Is bisexuality real?

[PinkOrchid]

 

[jenlovesamy]

Lest you think I'm dissing the Greeks, they were the ones who invented naked gymnastics performed by buff studs. If only we still had that tradition.....

Ah, the good old days...

 

[homunculus]

Greek older man-boy sexual practice wasn't 'fucking.' It was ritualized and very restricted. Also, it was confined to the aristocracy--a very small percentage of the population. Houses of prostitution, on the other hand, were very common and, among men, accepted. In general, the ancient Greeks were far more open and accepting of sex than we are, but that doesn't mean that Athens was a sexual utopia.

There really isn't any evidence that bisexuality is more prevalent in any society. Lack of bi interest among men, as a general state of affairs, is just too consistent to ignore. That's true even if you know someone or I know someone who is, or seems to be, an exception to the general way things are.

But the individual doesn't need validation from anthropology or classical studies or whatever to explore his or her desires. The great thing is that women, at least here, feel free to say, or write, that watching men enjoy each other is sexy--just as men feel free to acknowledge that watching women enjoying sex with each other is sexy. I think the insistence that men are bi too, or that we are all bi (wh comes from Jungian psych) plays into the 'what is normal' nonsense. If we are all bi, then bi is 'normal,' and therefore ok. No need for that.

 

[apexpark]

i was reading some greek play not too long ago, aristophones (i think thats how you spell it), and it said somewhere that sodomy was punishable by death. was that true in the greek times? or did i misunderstand?

 

[jenlovesamy]

Greek older man-boy sexual practice wasn't 'fucking.' It was ritualized and very restricted. Also, it was confined to the aristocracy--a very small percentage of the population. Houses of prostitution, on the other hand, were very common and, among men, accepted. In general, the ancient Greeks were far more open and accepting of sex than we are, but that doesn't mean that Athens was a sexual utopia.

There really isn't any evidence that bisexuality is more prevalent in any society. Lack of bi interest among men, as a general state of affairs, is just too consistent to ignore. That's true even if you know someone or I know someone who is, or seems to be, an exception to the general way things are.

But the individual doesn't need validation from anthropology or classical studies or whatever to explore his or her desires. The great thing is that women, at least here, feel free to say, or write, that watching men enjoy each other is sexy--just as men feel free to acknowledge that watching women enjoying sex with each other is sexy. I think the insistence that men are bi too, or that we are all bi (wh comes from Jungian psych) plays into the 'what is normal' nonsense. If we are all bi, then bi is 'normal,' and therefore ok. No need for that.

Ok, am I just too tired or do you contradict yourself in your own thread a number of times? You say it's normal but nonsense. What exactly are you trying to say? Clarify your point please.

 

[Ms_Lilith]

i was reading some greek play not too long ago, aristophones (i think thats how you spell it), and it said somewhere that sodomy was punishable by death. was that true in the greek times? or did i misunderstand?

Aristophanes was a comic playwrite. Pretty much nothing that he SAID in his plays was true, but the ideas his plays upheld did have a point. No, sodomy was never punishable by death. Aristophanes believed that it should have been, because he felt that it was not a natural state of affairs, as it had no procreative power, and it left lovemaking between men and women wanting. Aristophanes did not agree that women could not engage in true lovemaking, as was the philosophy at the time, and so he wrote about it in his plays.

 

[homunculus]

'Normal,' as a concept, is a word used by various groups to impose their views of what sex should or shouldn't be. If you look the word up, you'll see that the word comes from physics, geometry and the sciences. But it has come to mean 'right,' or 'natural' or 'what God wants.' In other words, it's a vague word used to control people.

People don't have to play the 'normal' game. People don't have to appeal to some idea of 'everyone is this' so it's ok It's normal, isn't it, for men to mistreat women--in various ways--but is it right or desirable?

So, loving, alluring, exciting, liberating, life enhancing--these are the kinds of angles I like. Tell me that the guys you know who've sucked each other's cocks are sexier, stronger, or cooler than guys who haven't, and I'll start thinking--even if it's not normal!

 

[Ms_Lilith]

the guys I know who have sucked each other's cocks ARE cooler than my straight friends.. but not necessarily because they suck cock.

They're cooler because they understand what it's like to go through that battle within yourself of whether you'll be deemed 'acceptable' by society, and they're cooler because they've had to do a lot of soul-searching to decide whether they will face such a 'stigma'

 

[deliciously_naughty]

I was writing in another thread and thought of something that a friend said that I think makes an interesting topic:

"There's no such thing as bisexuality. You're either gay or straight. It's just that if you get horny enough, you'll try anything."

What do you think?

I think Vix was right when she said it was insulting.

That insinuates that I'm just out for an orgasm and that I don't get anythign different from men and women.

As a bi woman, I can state with certainty that what I get from men and from women are very different things. My attraction to men or women has nothing to do with my level of horniness and everything to do with the individual involved.

 

[jenlovesamy]

the guys I know who have sucked each other's cocks ARE cooler than my straight friends.. but not necessarily because they suck cock.

They're cooler because they understand what it's like to go through that battle within yourself of whether you'll be deemed 'acceptable' by society, and they're cooler because they've had to do a lot of soul-searching to decide whether they will face such a 'stigma'

That is a really decent statement. I like people better that have an open mind. I even like people that are questioning their sexuality, because even they have the ability to be open, you know? Someone who can't admit that they're attracted to the same sex has issues. And bi men are DEFINITELY hot because of course a confident man is a sexy man...

 

[Ms_Lilith]

My prior response was rushed, as I was hurrying to get to a movie on time.

I mean all of those things that I said before, but I think I left it incomplete. Some people truly are straight. They truly are heterosexual. And that is fine with me. I'm dating one. But I believe that, if I date someone, that person has to have an open enough mind to admit that some men or women (whatever their own gender be) are attractive, and I really appreciate someone who has considered homosexuality or bisexuality as an option, and has decided on heterosexuality. I appreciate the thought and the contemplation that has to go into such a decision. Someone who merely accepts that they are straight and never questions it, and will never admit to being attracted to, or appreciating the beauty of a same sex human being, I believe has not fully discovered themselves.

To fully discover yourself, you must examine all options, you must examine all facets. If you do so, and you truly realize that you are heterosexual, or homosexual or bisexual, then I have great respect for you.

This is a journey that, for some, takes a great deal of time and a MASSIVE deal of toil, pain, etc. I have still not come out to my family. I don't know if I can. Some people will wonder about their sexuality for their entire lives, and never make a step to discover it, because of fear, or conditioning, or whatever. It is all in the journey, though. It is all in learning about one's self.



People who are bisexual or homosexual are people who have had to examine the risks and benefits of outing themselves. They are people who may lose family or friends over such an issue. They have evaluated themselves so much so that they know they can no longer hide their true nature, and must live for themselves, in this facet of their lives. Most importantly, however, they are empathetic. They understand what journies, and what struggles other people have, even if those struggles are not sex-related. They understand struggle. Most of my friends are bisexual or bi-curious. I have many gay friends as well. I think I have only 3 truly straight friends. ALL of my friends are open-minded, as it is a pre-requisite to friendship with me, but I find that those who are bi or gay are more so... they understand the need for it.

 

[jenlovesamy]

I've weighed telling my mother that I'm bi and I just can't seem to do it, not because I don't think my mother would understand, I know she would, but because my mother can't keep a secret to save her life, and I wouldn't want anyone else to know. I'm not sure how the rest of my family would handle it and frankly, I don't much like the rest of my family, hehe, so fuck em! I have told a few close friends though and they've all been cool with it. Again, it's who you trust...

 

[homunculus]

Cool, attractive, sexy reply, Vixenshe. I have just one hesitation, though. This remark:

To fully discover yourself, you must examine all options, you must examine all facets. If you do so, and you truly realize that you are heterosexual, or homosexual or bisexual, then I have great respect for you. "

That implies a kind of hierarchy of approval, and a test people have to go through. If a person engages in a sexual practice with joy, pleasure and love, and does so spontaneously, then great! It isn't more valid (to be hetero, for ex.) if he or has considered, say, S&M or fetishes or whatever.

Re cool, also, yes it is great when a person goes through soul searching or whatever. It's also great when he or she just fucking does it. Miles Davis (suffers, is angry, is great) is cool. Michael Jordan is also cool. Freedom is the thing--not indifferent or cold action, certainly, but free. And I think free people will tend to be caring, thoughtful, attentive--and pretty cool.

 

[lovechild27]

Why is it always sex sex sex? Is it that far fetched for some to realize that maybe you can be in love with someone...regardless of their sex?

I attend a religous college...and this seems to be the beliefe among the bible thumpers....people are bi for the sex. That is so incredibly ignorant. There are many bi men....think about the stigma that goes along when a guy is anything but straight...would you want to deal with that sort of crap? It is much more acceptable for a woman to vary in her sexual preference...but not so much for men.

Im not bi and the question insulted me....

 

[kaoskytton]

I've got to mention something that may or may not generate some negative feedback. If I offend anyone, I apologize in advance, but I think it's a valid point when we're looking at how society feels about bisexuality.

To illustrate a possible reason why there may be more outwardly bisexual girls than guys, let's, for a moment, not focus upon the love, the sharing, the late-night soulful talks and the breakfast in the morning. Let's talk (prefix)-sexual, focus on the sex and note how our naughty parts fit together.

Girls are girls. We have innies and unless we're using our arm up to our elbow (and most of us have small hands anyway), there really isn't all that much discomfort going on. Rather, there's a certain dainty prettiness about the whole thing, which is probably why the club I frequent had a "bi-girls dancing contest" as opposed to a "bi-guy," just the other day. Girls are lotus blossoms. Girls lap at each other like so much cream from a dish. Girls are soft and curvy and our endowments are often much more obvious (and spread apart) than a man's, maybe making girls more interesting to watch. We squeeze soft parts and we are curvy and smooth. And yes, of course, we can have hot, wet, screaming girl sex. Of course we can. We can use toys, we can use our bodies, we can also tie each other to crosses and whip each other 'til we lose consciousness. But by and large, there's a whole spacial difference between girl-girl sex and boy-boy sex. Just an opinion, but I think girl-girl sex, while satisfying and quite wonderful, is rather like rainbow sorbet in comparison to the red meat of boy-boy.

Men are stereotyped as strong, powerful creatures. And they're endowed accordingly. They don't come with little french ticklers or cute little soft girl parts. They come with massive, heaving, rock-hard cocks. With these mammoth cocks they thrust into cavities perfectly designed (or not so perfectly designed) to be slightly smaller than they are. Men have more jagged edges, are less soft and supple and more about heat and hardness. While boy-boy sex is certainly sexy, I think society might feel that there's a certain...bestial passion to it, a male expression of power and strength, given the sheer magnitude of exertion and...physical compromise going on.

And I don't mean to say that men are somehow insensitive or that women can't play rough, or, even more, that sex is the basis of bisexuality. I don't mean to say that at all. But as to society's preferences and the "whys" and "hows," I think it's a valid point that they display the fluffy desert, not the raw meat, when you walk into a restaurant...because people like to look at fluffy desserts. And if you're a fluffy desert, it's easier to be seen and accepted on that table.

And whether or not bisexuality is real, certainly so, and its basis is certainly in love. We are creatures who express our affection with all the senses we have. We hug and hold the people we love, and although it is not "sexual" in nature, truly, it is very similar. It's sensual, it's comforting, and it brings us peace. Bisexuality is that, to the nth power. Bisexuality is loving whom you love, wanting to show them love, wanting to share love with them. At least, that's what it means, to me. But what do I know? I'm just one voice in thousands of bisexual people...and while Santa's not real, the Easter bunny's not real, and we can wonder about God, you can reach out and touch me. And I say we are.

 

[lovechild27]

Umm...Kaoskytton...I think by saying girls are pretty and thats why they are open with it is along the almost insulting line...to say women are open with it because it is pretty? Have you ever met a butch lesbian? NOT what most would consider sexy....


Im not bi....just doesnt make sense to me....

 

[pawonderer]

I guess this is just jumping in front of the bus for me but here goes...
For starters, I agree that bisexuality is real. Which has become problematic for me because it turns out that I am. I ended up getting married and havent acted on it in years but I can't deny it to myself anymore. I tried to play it off as just experimenting before but I dont think thats is it. It does seem to be a little easier for women to express that they are though because not as many people come down hard on them(in my opinion anyway).

But also a better question for me would be not whether being bi is real but whether I am a coward for not just telling my wife and friends. I just feel like i would lose too many people over it if i did.
Any advice or kind words greatly appreciated

 

[pawonderer]

Oh yeah and sorry if i sound like a huge nerd

 

[Ms_Lilith]

Cool, attractive, sexy reply, Vixenshe. I have just one hesitation, though. This remark:

To fully discover yourself, you must examine all options, you must examine all facets. If you do so, and you truly realize that you are heterosexual, or homosexual or bisexual, then I have great respect for you. "

That implies a kind of hierarchy of approval, and a test people have to go through. If a person engages in a sexual practice with joy, pleasure and love, and does so spontaneously, then great! It isn't more valid (to be hetero, for ex.) if he or has considered, say, S&M or fetishes or whatever.

Re cool, also, yes it is great when a person goes through soul searching or whatever. It's also great when he or she just fucking does it. Miles Davis (suffers, is angry, is great) is cool. Michael Jordan is also cool. Freedom is the thing--not indifferent or cold action, certainly, but free. And I think free people will tend to be caring, thoughtful, attentive--and pretty cool.

*grin* I knew that I would hear something about that. I didn't quite know how to word it when I wrote it. I understand and appreciate people who jump into situations, and just live the way they do because it feels right (I am only at the moment referring to this sexual topic, not dangerous behaviours and such).

I suppose I should have said that I have more of an AFFINITY with people who have struggled and who have truly examined themselves, because that's what I've done. Maybe that makes more sense.

Like I mentioned before, most of my friends are somehow queer, and I just seem to be attracted to and understand better those people who can also understand me. I don't judge people if they're gay, straight, bi, whatever. I meet a lot of straight people who are just straight and that's it. They've never considered the option of being anything else, and that is what makes them comfortable. And that is fine. I have no place to judge, and I have no reason to not like someone based solely on that. I can be friends with those people, and some are very good friends of mine.

I guess ... it's refreshing... to know people who have had to consider the same things as I have.... birds of a feather, etc.


PS- I am truly sorry if I offended anyone with my postings here.

 

[kaoskytton]

LoveChild, didn't mean to say that all women are cute and that it's somehow related to being open.

What I was trying to say was that I think society's general stereotype for women (particularly those who would be marketed in a sexual situation and thus presented to the public in a much more "in-your-face" way than those behind closed doors) is that women are, usually (unless termed "freaky"), smaller, curvier, prettier, and softer than men. Butches of course do not fit into this category. Neither do (and I'm gonna duck rocks after this), most fat people, lots of ugly people, people from certain cultural backgrounds, etc. I'm not saying they're not wonderful or beautiful but for some reason they're just not selling on the magazine racks and in that little room in the back of the video store.

It's terrible but seriously, you don't see a lot of women in media in sexual situations (like porn stars, nude models, etc.), who aren't disgustingly clipped, manicured, and padded to a certain ideal.

And in those ideals, women are cute and fuzzy and men are big hunks of man-meat. I'm not agreeing with the standard, but I think the media's big aggressive cock image really chokes the throat of the bisexual male media market, which keeps it behind closed doors.

I mean, seriously, if people (like Linda Lovelace) started fucking German Shepards in the street, there might be a lot more magazines about it. You might see more women in dog suits (in addition to the bunny suits). But they're aren't, and it's over-the-line kink for most people. I think a lot of it is media controlled.

That's my point. I don't think it has anything to do with there being fewer bisexual men than women. I just think "bi-girls" have been designated as a "cute" thing in the media and that makes it marketable, sellable, and safe to have in your home and on your eyes.

I personally disagree and love nothing more than watching the boys, but hey...

 

[Etoile]

Great discussion so far. My opinion is that everyone has the potential to be bisexual. I prefer women, but that doesn't mean I couldn't have a relationship with a man if I found the right guy. This doesn't make me bisexual - or does it? I choose to label myself a dyke, but society would probably think I'm bisexual. Whose label matters? I'd say my own. (See the link in my sig for more of my thoughts on this.)

 

[Ms_Lilith]

In a way, I do have to agree with kaoskytten. Why? Well, I am an artist. I have always preferred drawing women to drawing men, because women have more curves, they have more... rounded body parts. Men are lumpy. Femininity truly does lend itself to art, (at least, to me) more than masculinity does (to me). And I have always thought it more beautiful to see two women locked in each other's embrace then two men. But that is my PERSONAL preference. I think women together are beautiful, and men together are passionate and carnal. But again, that is MY preference.

I can understand that society can see two women together far more easily than two men, not only because of the beauty of the image, but because of the 'natures' of both types of creature.

The 'nature' of women, as far as society goes, is that women are nurturers, and are capable of nurturing despite the gender they are nurturing. Women are people who go out of their way to serve and please (this is archaic thinking, but it's still very much present today). Women are creatures of love. Women are sensual creatures, women are gentle and soft. (this is just my theory of how society views women)

Men, on the other hand, are strong. They are providers, they work, they eat red meat, they are gruff, and are trained to be manly and hide emotions. (again, archaic thinking, which I'll back up in a minute). When a society that has trained men to be strong and manly and to fuck as many women as possible in order to prove their manliness (I mean, think about all the testosterone-ridden sports and commercials out there) sees two men together, it kind of sends that society reeling. Their training has failed. (I say this partially tongue-in-cheek, because I think a mentality like this is ridiculous).

In ancient times, (Greece, I refer to here), it was expected of the 'better' men in society that they take on a young male lover... and they would not only make love with this lover, but they would help oversee the education of that lover, they would sponsor him for the army and other such programs, etc. It was considered only possible to make love with another man, because women did not have the minds, nor the heart for lovemaking. Women were property, owned, for the sake of procreation. Men in those times also considered it okay to FUCK women, but it was not true lovemaking, in the eyes of the philosophers and theorists.

In those times, a man could be married, and he could also have as many male and female lovers as he wanted, without any repercussions. The wife had to sit there and take it. How would you feel? And so tribadism became very prevalent among the women in Greece. Tribadism is the proper term for female-female loving. Anyhow, these women made love with each other, because they could. If a woman was caught making love with another man, she, and any children produced by such a union, were forsaken by the husband, because those children might not have been his stock, they might not be purely greek. (oy!)

The men who knew about tribadism in ancient times didn't much like it, but they made concessions for it, as women were weak.. they sought out other weak persons to share their loneliness with, and it was a harmless union. It became acceptable, though maybe not LIKED, that women were together... and then philosophers (especially those from Sparta) began to speak about the wrongs of sodomy.. that sex should be with your wedded partner, and that it should be for procreation... that even though men couldn't help themselves from sleeping with many women (they were ALLOWED to cheat on their wives, even in the eyes of Aristotle and Plato), that they should refrain from sex with boys, because such a union had become obselete. They had grown beyond the point of mentoring and of being lovers with other men.

And so they put boys in the army, and taught them to visit brothels to get their rocks off, and to seek out wives, but to avoid sleeping with men, because they would be labeled feminine... and to be labeled feminine after a certain point in ancient history, was a bad bad thing. It meant you got passed up for army promotions, and you didnt get to participate as actively in government, etc.

And that conditioning.. that women are weaker, and that it is acceptable for the weak to seek out the weak and share themselves with each other, and that it is harmless for women to be together, has been propogated over many centuries. Religious movements have sought to crush such a theory, but society itself has accepted it, even if subconsciously. The theory that men are to be strong, and that showing a sign of weakness, of femininity, causes them to lose ground, to lose credit, has also been propogated. And so society packs men full of testosterone-ideas, and it makes men afraid to show their 'weakness', their attraction to other men.

(I study this kind of thing, so if you like I could back up all I just said with sources, I'd just have to look for a paper I wrote last year on ancient sexual practices).

Anyway, my point is that it is more okay for women to be together than men, and that part of it (from the first part of my answer) is that two women together are more beautiful, while men together seem more carnal. Two 'submissive' forces together seems more beautiful than two 'dominant' forces, the weak is more beautiful with the weak, than the srong with the strong. It is the result of conditioning. It is the result of thousands of years of conditioning. It is not new.

 

[homunculus]

I'm grateful for the care and tact with which Vixenshe and Kaoskitton frame their replies. I have to admit that I like the fantasy of attractive men or women at play, and I can imagine the excitement and romance of other than magazine model people getting together...As for the idea re cultural conditioning, it only goes so far. Each of us is born into this life, not the life of a Greek aristocrat or slave, etc. In other words, notions of cultural conditioning, wh are always based on incomplete information, starts to sound like esentialist ideas.
A couple of idea/qustns
How many men can imagine kissing another man, as opposed to playing with his cock or other kind of sexual contact?
Do male bi fantasies involve intimacy of other sorts, or sexual adventure?

 

[phillybiguy4u]

I think that i saw some one say that being bi is about being able to accept the side of you that is that of the other sex. I am a married bi man i was not always able to accept it but my wife who is also bi has been able to get me to accpet it & embrace it. I love being with either men or women that does not make me gay. I love to see other people happy & i love to make myself happy along with seeing the look on my wifes face when i am with another man. She also loves to see the look i have when she is with another woman.Being bi is all about love not just sex. I love my wife with all my heart & i know she loves me with all of her heart, That is why we do what ever we can to make the other as happy as possible. Plus it all feels sooooo good too. LOL

 

[throbbing4u]

I agree with phillybiguy4u. After years of discussing and fantisizing my wife and i tried swinging and it opened up a whole new world for us.
after swinging for awhile my wife opened up too me and admitted what i had expected for sometime. That is that she was also attracted too woman, and would like to experment with one.
I was pleasantly shocked, so shocked that i admitted to her that before we were married i had an encounter with a friend of mine and enjoyed it very much and would like too have sex with another man.
The first time that i got a chance my wife was in the same room with me and another guy it was so Hot for all three of us. I was giving the other guy a blowjoband we were both really into it when i looked over at my wife she had the most lustfilled look on her face that i had ever seen.
I couldnt believe it, she was very openly masterbating. Something that she never did before, of course us guys made sure she was well taken care of too.
Dick will never replace pussy for me, but with the right guy i sure enjoy it.and i dont have to sneak around on my wife to get it either. I would never come out and tell my family though ther is no reason too. I know what turns me on and so doe's my loving very understanding wife and that is all that counts.