Indecisive Subs

[Kumani]

Hi to everyone:

I just wanted to get some feedback and possibly some opinions from Doms/Dommes about indecisive slaves/subs etc.
Reason being I find that as a Domme it is so difficult to find a true slave/sub. A person who truly is a sub. I do not mean in the sense of a play acting and so forth (because I do take the D/s lifestyle very seriously) but sometime who is willing to put in the effort in completing steps and so on towards the path of relinquishing control.
I just had to put this out there because I am sure that I am not the only Domme that has experienced this.

Feel free to contribute your two cents..

 

[chris9]

Hi to everyone:

I just wanted to get some feedback and possibly some opinions from Doms/Dommes about indecisive slaves/subs etc.
Reason being I find that as a Domme it is so difficult to find a true slave/sub. A person who truly is a sub. I do not mean in the sense of a play acting and so forth (because I do take the D/s lifestyle very seriously) but sometime who is willing to put in the effort in completing steps and so on towards the path of relinquishing control.
I just had to put this out there because I am sure that I am not the only Domme that has experienced this.

Feel free to contribute your two cents..

My two cents, even though I'm a pyl* and this thread is not really aimed at me: If you say not many subs are 'true' subs, you imply that most are false. Which I have to say offends me. I understand very well how anyone searching can get annoyed, PYLs by pyls who don't submit, who take it as a game, a fun and sexy way to pass a few hours, pyls by PYLs who don't have the self-control to control another human, who don't take responsibility, who see it as a game, a fun and sexy way to pass a few hours, to get laid. None of those are 'false' PYLs/pyls. They are just not meant to be together.

The reason is that D/s in general falls under the category of BDSM (it's discussed on the BDSM forum, ads are placed under that title). And BDSM is not the same as D/s. One might be searching for this mainly for the SM part, and then play-acting works just fine for them. One might like it to spice up the sex life by ordering each other around. Another might want to give up/take over control in some specific areas, but not in others. The next might be looking for a 24/7 slavery-like relationship. And they all fall under BDSM.
Yes, it's annoying to not find the one partner one is looking for. But IMO if whoever one is talking to doesn't seem to be and doesn't do what one expects and wants, this is not the right one yet. Not 'true' or 'false', just not a match.


*PYL=Dominant/Top/whatever you call it
pyl=submissive/bottom/whatever you call it

 

[CutieMouse]

Chris covered the whole "true" thing, so I'll skip that issue... (the crowds sigh with relief )

My thoughts upon reading the original post were these:

One must always factor in the realities of Life when assigning tasks, or establishing expectations. Any one of a number of things can get in the way of delaying or completing an act of submission- on either party's part. (work, illness, family, errands, bills, stress, travel, etc) Should one hide behind the twists and turns of Life to avoid submitting (or dominating), if that is one's desire? Of course not. However, the reality is, that BDSM relationships do not exsist within a bubble of kink- the Universe has an unfortunate way of intruding, at the most inopportune moments.

One must also consider the timeline involved, in expecting the deepest degree of submission. There is one person on this planet, to whom I would never entertain the idea of refusing. One reason I am capable of such devotion, is that we have known each other for almost two years. Two years of daily investment in a Friendship, above and beyond anything related to kink. I woudl follow him to the ends of the earth, and back again- but it has taken walking down a long, patient, difficult, intense path, to reach this point... and I still screwed things up enough, that we are now no more than Friends. (He has no doubts of my submissiveness, BTW- we reached the conclusion that we were otherwise romantically uncompatable.)

Giving yourself up to another, is almost as difficut as being in charge of someone else. It isn't an easy thing, and submissive people come with the same sort of trust/reationship/childhood baggage everyone else has, which can make things kinda interesting (in the less than fun way) when searching for a partner.

Good luck finding someone who is a good "fit" for you.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Hi to everyone:

I just wanted to get some feedback and possibly some opinions from Doms/Dommes about indecisive slaves/subs etc.
Reason being I find that as a Domme it is so difficult to find a true slave/sub. A person who truly is a sub. I do not mean in the sense of a play acting and so forth (because I do take the D/s lifestyle very seriously) but sometime who is willing to put in the effort in completing steps and so on towards the path of relinquishing control.
I just had to put this out there because I am sure that I am not the only Domme that has experienced this.

Feel free to contribute your two cents..

I was going to reply to this post though now I feel like coffee instead.......shrugs

 

[catalina_francisco]

Perhaps it is simply you are not the right person for the ones you have talked with so far...no-one is liked by or suited to everyone, nor does one size fit all...finding the right mix, communicating, and working together to achieve the final goal usually works wonders. My thoughts on finding the right sub/slave or Dom/me is that it is never easy if it is worth valuing, so being clear about what you want and need and employing a lot of patience in relation to how long it takes to find that one person is a necessity.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

Personally I find a little conflict and indecisiveness when I'm asking for unconditional surrender to be a *good* and a *healthy* sign. If it's too easy and too natural for someone to just do what I tell them to with never a misgiving, never a misunderstanding and never a hitch, I think I'd be a little scared.

It's not that I like the "challenge" gameplaying that a lot of people do, but I know that submission isn't exactly an easy thing, nor shoud it be.

I'm also drifting away from definitions more and more. I'm finding myself more a "has tried lots of stuff person and finds herself controlling the direction of romantic relationships and likes that" person rather than "a Domme" if that makes sense.

 

[JMohegan]

You want someone "who is willing to put in the effort in completing steps and so on towards the path of relinquishing control" ?

Okay. Ask yourself this question.

Why should they? Not just why should they relinquish control in general, but why should they relinquish control to you?

Think of your relationship as a trade, a swap, a deal. You want something from him/her, and he/she wants something from you.

Ask questions. Listen carefully. Pay attention. Check for consistency and frequency in responses.

What motivates, attracts, repels your partner? What does he/she really desire and need? Figure this out, and then focus on the most efficient way to feed these desires and needs in order to get what you want.

I agree with what Netzach just wrote about "a little conflict and indecisiveness" on the path to surrender being healthy.

But if you're repeatedly experiencing situations in which the process is totally derailed, I think it's worth asking yourself whether or not the one who is failing to put forth enough effort is you.

Not a slam, just a thought.

 

[shy slave]

Personally I find a little conflict and indecisiveness when I'm asking for unconditional surrender to be a *good* and a *healthy* sign. If it's too easy and too natural for someone to just do what I tell them to with never a misgiving, never a misunderstanding and never a hitch, I think I'd be a little scared.

It's not that I like the "challenge" gameplaying that a lot of people do, but I know that submission isn't exactly an easy thing, nor should it be.

I'm also drifting away from definitions more and more. I'm finding myself more a "has tried lots of stuff person and finds herself controlling the direction of romantic relationships and likes that" person rather than "a Domme" if that makes sense.

The line in bold and above is a thing PYL's sometimes forget.

Many pyl's are forthright individuals who have opinions, views and who share those thoughts with others including PYL's.
pyl's are not hatched from a dungeon complete with the words 'Yes Ma'am' tattooed on their heads.

Kumani, I should say that I am not suggesting that you think that and my knowledge of Dommes is very limited, but I have met and talked to a number of Doms who have said similar to your post and further into a conversation with them there are elements of views that reflect the above.

Perhaps Chris is right in looking at the distinction between BDSM and D/s they do seem to be different dynamics.

Adding a little fuel to the fire I have met male pyl's who drive me crazy with their whining about wanting this or that, yet when they met a Domme it is never 'right' and they revert to whining. If I dare say that it is not what they want, but what the Domme wants I am frozen out of their circle.

It is not easy to find the right person, but Lit is a good place to rant about it.

 

[Kumani]

To the comment made by JMohegan:

We all have our definiton of what a true D/s relationship entails. I am not going to go into details and spell out exactly what my ideal is as it is my business and my future subs.
But for me a D/s relationship is always reciprocal. it is give and take. There is no other wya. So for you to infer that the problem resides on my part is quite pathethc as you do not even know the full details of the situation. Which I choose not to reveal.

Furthermore my main contention is not with people who play actors or subs who like to cyber and not enter the real world. It is with subs who wholeheartedly undertake a process willingly and they ask to go forward to step 2, step 3 etc.Then all of a sudden they decide that this is where they check out. To me this is fine as I do not push anyone into anythign they do not wish to do. However the thought, the emotional involvement, the actual conception of a tasks and tests in order to see if this person is worthy and if i and them are a perfect fit is quite tasking.(on the Doms part) after all it is up to the Dom to create the scene to analyze the individual to see if this person is worth the effort.

This is my contention...

Again my two cents.

I love subs. I have met quite a few intriguing ones however I wonder if they truly appreciate the effort that Doms go through to keep them happy. Just a thought

 

[IsabellaSnow]

I agree with what Netzach just wrote about "a little conflict and indecisiveness" on the path to surrender being healthy.

I agree with this.

But it's worth mentioning that while some people naturally present a little conflict and indecisiveness, the more it escalates could simply be a sign that of their subconscious not feeling compatible with the D on some level.

If I use myself for an example - I'm not submissive by any stretch of the imagination in my daily life. Quite the opposite, in fact. But I do take the submissive roll (and obviously there are varying degrees and what I find submissive, others might show me the door for) in a relationship.

And while I get off on resistance play - and yes, that makes me brattish - I dont protest too much. Unless I know deep down inside (and not on the surface yet) that Im not compatible with this man. I which case, I protest way too much, lol.

Im a firm believer in the "sometimes you just know" philosophy.

And while I love someone tossing me over his shoulder and carrying me into the bedroom to have his wicked way with me - I also know that the FEW times Ive been in the presence of a man whom I felt was truly more in charge than myself just because that was his nature - I dont think I argued or put up much of a fight at all.

It just felt natural to do whatever the hell they told me to do.

Sorry, I seem to have gone off topic here. I guess my point is that sometimes we just arent compatible, no matter how hard we try, and too much resistance is often a sign of that.

IME, at least.

 

[JMohegan]

To the comment made by JMohegan:

We all have our definiton of what a true D/s relationship entails. I am not going to go into details and spell out exactly what my ideal is as it is my business and my future subs.
But for me a D/s relationship is always reciprocal. it is give and take. There is no other wya. So for you to infer that the problem resides on my part is quite pathethc as you do not even know the full details of the situation. Which I choose not to reveal.

When I wrote, "Not a slam, just a thought", my intent was to say that I was not writing a personal attack but rather just throwing out a possibility for you to contemplate.

If what I wrote does not apply to you, no problem. Disregard it and move on.

You asked for advice, and I gave an honest response. I'm gonna do it again right now, so you should probably stop reading if you are only interested in responses that mirror your own view of the Dom/sub world.

Furthermore my main contention is not with people who play actors or subs who like to cyber and not enter the real world. It is with subs who wholeheartedly undertake a process willingly and they ask to go forward to step 2, step 3 etc.Then all of a sudden they decide that this is where they check out. To me this is fine as I do not push anyone into anythign they do not wish to do. However the thought, the emotional involvement, the actual conception of a tasks and tests in order to see if this person is worthy and if i and them are a perfect fit is quite tasking.(on the Doms part) after all it is up to the Dom to create the scene to analyze the individual to see if this person is worth the effort.

Yes, the investment in time and energy on the part of the Dom is extraordinary.

The same could be said on the other side of the coin.

The process of finding the right person can be frustrating, irritating, and even infuriating.

But again, I say: Ask yourself what you may or may not be doing that is causing or contributing to these derailments.

As a general rule, I have found it far more helpful to focus on improvements in my own behavior, rather than complaining about the shortcomings of others. That is the only way I have ever been able to achieve my own goals. Your methods may vary.

I love subs. I have met quite a few intriguing ones however I wonder if they truly appreciate the effort that Doms go through to keep them happy. Just a thought.

I have loved individuals, and yes - they have been appreciative of my efforts. As I have been of theirs.

 

[CutieMouse]

Furthermore my main contention is not with people who play actors or subs who like to cyber and not enter the real world. It is with subs who wholeheartedly undertake a process willingly and they ask to go forward to step 2, step 3 etc.Then all of a sudden they decide that this is where they check out. To me this is fine as I do not push anyone into anythign they do not wish to do. However the thought, the emotional involvement, the actual conception of a tasks and tests in order to see if this person is worthy and if i and them are a perfect fit is quite tasking.(on the Doms part) after all it is up to the Dom to create the scene to analyze the individual to see if this person is worth the effort.

This is my contention...

Again my two cents.

I love subs. I have met quite a few intriguing ones however I wonder if they truly appreciate the effort that Doms go through to keep them happy. Just a thought

The investment in energy, time, attention, planning, soul searching, study, etc by both parties can be a rather enormous task. Both parties accept the risks of investing in the other, to see if they are a good fit.

Personally, I am of the opinion that being the dominant party is damned hard work- in some ways far more difficult and taxing, than being the submissive party. However, this does not mean submissives get off easy and get to be warm squishy puddles of goo, without a care in the world, because their partner is in charge.

The getting to step 3 and deciding things aren't working thing, isn't something exclusive of submissives... the person mentioned in my first post, made the decision that we were not as compatable as he needed, after an eighteen month investment by both of us, and I decided he was right (for different reasons).

Relationships are difficult. I'm sorry you're finding things to be such a challenge; hopefully you will find someone with whom you are fully compatable, and the issue will become moot.

 

[BiBunny]

Kumani, please don't think I'm accusing you of doing this because I don't know your situation, but I know in my experience, when subs get cold feet and back out, it tends to be because the Dom/me in question is pushing too hard. I've met a number of Doms (don't really have much experience with Dommes) who insist on more, more, more when the submissive is giving all he or she feels able to give at that point. I know of one guy in particular who pushes and pushes and pushes and pushes to the point that anyone with half a brain would finally give in and say, "Hell no."

Like I said, I'm not suggesting that you're doing this, but maybe you should talk to those subs who seem to just "give up." If they're having trust issues, maybe a talk and some reassurances that you don't expect Rome to be built in a day would get things back on track. Submission, for me, is a very big deal, and it took Master a long time to get it from me. For awhile, I was just a kinky painslut bottom to him. He proved to me that he cared about me as a person and that he wouldn't push me further than I was able to go. He did this consistently, and when the time came, I was able to accept my collar with little problem (although pushing the word "Master" from my lips for the first time took a little bit of persuasion!). Good luck.

 

[the captians wench]

forgive me Kumani but to sujest that the PYL's role in the matter is more taxing than the pyl's, and that the problem could not possibly in anyway be atributed to you seems just a tad arogant to me. It takes a lot for some one to put so much trust in some one that they hand their life over to that person. Perhaps you just have not found some one capable of giving that much trust, or they just did not click with you on that level, or perhaps bibunny hit it with you may be pushing too hard too soon. In any regaurd the only way to know for sure what is going on with these subs is to talk to them. I would also be so bold as to sujest that you step back for just a moment and think of things from their prospective. Would you be willing to do for them the things you ask your sub to do for you? That question answers a lot I think. I'm not saying you should do it for them, but rather would you trust them enough, love them enough to do for them what you ask them to do for you. And if you do not have that trust, that faith, that love, how could you really ask it of them?

of course this is just my personal thoughts and you may take them or leave them as you will.


and please do forgive my spelling. I know it's horrid, but I'm too lazy at the moment to care to do the whole copy paste thing and spell check

 

[neonflux]

Yes, the investment in time and energy on the part of the Dom is extraordinary.

The same could be said on the other side of the coin.

The process of finding the right person can be frustrating, irritating, and even infuriating.

But again, I say: Ask yourself what you may or may not be doing that is causing or contributing to these derailments.

As a general rule, I have found it far more helpful to focus on improvements in my own behavior, rather than complaining about the shortcomings of others. That is the only way I have ever been able to achieve my own goals. Your methods may vary.

Thank you for this post. As always, I find a great deal of wisdom in it. Having never been in a 24/7 D/s arrangement, I can only speak from what I have observed in friends, so am assuming that anyone reading my post will take it with a grain of salt.

I also believe that all relationships are difficult, sometimes frustrating and infuriating. They also involve investment on the part of both partners. I suspect that the conscious investment can be much greater in a formal D/s relationship than a "vanilla" one, and it must be doubly frustrating and heart breaking when such a relationship ends.

As you and others have said, any relationship takes two people. Over the last 30+ years of loving and being loved, I have come to understand that I was/am as responsible as my partner for the path that every one of my romantic/sexual relationships have taken. While ultimately I cannot control what the other party does, what decisions they make, how deeply they want to proceed, I can control my own actions and expectations. This includes the extent to which I closely listen to and thereby understand my partner's desires, behavior, etc.

The more I have been willing to examine myself and my actions, the more satisfying and mutual my relationships have become, regarless of what their eventual outcome is...

Kumani, I hope that you'll take my post as a thoughtful offering rather than a judgment. Certainly I mean none. As JMohegan said, take what makes sense and discard the rest.

Neon

 

[Kumani]

Thanks to all for the comments. Great discussion everyone.

 

[Auraka6669]

Just wanting to throw this out there.

JMohegan is my hero. There is a lot to learn and explore, the main thing in these threads (and which is why I don't post often) is that perception is reality. And each person perceives things differently. Just read, take what you need and leave. Understanding is all that people really ask, so take it for what it's worth an opinion. If that doesn't fit with you? Than fine.

PS. BDSM can be looked at many ways, but I like to look at it in 3. B/D, D/s, S/m so it's all inclusive and quite broad a term... just pointing out it's all in there. (But only if you want it to be. )

 

[pipesoflirael]

I have to agree with some others in that BDSM is definetly a journey and not something you enter with complete knowledge of what you want. You may begin the lifestyle terrified of a good number of things then, six months later, drop the inhibitions and ask for more. Perhaps it's the same with subs. If you're just starting to enter the lifestyle, the concept of surrendering yourself to another person is difficult to understand. As with the journey, a sub could start off in said arena and then become a switch, even realize they're a Dom. My point is that ideas change. If you haven't found anyone you find to be a true submissive, you may just be looking in more inexperianced locations

Disclaimer: i'm not saying inexperiance is a bad thing so no hate letters!!

 

[osa23]

too much like toilet paper -

the doms and the subs i have often met seem too addicted to the useless drama of 'the life' -

this reminds me often of the whole problem with the hip-hop nation: too caught up in the appearance of being 'hard' and 'real' but lacking the necessary foresight and long-term vision to meet the innate challenges that arises when momentum and movement conspire to create unique dynamics that offers infinite gems and treasures of wisdom and knowledge...

my interpetation of 'the life' would be the agreement between two individuals to engage in a relationship that honours the components and aspects of knowledge and personal transformation.

that at some point - the 'dom' and the 'sub' no longer are addicts addicted to the petty dramas invoked and culled from a type of glossy ignorance crouched inside the cliches of 'proper terms of respect' and 'whip, chains, and things that excite..'

as a martial artist - i view true discipline as a means towards rising above the usual smut of obsolete distractions that do not engender and create personal self-reliance and self-awareness but create a perpetual need to remain attached to victimhood -

a true master becomes a true student and teacher, while the true student yearns to become a true student and teacher who has received the absolute honour of passing on this knowledge onto the next individual who desires to become the true student and teacher ----

and not honour this cliche of apathetic addictions that leads to a breakdown and faltering of a system that seems, at least to me, to be innate and a natural birthright of all:

that natural birthright to expand beyond the limits and perceived boundaries to embrace the true potentials of mind, spirit, psyche, and flesh.

 

[Netzach]

the doms and the subs i have often met seem too addicted to the useless drama of 'the life' -

this reminds me often of the whole problem with the hip-hop nation: too caught up in the appearance of being 'hard' and 'real' but lacking the necessary foresight and long-term vision to meet the innate challenges that arises when momentum and movement conspire to create unique dynamics that offers infinite gems and treasures of wisdom and knowledge...

my interpetation of 'the life' would be the agreement between two individuals to engage in a relationship that honours the components and aspects of knowledge and personal transformation.

that at some point - the 'dom' and the 'sub' no longer are addicts addicted to the petty dramas invoked and culled from a type of glossy ignorance crouched inside the cliches of 'proper terms of respect' and 'whip, chains, and things that excite..'

as a martial artist - i view true discipline as a means towards rising above the usual smut of obsolete distractions that do not engender and create personal self-reliance and self-awareness but create a perpetual need to remain attached to victimhood -

a true master becomes a true student and teacher, while the true student yearns to become a true student and teacher who has received the absolute honour of passing on this knowledge onto the next individual who desires to become the true student and teacher ----

and not honour this cliche of apathetic addictions that leads to a breakdown and faltering of a system that seems, at least to me, to be innate and a natural birthright of all:

that natural birthright to expand beyond the limits and perceived boundaries to embrace the true potentials of mind, spirit, psyche, and flesh.

I dig. But when you say this:


"that at some point - the 'dom' and the 'sub' no longer are addicts addicted to the petty dramas invoked and culled from a type of glossy ignorance crouched inside the cliches of 'proper terms of respect' and 'whip, chains, and things that excite..'"

I have to disagree somewhat. I think those dramas are not too petty, they are a pretty important part of developing and understanding oneself, if you aren't bound too much to cliche, or if you understand the ritual within the cliche and what it can fulfill.

I also don't think that eliminating the objects of paraphilia is necessarily more "enlightened." I've fought hard and come full circle for my paraphilias, I have no need to apologize for them or be considered a second class denizen of the sexual underworld because I haven't progressed "beyond" physical SM.

 

[Marquis]

I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread, but I've often been in this position, on both sides of the whip.

The truth is, as much as we want other people to exist for ourselves, they exist for themselves, just as we do. In any healthy relationship, there will be times when one partner isn't able to be what the other partner wants at that moment. That doesn't make them dishonest or indecisive, it makes them a human and an individual.

I've often been frustrated when it seems that a woman is begging for my love, my attention and the proverbial hand of dominance. They will beg to have me take control over more and more aspects of their life. Then just a short time later, they will show little interest in submitting to my control. This can be a frustrating experience, and it's easy to chalk this up to them being fake, indecisive or just not serious.

But I have no doubts that it is just as frustrating and confusing for them when they desire my mastery and all I really want is a girlfriend, or maybe just a friend. This sort of back and forth is natural and desirable. To judge if the relationship is worth maintaining, ask yourself if you're making progress over the longterm, not necessarily in the moment. Are you taking two steps forward and one step back, or one step forward and two steps back?

The funny thing is, the less you stress yourself out about these things, the greater your chances of success. Stress only adds a burden to the relationship, when truthfully, it'll end up where it's meant to end up if you just chill out and let it happen. I used to be a fan of dramatic love-at-first-sight partnerships and theatrical break-ups, but as seductive as indulging in powerful emotions can be, it's rarely practical.

In my opinion it's better to let a relationship slowly grow from a conversation to a friendship to a romance to a partnership, or the reverse, as the case may be.

If I find myself overly focused on one area of my life, such as love, I try to balance it out by giving some more (and probably much needed) attention to other important aspects of my life. You have to be willing to devote energy into love to get something out of it, but the law of diminishing returns still applies.

 

[chris9]

Great post, Marquis

 

[FurryFury]

Great post, Marquis

I agree, excellent post M.

Fury

 

[Musing]

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if this isn't quite what you mean.

I think that indecisiveness and inconsistency can be attributed to the wrong reasons. I used to get quite upset over being able to handle a task or level of play and then the next time it was introduced, to fail and need to negotiate or use a safeword. It took time for me to realise that my tolerance to anything depends on a number of factors: -

- my mood
- Sir's mood
- tiredness or hunger/thirst
- my cycle
- whether an activity was intended as play or punishment
- how strong our relationship (and therefore my trust in Sir) is at the time
- bruising/ soreness from a previous scene

Any number of things can affect my ability to relinquish a certain level of control and play at a certain level. I have a duty to communicate these things to my Sir but in return he has a duty to accept me as an individual with all my frailties. If Sir wouldn't accept that I was doing my best to serve him in any situation I'm sure I would become quickly discouraged.

Also with pushing boundaries, the first time I cross into a new activity that challenges me I'm not always sure afterward how much I enjoyed it or whether I am happy to do it again. I will sometimes ask not to try a new activity a second time until I've had a while to think about it and reflect on it. I don't see that as inconsistent either.

I'm happy to be pushed and challenged, I want to be. For that I need to trust my Sir completely and be able to speak freely with him about new things. If everything is discussed and negotiated with respect then inconsistency can be kept to a minimum.

I would suggest that if the subs who play with you consistently act uncertain and reluctant to cede control it must be a trust issue and it must be on your part. It's easy to chastise or even cast aside a sub because they haven't met your expectations. Far more complicated is the task of reassuring a sub and building trust until they are willing to go wherever you take them, knowing that you understand and respect them as individuals with personal limitations and needs.

 

[neonflux]

my interpetation of 'the life' would be the agreement between two individuals to engage in a relationship that honours the components and aspects of knowledge and personal transformation...

a true master becomes a true student and teacher, while the true student yearns to become a true student and teacher who has received the absolute honour of passing on this knowledge onto the next individual who desires to become the true student and teacher ----

I would have to agree with a great deal of this. It is one reason that I have never completely understood this idea that a Domme must be the all-knowing teacher while it is the sub that "grows" in a relationship. It seems to me that any relationship that is at its best involves a mutuality of learning, of growth, of personal discovery.

and not honour this cliche of apathetic addictions that leads to a breakdown and faltering of a system that seems, at least to me, to be innate and a natural birthright of all:

that natural birthright to expand beyond the limits and perceived boundaries to embrace the true potentials of mind, spirit, psyche, and flesh.

I have to agree with Netzach here and respectfully disagree with you. While I also believe that it is our birthright to embrace our true potential, I don't see the paraphenalia and respect for form/tradition as either an addition or a breakdown of what you term "the system."For me, BDSM with all of its "paraphenalia" is actually serving to deepen my spiritual path in some very significant ways. This hasn't been suprising to me - almost all religious traditions include mystic paths by which some form of sexual experience can lead to spiritual growth (even in Christianity we have St. Theresa). Likewise, almost all have some tradition through which spiritual ecstasy or enlightenment is a result of challenging the limits of one's body, often through pain (hey sitting ZaZen is definitely NOT an easy experience, LOL). Neon

P.S., Marquis, I want to second, third and fourth how fabulous I thought your post was.