. We think there has to be some way to cut the knot. We find supporters in Israel, in the loyal opposition to the hard-line policies. Pure has cited, in this thread, a couple of articles from Ha'aretz written by that kind of Israeli, and there are many more, all the time.
[/long boring story]

When we consider how to bring all this mutual fury to an end, we conjure up certain ideas. They might not be workable, and usually we don't even bring 'em up. But mine, at least, start with at least a cease fire and a talk. I mean, whatever will do it, it'll have to start with a cease fire, and progress to a talk.

What kind of talk? There's the difficulty. Sadat seemed to have done a good one, but he paid a price for it. My feeling is, an open-handed and generous attitude might work, if it could be reciprocated, but how to engender such a thing? What would you say to begin it?

We have a certain amount of influence, we Americans, over there. But we now have it only with one side, because of our abysmal record of partisanship. The proposals of Dr. Rice in Lebanon do not, it seems to me, really sound like the sort of proposals which will help to cut the knot. Like Syria, like Israel, we have our own schemes of dominance in the region, and unlike Syria, we have no freedom of action to take a new line when the one we're on isn't serving us any longer. Not so long as we remain fettered to an unwavering support of whatever Israel decides to do next. There has to be a better way.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

CIA world factbook

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/le.html

Lebanon
Religions: Muslim 59.7% (Shi'a, Sunni, Druze, Isma'ilite, Alawite or Nusayri), Christian 39% (Maronite Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Melkite Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Syrian Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Syrian Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Chaldean, Assyrian, Copt, Protestant), other 1.3%
note: 17 religious sects recognized

Some bad news there: "cannabis cultivation dramatically reduced to 2,500 hectares in 2002"

 

[cantdog]

Oops, I guess I was moralizing. Damn.

The reason the poll asked the question that it did is because in America, we have a government which has, just last week in the House, mooted a resolution of "unwavering support of Israel." Spector, I think, has his name on it as a sponsor.

The question answers itself, in any ordinary context. When is any state in the right?

But the question has a meaning within the context of American politics.

 

[Pure]

as you know, cant, countries always dress up their actions, esp. abroad, in moral terms. France once spoke of its 'mission civilatrice'
(civilizing mission). the US in Iraq is 'spreading democracy.' the US supported "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan a couple decades back
(led by a certain Osama).

so i like to leave that aside, though of course i don't approve of massively slaughtering civilians (or even offing 500, as is now the case in Lebanon).

self defense, in most cases, is just; but the term is stretched. so i prefer to ask "is this is useful way of 'defending onself'?", e.g. the US sending soldiers to Grenada.

for US and Israeli actions, we can simply ask, "Is the country safer?"

 

[MzDeviancy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPrettyAss
Do you have personal knowledge of Zeb doing any of those things?



Well, It certainly sounded like you did. Zeb said in addressing Cantdog:


You are a mealy mouth ass aren't you? I bet you spit on me when I returned from Viet Nam.

And you butted in, saying:

I love how veterans of a war where they cut off the heads of Vietnamese and drove around with them tacked onto their jeeps, burnt down villages, and raped and killed Vietnamese women and girls seem to think you should be exempt from criticism. Did a lot of people die during the Vietnam War? Yes. Mainly Veitnamese. All so communist Russia couldn't increase its sphere of influence, and America could remain the neighbourhood big boy.

You know who should be given a medal? People who evaded the draft.

It certainly sounds to me like you are strongly implying that Zeb did these things you are describing. He is the specific veteran you are addressing or referring to, and you say "veterans of a war where they" Personally, I doubt if Zeb did any of them. I doubt if any Americans actually drove around with actual severed heads on their jeeps, either. You are probably one of those who will believe any propaganda that puts Americans in a bad light. I'm sure the Viet Cong did, though. Their tactics, among others were to terrorize the villagers into siding with them, and they had no comppunction about rape or arson or massacre to accomplish it, either.

You make me very tired. I'm not even going to attempt to further explain that paragraph to you as you clearly have a poor grasp of the English language and/or just like to read into any statement whatever you like to believe the person is saying.

As to the heads on jeeps being a myth, it was Yankee reporters who brought that back as news. I can see it's been conveniently forgotten by the right-wing. I'll be happy to ask my dad for details and for a good source of information on it, if you'd like.

 

[Liar]

Simple question, do you believe Israel is in the right in their actions in Gaza and Lebanon?

It's probably been said, but I don't have the energy to read through all the replies:

Do you call that a simple question?

 

[rgraham666]

How are we going to solve the problems in the Middle East when we can't even get this blasted thread to die?