Is feminism an INSULT to real women?

[Que]

duh... they'd not NEED TO, and that's the whole point. equality across the board = equal rights, equal respect, equal opportunities. if that existed, there wouldn't be any NEED for a fight for rights

No one can grant you equal respect you need to earn and deserve that. All the other things you're talking about are already a matter of law in this country you've just joined. There are entire buildings full of lawyers in Washing DC specifically devoted to suing employers and other people if they do anything like what you're suggesting is still happening in America. If you, in your travels through America this new adopted land of yours ever run across a woman who is actually held back by anyone male or female give them the number for the EEOC they will take care of it.

Did you know that it's an actual law in America that every employer in America has to actually post a poster from the equal employment opportunity commission prominently in the workplace with the number for people to call if they feel they have been discriminated against.

 

[KimGordon67]

No one can grant you equal respect you need to earn and deserve that. All the other things you're talking about are already a matter of law in this country you've just joined. Their entire buildings full of lawyers in Washing DC specifically devoted to suing employers and other people if they do anything like what you're suggesting is still happening in America. If you and your travels through America this new adopted land of yours ever run across a woman who is actually held back by anyone male or female give them the number for the EEOC they will take care of it.

'Society' =/= a legal system. It's weird that you seem to think it does (while Bot seems to believe that 'society' = the state), and that law (or in Bot's case, policies) is the sole area in which gender disparities exist and/or can be dealt with. I have no idea why someone would come that that conclusion. I don't really care, tbh ... it's just weird, and results in a curious tunnel vision.

Strange.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Either you can't even follow your own argument, or you're using the classic GB strategy ... if you can't handle someone's response to something you said, just deny having actually said it.

Not accepting your ascription isn’t denying anything I said.

I own every bit of what I said.

You are the one who associates hegemonic masculinity with harassing women.

Which is a man hating feminist spin on things if I ever saw one.

'can't be arsed' =/= 'can't'.

Yea....it is in this case.

Not a single feminist “true” or otherwise can name any rights men have that women don’t in the US or UK. Hell in really most of the western world.

You have to hit africa and islamic shit holes to get the legit patriarchy, but we all know feminist would NEVER say anything about that, diversity!

It’s only bad when white guys did it decades ago....

 

[Kirkrapine]

You are the one who associates hegemonic masculinity with harassing women.

Which is a man hating feminist spin on things if I ever saw one.

It is a perfectly sensible association.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I CAN provide evidence until the cows come home.
I'm CHOOSING not to.

Strong woman!!! We totally believe that’s why neither you nor any other “true” feminist can answer the hard shit like actually pointing out inequality ....

 

[Que]

LMAO. I don't personally know one single women who has received any of these benefits of 'affirmative action' of which you speak.

Funny, that.

That's how "privilege" is reputed to work, right? The recipient is unaware that have been favored. It is only through the eyes of those denied privilege that one can see their advantage.

Tell me: the university that you attended what percentage of the people who work in admissions are women as opposed to men? Tell me about the person heading that entire department is that a man or a woman?

Now let's discuss all of your past and present employers. How many of the HR departments are staffed by women? When sensitivity training is required who teaches that class I'm guessing a woman am I right? How about the diversity officer of your corporation that's probably a woman of color I would think. Head of HR? A woman?

This is not some great cabal of women getting together and deciding to keep men down but this is corporations and institutions exercising a little prophylactic preventative medicine. Just look at it cynically they just want to be able to say hey look the head of HR is a woman so I HR department can't possibly be discriminating against women. If you want to look at it from a more positive spin perhaps they feel that in the past their organization discriminate against women and in order to prevent that from happening again they thought they put a woman in charge because that woman would be more sensitive to the needs of women in the workplace such as chronic absenteeism which might have something to do the child care and other things while women are going to possibly need a little extra support from the company in that might very well be in the company's best interest in order to retain and keep good people who really can't come to work as often as men do.

None of that though is an environment where anything like what you and butters are claiming is an environment where what you are claiming can even occur.

I know you don't believe it because you're all girl power and believe that your every bit the man that any man could ever be but if women had to actually compete on a Level Playing Field where all of their test scores were taken with no gender tags assigned to review of those scores there's not a chance in hell that there would be half the women in the stem fields that there are now.

You're never going to achieve equity and you would actually hate equality of opportunity. Whether you believe that's true or not.

 

[BotanyBoy]

It is a perfectly sensible association.

For a man loathing feminist...

 

[Que]

On a positive note:

#notalladvertisers

https://youtu.be/x_HL0wiK4Zc

It would be nice if that Gillette ad was the absolute nadir of ads denigrating men and that it's all blue skies ahead. I found that clip in a town hall article.

 

[BotanyBoy]

You're never going to achieve equity and you would actually hate equality of opportunity. Whether you believe that's true or not.

They don’t, most feminist are NOT happy with equal opportunities.

Thus the rampant Marxism....they want equitable outcomes.

 

[Que]

'Society' =/= a legal system. It's weird that you seem to think it does (while Bot seems to believe that 'society' = the state), and that law (or in Bot's case, policies) is the sole area in which gender disparities exist and/or can be dealt with. I have no idea why someone would come that that conclusion. I don't really care, tbh ... it's just weird, and results in a curious tunnel vision.

Strange.

Absolutely not the tunnel vision is yours. You've been taught that you are a victim in a pressed so you think that everything you have in life you fought to achieve over these Herculean obstacles and you feel great about yourself.

I never look at a black guy in the workplace and assume that he was hired only because they needed to fill a diversity slot even though sometimes that's actually true. But you know what's never true?...no one ever hires a white male because they're short on white males. It never happens. Ever.

Nowisthetime is the most virulent racist on this board. She proudly reported walking into a Mexican food restaurant that a bunch of white people are eating at and she assumed because they're white they must be Trump supporters and Trump wants a while so he must hate blaxicans there for these white people hate Mexicans and have no business being in a Mexican food restaurant. She mean-mugged these white people until they looked away from the crazy black click who glared at them for no apparent reason. She actually proudly posted that as if that makes sense. She didn't talk to any of these people she didn't have any idea who these people are or what their belief structure is whether they were strong Hillary Clinton supporters or Trump supporters. She just assumed that white faces means Trump supporters. You can't get any more directly racist than that.

She, like you, has been indoctrinated in the girl power the patriarchy is keeping us down and all of that sort of nonsense but that's not her primary focus her primary phone because is that the white man be keeping her down. Because in the intersectionality of Oppression her Blackness is a bigger source of Pride then her being a woman. She reported that her mother told her that as a black woman she's going to have to work twice as hard for half the credit. You can just imagine how proud she must be that she is not a complete failure in life when she has such an uphill slog. Never mind that she's never had an uphill slog in her life about anything. Ask her ask her that identify specific time when someone held her back her personally didn't know let her get into school didn't give her a job actually grated her differently because she was black or a woman. I'm sure if you asked her she will also tell you that like you believed she was never given the benefit of the doubt because she was a woman. She was never given the benefit of a doubt because she was black. You don't see the Privileges that you are forwarded because you like to think that you got everywhere you got on your merits.

Maybe you did. Maybe she did. I have no idea.

I can guaran-damn-tee you that I've worked for and gotten everything that I've ever been given on my own merits. There are no white guy set aside programs no matter what they told you in your women's studies program. They do not exist. If anyone even thinks that such a thing is happening they get sued and they lose.

Walmart got in big trouble over this because they were not promoting the right number of women. Now you'd have to look at each individual case and say wait a minute this particular woman was definitely qualified and she was held back. That wasn't what they lost on they lost on statistics there weren't any women who went to the EEOC commission and show it Hey listen I was more qualified and had more time in the job than this guy had excellent attendance and yet they promoted him over me. Know the women were universally promoted by the courts simply because Walmart was not promoting enough women. Maybe they kept hiring a bunch of low-wage women who really didn't have the particular skill sets required to be in management.

Corporate fear of being sued is a real thing. Corporate diversity programs aimed at specifically hiring, retraining, and promoting women and minorities are a real thing. Pretending those are not a real thing is completely disingenuous of you.

 

[Que]

They don’t, most feminist are NOT happy with equal opportunities.

Thus the rampant Marxism....they want equitable outcomes.

Of course they don't. They keep acting like it's not important that equal opportunity has been the law of the land for their entire lifetimes most likely. I am 3 years older than that law, but it was well in effect long before I showed up in the workplace.

Their narrative depends on this secret cabal of rotarians giving each other the good old boy hookup and women in the workplace having no idea that they've been passed over for promotion and quietly sitting on their hands and not complaining about it.

Every time someone actually studies hey why is it that women don't make as much money as men it always comes back to the fact that men are willing to risk their lives they're willing to work hard and they show up and work more hours. Working more hours is the best way to get more money. You got to work at least the first 40 before you're going to get paid any overtime.

 

[Kirkrapine]

For a man loathing feminist...

For any rational person. Of course hegemonic masculinity is associated with harassing women. Has the #metoo movement taught you nothing?!

 

[Kirkrapine]

I never look at a black guy in the workplace and assume that he was hired only because they needed to fill a diversity slot even though sometimes that's actually true.

Oh, yes, you do.

 

[Kirkrapine]

Their narrative depends on this secret cabal of rotarians giving each other the good old boy hookup . . .

You can't possibly doubt that exists.

 

[Que]

You can't possibly doubt that exists.

If you actually believe that was true you would quit chasing ambulance and lurk in company break rooms because these are very lucrative settlements. You well know that the only thing left for lawyers in this field are class action lawsuits based on statistics on hiring retention and promotion you can't find a case where an individual woman has a plausible case anymore

 

[KimGordon67]

Not accepting your ascription isn’t denying anything I said.

I own every bit of what I said.

You are the one who associates hegemonic masculinity with harassing women.

Which is a man hating feminist spin on things if I ever saw one.



Yea....it is in this case.

Not a single feminist “true” or otherwise can name any rights men have that women don’t in the US or UK. Hell in really most of the western world.

You have to hit africa and islamic shit holes to get the legit patriarchy, but we all know feminist would NEVER say anything about that, diversity!

It’s only bad when white guys did it decades ago....

Yes, I do associate hegemonic masculinity with harrassing women - which is precisely what the Gillette ad also did, which was what you were originally talking about, and what I was responding too (i.e. you suggesting that what the ad was proposing was that men be 'feminine'). [Interesting that you assume that not wanting men to harrass women means one must hate men ... but whatever.]

And yes, plenty of feminists say things about Muslim patriarchy - mostly Muslim feminists, the people actually qualified to argue that position. I know you'll probably be surprised to learn that there ARE Muslim feminists ... but there are.

 

[KimGordon67]

Strong woman!!! We totally believe that’s why neither you nor any other “true” feminist can answer the hard shit like actually pointing out inequality ....

Whether or not you (by which I mean you specifically) 'believes' a fact doesn't alter it's status as a fact.

I'm not going to repeat the explanation for why I'm not repeating the explanations - clearly your comprehension skills aren't capable of grasping what I've said, so there's no point going over it.

 

[Kirkrapine]

Strong woman!!! We totally believe that’s why neither you nor any other “true” feminist can answer the hard shit like actually pointing out inequality ....

See post #257.

 

[Kirkrapine]

If you actually believe that was true you would quit chasing ambulance and lurk in company break rooms because these are very lucrative settlements. You well know that the only thing left for lawyers in this field are class action lawsuits based on statistics on hiring retention and promotion you can't find a case where an individual woman has a plausible case anymore

I don't know about that, I've never handled such a case. And we don't chase ambulances -- Bar rules forbid such things as hanging out in the emergency room and handing out your card. You have to wait a specified period of time after an accident before approaching the injured.

 

[KimGordon67]

Funny, that.

That's how "privilege" is reputed to work, right? The recipient is unaware that have been favored. It is only through the eyes of those denied privilege that one can see their advantage.

Tell me: the university that you attended what percentage of the people who work in admissions are women as opposed to men? Tell me about the person heading that entire department is that a man or a woman?

Now let's discuss all of your past and present employers. How many of the HR departments are staffed by women? When sensitivity training is required who teaches that class I'm guessing a woman am I right? How about the diversity officer of your corporation that's probably a woman of color I would think. Head of HR? A woman?

This is not some great cabal of women getting together and deciding to keep men down but this is corporations and institutions exercising a little prophylactic preventative medicine. Just look at it cynically they just want to be able to say hey look the head of HR is a woman so I HR department can't possibly be discriminating against women. If you want to look at it from a more positive spin perhaps they feel that in the past their organization discriminate against women and in order to prevent that from happening again they thought they put a woman in charge because that woman would be more sensitive to the needs of women in the workplace such as chronic absenteeism which might have something to do the child care and other things while women are going to possibly need a little extra support from the company in that might very well be in the company's best interest in order to retain and keep good people who really can't come to work as often as men do.

None of that though is an environment where anything like what you and butters are claiming is an environment where what you are claiming can even occur.

I know you don't believe it because you're all girl power and believe that your every bit the man that any man could ever be but if women had to actually compete on a Level Playing Field where all of their test scores were taken with no gender tags assigned to review of those scores there's not a chance in hell that there would be half the women in the stem fields that there are now.

You're never going to achieve equity and you would actually hate equality of opportunity. Whether you believe that's true or not.

We don't have 'sensitivity training' nor a 'diversity officer'.
I have no idea who heads HR - I can't say I actually noticed, although I do know when I was appointed, the HR person heading the committee was a man.
I've personally been involved in hirings through, the last time involving four appointments - two men and two women. Not out of any conscious push for a equal divide, simply because they were best suited to the positions we were filling. I've maybe taken two days off work for 'childcare' purposes in my 13 years of being a parent. OK, maybe a week in total if you count actually giving birth. In the sector I current administer, I would say a couple of the men and the childless women are the most chronically absent - me and one other person (a man) have non-adult children, and we're the two who are probably on-site the most.
Trust me, I am so far down the hierarchy compared to other people my age (both men and women), there is absolutely no way I've benefited from any 'positive discrimination'. So if you want to invent this narrative about me, feel free, but it's not even vaguely based in the truth.

 

[KimGordon67]

Absolutely not the tunnel vision is yours. You've been taught that you are a victim in a pressed so you think that everything you have in life you fought to achieve over these Herculean obstacles and you feel great about yourself.

I never look at a black guy in the workplace and assume that he was hired only because they needed to fill a diversity slot even though sometimes that's actually true. But you know what's never true?...no one ever hires a white male because they're short on white males. It never happens. Ever.

Nowisthetime is the most virulent racist on this board. She proudly reported walking into a Mexican food restaurant that a bunch of white people are eating at and she assumed because they're white they must be Trump supporters and Trump wants a while so he must hate blaxicans there for these white people hate Mexicans and have no business being in a Mexican food restaurant. She mean-mugged these white people until they looked away from the crazy black click who glared at them for no apparent reason. She actually proudly posted that as if that makes sense. She didn't talk to any of these people she didn't have any idea who these people are or what their belief structure is whether they were strong Hillary Clinton supporters or Trump supporters. She just assumed that white faces means Trump supporters. You can't get any more directly racist than that.

She, like you, has been indoctrinated in the girl power the patriarchy is keeping us down and all of that sort of nonsense but that's not her primary focus her primary phone because is that the white man be keeping her down. Because in the intersectionality of Oppression her Blackness is a bigger source of Pride then her being a woman. She reported that her mother told her that as a black woman she's going to have to work twice as hard for half the credit. You can just imagine how proud she must be that she is not a complete failure in life when she has such an uphill slog. Never mind that she's never had an uphill slog in her life about anything. Ask her ask her that identify specific time when someone held her back her personally didn't know let her get into school didn't give her a job actually grated her differently because she was black or a woman. I'm sure if you asked her she will also tell you that like you believed she was never given the benefit of the doubt because she was a woman. She was never given the benefit of a doubt because she was black. You don't see the Privileges that you are forwarded because you like to think that you got everywhere you got on your merits.

Maybe you did. Maybe she did. I have no idea.

I can guaran-damn-tee you that I've worked for and gotten everything that I've ever been given on my own merits. There are no white guy set aside programs no matter what they told you in your women's studies program. They do not exist. If anyone even thinks that such a thing is happening they get sued and they lose.

Walmart got in big trouble over this because they were not promoting the right number of women. Now you'd have to look at each individual case and say wait a minute this particular woman was definitely qualified and she was held back. That wasn't what they lost on they lost on statistics there weren't any women who went to the EEOC commission and show it Hey listen I was more qualified and had more time in the job than this guy had excellent attendance and yet they promoted him over me. Know the women were universally promoted by the courts simply because Walmart was not promoting enough women. Maybe they kept hiring a bunch of low-wage women who really didn't have the particular skill sets required to be in management.

Corporate fear of being sued is a real thing. Corporate diversity programs aimed at specifically hiring, retraining, and promoting women and minorities are a real thing. Pretending those are not a real thing is completely disingenuous of you.

I've been taught that I'm a victim ... really? I've BEEN victim, of sexual violence, of street harrassment, of insidious assumptions about my abilities based on my gender, etc etc. But I was never TAUGHT that I'm a victim at all, and I'd vehemently reject any identification of me as a 'victim' beyond the specific incidents in which I've been victimised.

Again, this is a narrative you've created about me. I have no idea why, but it clearly makes you happy, so go for it. It, again, has no relationship to actual reality.

PS - I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that everything I've achieved has also been based on my own merits. If you want to think it was because of positive discrimination, feel free, but I fought fucking hard to get where I am today. I honestly don't care what you think, but you are so fucking far from the truth here, it's patently ridiculous.

 

[Oblimo]

Their narrative depends on this secret cabal of rotarians giving each other the good old boy hookup and women in the workplace having no idea that they've been passed over for promotion and quietly sitting on their hands and not complaining about it.

Gosh, really? I wonder why?

 

[KimGordon67]

Absolutely not the tunnel vision is yours. You've been taught that you are a victim in a pressed so you think that everything you have in life you fought to achieve over these Herculean obstacles and you feel great about yourself.

I never look at a black guy in the workplace and assume that he was hired only because they needed to fill a diversity slot even though sometimes that's actually true. But you know what's never true?...no one ever hires a white male because they're short on white males. It never happens. Ever.

Nowisthetime is the most virulent racist on this board. She proudly reported walking into a Mexican food restaurant that a bunch of white people are eating at and she assumed because they're white they must be Trump supporters and Trump wants a while so he must hate blaxicans there for these white people hate Mexicans and have no business being in a Mexican food restaurant. She mean-mugged these white people until they looked away from the crazy black click who glared at them for no apparent reason. She actually proudly posted that as if that makes sense. She didn't talk to any of these people she didn't have any idea who these people are or what their belief structure is whether they were strong Hillary Clinton supporters or Trump supporters. She just assumed that white faces means Trump supporters. You can't get any more directly racist than that.

She, like you, has been indoctrinated in the girl power the patriarchy is keeping us down and all of that sort of nonsense but that's not her primary focus her primary phone because is that the white man be keeping her down. Because in the intersectionality of Oppression her Blackness is a bigger source of Pride then her being a woman. She reported that her mother told her that as a black woman she's going to have to work twice as hard for half the credit. You can just imagine how proud she must be that she is not a complete failure in life when she has such an uphill slog. Never mind that she's never had an uphill slog in her life about anything. Ask her ask her that identify specific time when someone held her back her personally didn't know let her get into school didn't give her a job actually grated her differently because she was black or a woman. I'm sure if you asked her she will also tell you that like you believed she was never given the benefit of the doubt because she was a woman. She was never given the benefit of a doubt because she was black. You don't see the Privileges that you are forwarded because you like to think that you got everywhere you got on your merits.

Maybe you did. Maybe she did. I have no idea.

I can guaran-damn-tee you that I've worked for and gotten everything that I've ever been given on my own merits. There are no white guy set aside programs no matter what they told you in your women's studies program. They do not exist. If anyone even thinks that such a thing is happening they get sued and they lose.

Walmart got in big trouble over this because they were not promoting the right number of women. Now you'd have to look at each individual case and say wait a minute this particular woman was definitely qualified and she was held back. That wasn't what they lost on they lost on statistics there weren't any women who went to the EEOC commission and show it Hey listen I was more qualified and had more time in the job than this guy had excellent attendance and yet they promoted him over me. Know the women were universally promoted by the courts simply because Walmart was not promoting enough women. Maybe they kept hiring a bunch of low-wage women who really didn't have the particular skill sets required to be in management.

Corporate fear of being sued is a real thing. Corporate diversity programs aimed at specifically hiring, retraining, and promoting women and minorities are a real thing. Pretending those are not a real thing is completely disingenuous of you.

Also, fuck off.

(I guess it turns out I do care if people think I haven't got where I am based on my own merits.)

 

[CandiCame]

This thread really brings out the stupid and the impotent rage.

They get real pissed off when you won't engage with their dumbassery.

Meanwhile I got the cutest pair of cheetah print pumps today thrift shopping. That's not a joke, I just think it's more worth talking about than grown men throwing hissy fits because the world won't cater to them.

They've got four inch heels and like an inch of platform and I have no clue where I'm going to wear them because I never go anywhere fancy enough anymore.

 

[Que]

Also, fuck off.

(I guess it turns out I do care if people think I haven't got where I am based on my own merits.)

Welcome to my world, sweet cheeks. You know?...where it's assumed that I got to where I am because of white privilege. Don't like that fit on your foot do you?